Continued learning in heaven?

[4Horsemen]

Consider something entirely different, outside the box containing your question. Coming from a physics/astronomy/engineering background, I’ll risk this guess about you. It is not simply the learning of things scientific which you enjoy, but even more so, the applications of your knowledge to the solution of problems, as well as the sharing of your knowledge. In that context, what if God meets you at the pearly gates, drapes one spiritual arm over your recently transmogrified shoulder, and says something like,

“Hey, there Nespy! Good to see you, and I want you to know that you are exactly the kind of fellow I’m looking for, someone smart enough to have figured out aforehand that I’ve listened to plenty enough harp strumming. Did you happen to read, Captain Stormfield’s Trip to Heaven? Oh, well— no matter. Just wanted you to know how we all appreciate those who show up and can just skip the re-indoctrination program. No one here wants to teach it anymore, especially to the billions of folks coming in after training in earthly religions. They are so insistent on having things being the way they were taught. The Muslims are the most tiresome, always whining, demanding dinner and virgins. So once again, thanks for coming prepared.”

Of course by this time your face is lit up like a glow worm, and you are wondering which advanced science class you’ll be assigned to first, when God continues. “That was the good news. Now looking at your chart, I see that you’ve studied all kinds of bugs, flying, crawling, swimming, whatever. Exemplary! Now as it turns out, we don’t have any bugs here. However, there’s a big warm moon orbiting a planet your astronomers would call Aldebaran XVII if they knew about it, and we’re already in Stage 4 of life engineering there. Our guys need bugs! Plenty of bugs, but the right kind. Bugs that fit into the environment, do some planet reformation, help spread DNA around, etc. Does that sound like your kind of job?”

God pauses for your reply, but all you can muster is a sorry, “Bug— I mean but, God! I only know what bugs look like and what some of them do. I don’t know how to actually make one!”

“Yes, of course I know,” God replies soothingly. “So you’re not ready for the project just yet. Not a problem, since the last job timeline came in at an estimated 30 million years, assuming the space junk managers can deal with a nasty incoming asteroid. So, not to worry! We’ve got a great little training program that’ll be perfect for you.”

Your smile is back, and you find yourself kind of moving sideways to see through the doorway that God seems to be deliberately blocking. as you say, “Great! Where do I sign up?”

“We’re way ahead of you! There’s a perfect niche already reserved. Michael Behe’s wife is just entering her third trimester, 13th offspring, and we’ve been kind of holding that spot. Don’t know if you’ve heard of Behe. A Catholic microbiologist with just the right attitude, written a couple of books on “Intelligent Design.” He’s figuring things out. Good man, great mind, and a perfect dad for you! You’ll be able to learn from him how critters are built from the inside out.”

“But, but, I don’t want to go back to the USA. The evil capitalists and Republicans are taking over!”

“Ah, yes. I see that you voted for Obama. Nonetheless, there are excellent options. You’ll have to master quantum electrodynamics before you get to your Aldebaran job anyway. Insect brains use it all the time. There’s an excellent little physics program opening up in a comfy North Korean enclave— used to be a gulag, but they’ve installed a toilet recently. We could fill a few other gaps in your education by sending you back as a cute little girl with some guitar-playing talent to give you an edge, maybe even catch the personal attention of their, uh, ‘great leader’…”

Very creative thinking, greylorn. Maybe you’ve read A Travel Guide to Heaven by Anthonly DeStefano. He describes Heaven as a physical place and says the best images of Heaven come from children’s books on the subject – vibrant, colorful, with beautiful artifacts we’ve never seen before, But that experience is awaiting for us when we get our glorified bodies. C.S. Lewis said that the serious business of Heaven is joy.

Following is a quote from the opening titled “A Special Preboarding Announcement:”

"All passengers traveling to our final destination today have been awarded a lifetime’s worth of frequent flyer miles, entitling them to automatic upgrades to first class. Since the flight is very full, we ask that you check the following items at the gate before boarding: gloominess, stuffiness, cynicism, pessimism, intellectual snobbery, closed-mindedness, self-righteousnesss and prejudice against God or religion.

Please be assured you can retrieve this property upon your return–if you wish."

IMHO, you don’t get a return trip. Like the old beer commercial says, “You only go around once!”

 

[Spirithound]

We can’t imagine the state of bliss and eternal happiness that would be but, from an earthly perspective, which is all we have, I wonder about the following: “In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation.” (also from the Catechism)

My hope is that I can obtain the promises of Christ and reach heaven and, while there, worship Him directly and also continue to learn about God’s magnificent design of the universe and all of its laws. I would find the learning process so much more enjoyable than a done deal where all at once God shows me how everything works . On the other hand, it would also be great if He opened my mind so that I could continue learning those things that are well beyond my meager faculties on earth.

I am certain that we will continue to grow in knowledge and increased perfection in Heaven (of course, to get into Heaven, we must be perfect, like a glass that is full of water, but that does not preclude the growing of the glass once in Heaven). I have been considering for a time whether learning implies a prior state of true privation. I am not certain that a state of true privation can exist in Heaven. For example, a state of true privation would be the inability to move. I don’t know whether not knowing something can be comparable.

It does seem to me, however, that the process by which we learn, here on Earth does have a state of true privation, precisely in the exertion required to solve a difficult problem. I believe that the process by which we learn in Heaven will be much more efficient than our Earthly process.

I sense your worry over this detail because I also obtain great satisfaction on solving a difficult problem, however I think that this is an example of “happiness by degrees”, or happiness amplified because of some prior frustration. This certainly will not be the type of happiness in Heaven.

So, by way of some muddled summatory remarks, I believe that in Heaven, our minds will be much more efficient; no searching for the answer deep within the forgotten realm of the 14’s multiplication tables. I believe that not having some information is not inconsistent with a perfect state, and so the acquisition of knowledge is possibly possible in Heaven. So, I believe that the acquisition of knowledge will be effortless, but that’s ok, because the true pleasure is not in the process, but the end-state.

 

[greylorn]

Very creative thinking, greylorn. Maybe you’ve read A Travel Guide to Heaven by Anthonly DeStefano. He describes Heaven as a physical place and says the best images of Heaven come from children’s books on the subject – vibrant, colorful, with beautiful artifacts we’ve never seen before, But that experience is awaiting for us when we get our glorified bodies. C.S. Lewis said that the serious business of Heaven is joy.

Following is a quote from the opening titled “A Special Preboarding Announcement:”

"All passengers traveling to our final destination today have been awarded a lifetime’s worth of frequent flyer miles, entitling them to automatic upgrades to first class. Since the flight is very full, we ask that you check the following items at the gate before boarding: gloominess, stuffiness, cynicism, pessimism, intellectual snobbery, closed-mindedness, self-righteousnesss and prejudice against God or religion.

Please be assured you can retrieve this property upon your return–if you wish."

IMHO, you don’t get a return trip. Like the old beer commercial says, “You only go around once!”

I make it a point never to drink beer that’s advertised in a commercial. Any philosophy that those clowns throw in is only there to get lardbellied nits to buy 3rd rate beer by appealing to their dubious opinion that they have a mind. It could be that the quality of the philosophy you’ve learned by watching beer commercials is just as blah as the beer.

4H—
Of all posters on CAF, you should know better than anyone not to throw an 80mph fastball over the center of the plate. Thanks for the easy straight line! And for the record, I know that you really do take philosophy seriously. Thus the easy pop-up coming back.

 

[greylorn]

Greylorn, you nailed it. That’s precisely my hope for continuing education in heaven. In fact, I enjoyed your tale so much that I felt guilty, and thought, no, it can’t be that way because it would put too much focus on my own pleasure versus worship of God. I do believe that even if “all” heaven consisted of was playing harps to God’s magnificence, that act would somehow place our spirit in a holy ecstasy from which there would be no lack of delight.

Having said that, from a limited human perspective, your description puts substance into the type of experience that I would hope for. As far as Behe, I consider him one of the most original and creative thinkers today in science, in the mold of Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Godel, and all who dared think outside of the box and pursue science for the sake of advancing knowledge rather than solely advancing existing paradigms. And, like Galileo, he’s being made to pay a personal price for daring to expand our horizons. I sent him a note to that effect a couple of years ago to which he responded in all humility.

Oh, about the evil capitalists and Republicans, “forgive them for they know not what they do.”

Peace

nespero,
Your sense of humor will serve you well in future environments! But please stick around this planet awhile. Seems like there’s still work to be done, such as discrediting Richard Dawkins.

 

[tonyrey]

*I think the Beatific Vision will inspire us to be dynamic and creative rather than static and passive. *

In the ways you have mentioned and others we cannot imagine! My point is that the Beatific Vision does not entail a state of spiritual inactivity.

 

[4Horsemen]

I make it a point never to drink beer that’s advertised in a commercial. Any philosophy that those clowns throw in is only there to get lardbellied nits to buy 3rd rate beer by appealing to their dubious opinion that they have a mind. It could be that the quality of the philosophy you’ve learned by watching beer commercials is just as blah as the beer.

Considering all the recent dopey beer commercials, the old one I made a reference to, is probably the least offensive and not really meant to be a profound, philosophical paradigm or even a statement, except to sell beer of course. Besides people generally took it for granted that they only had one life to live.

How about a statement for wine? Here’s one by G.K. Chesterton. I can imagine he’s at a pub talking philosophy, both deep stuff and light, to his closest friends. He opines:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there is music and laughter and good red wine.” The idea, of course, is that Catholics are not droll, pedantic individuals without imagination. I’ll bet Chesterton and his buddies talked of learning in Heaven, allowing the Spirit to fill them with knowledge, understanding and wisdom as they speculate how to view Heaven’s splendors.

4H—
Of all posters on CAF, you should know better than anyone not to throw an 80mph fastball over the center of the plate. Thanks for the easy straight line! And for the record, I know that you really do take philosophy seriously. Thus the easy pop-up coming back.

I’m hoping to improve my ability (maybe in Heaven ) and pitch at 98mph or toss you a curve ball, knuckle ball, whatever. . . I really don’t know a whole lot about baseball, just that you “don’t cry in baseball” (ref. to a movie, A League of Their Own with Tom Hanks as baseball manager during the years of WWII when the men went to war and women’s teams took over the sport, at least temporarily.) I hope I caught the pop-up fly ball. (I’d rather be skating. That involves learning, too, but of a different kind than intellectual. Maybe I’ll be able to do quad jumps with ease and spin for hours, but I kinda like the idea of learning how to do that too when we get our bodies back; I hope I get my own).

Maybe I could get a team together to play hockey. Hope the ice is nice. (How dynamic can we get?)

Are we posters just thinking of Heaven as more earthly satisfaction?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I understand that heaven, to which we all aspire through Christ, is “communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed.” (from the Catechism). We can’t imagine the state of bliss and eternal happiness that would be but, from an earthly perspective, which is all we have, I wonder about the following: “In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation.” (also from the Catechism)

Specifically, I’m retired now but spent my life working in technical/scientific areas. My hope is that I can obtain the promises of Christ and reach heaven and, while there, worship Him directly and also continue to learn about God’s magnificent design of the universe and all of its laws. Since God’s will is reflected not only in our souls but in all of His creation, I wonder if that statement from the Catechism implies that we continue to learn while in heaven. I would find the learning process so much more enjoyable than a done deal where all at once God shows me how everything works . On the other hand, it would also be great if He opened my mind so that I could continue learning those things that are well beyond my meager faculties on earth.

My field is technical/scientific, but the same thing could be asked about music, philosophy, or any other human field of learning.

.

Just thinking … Suppose man in his finest inquisitive and genuine form… was similar to one looking through a small crack in a door.

In the whole room … absolute knowledge of all… engrossed the composition of that room. A complete atmosphere… complete within itself containing all truth & balance in the absolute pure reality of existence. A constant space without relative significance …for it…

Man then peering through the small crack in the door arrives with his relative cubic. He knows theres more , finds ways to discover in consequential trickery, hypothetical pondering and accomplishes much. The need for more ratification in the existence as well acknowledged perfection in that room however …is like a flowing river.

The flowing river gives him purpose in reason…for reason. Graciously trapped in reason man is determined and marvels in attempts to join hands …with the hand which must be.

Some may comprehend the “door open” … With the door open all is then revealed or… all available. A luscious garden of all , conquests or pursuit in beholding such …

It may not be… to behold…
It may only be …to be within… Inside…Now part of the room. A neccesary unique part.

Unique in individual specific , required for all to be…as it will …be.

Can we only find… witness to be… as we attempt witness, in relative available …speculative witness?

If more than a witness , and now a neccesary part within All… desire to be within, is now a lost…from the lost without…

An individually required unique hope… in all to be.
As all …will be.

 

[antunesaa]

To clarify, obviously the human intellect will probably remain too limited to understand everything about the universe. My intention was to show a sort of limitless desire for knowledge, leaving how much is possible and proper to God. Also obviously any fighting with St. Olaf would be without pain or real damage to the body, though I wonder if the special character of the resurrected body were to allow things like temporary, unbloodly, voluntary dismemberment, just for fun so we can play at being Viking shades. I guess probably not.

“What about those in hell, are they capable of learning too?”

Certainly their initial experience of hell would be something of a learning experience I would think. A nasty one. Beyond that, I for one could only blindly speculate. One thing’s for sure, any learning would not be able to make up for the suffering of hell any more than it could add to the joy of heaven.

As I see it, suffering in Hell is the knowledge that you cannot have a glimpse of the Beatific Vision. Although mystics and the Bible sometimes paint it in a very grim way…

 

[4Horsemen]

As I see it, suffering in Hell is the knowledge that you cannot have a glimpse of the Beatific Vision. Although mystics and the Bible sometimes paint it in a very grim way…

Most important is the fact that those in Hell lose the joy of the Beatific Vision, to be sure.

Scripture contains many references to Hell. Jesus called it Gehenna. If you have a Bible concordance, you might look it up to find the references to Hell. A few described are: “Devouring fire,” “Unquenchable fire,” “A furnace of fire,” “Everlasting fire,” “Everlasting punishment,” “A place of torment,” “Fire and brimstone,” “A lake of fire.” Most of those come from the gospels themselves. There are other references from various books of the Bible, including “Degrees of punishment in.” Also, the familiar phrase: “Where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Then there is the vision of Hell to the three children of Fatima, which confirms what Scripture tells us.

The only learning in Hell is that the damned are slaves of the devils according to various mystics. At least one mystic walked through Hell (Sr. Josepha Menendez) and lived to write about it as Jesus and her superiors commanded her to do.

 

[jen_fla]

For my part, I’d like to learn the entire structure and history of the universe down to each particle and Plank time, and also to ride a mammoth, to fight and feast with St. Olaf Valhalla-style, and to run a farm and brewery in Medieval England for a few centuries. I have no idea whether I will be able to do any of these things in heaven, but I feel I would like to because I still cannot imagine the Beatific Vision, and so I still desire to be filled up with finite things. Once I (God willing) have the Beatific Vision though I will understand that none of these things will be able to increase my joy and contentment, since I already have God.

heee! this post makes me quite happy.

 

[jen_fla]

…

How about a statement for wine? Here’s one by G.K. Chesterton. I can imagine he’s at a pub talking philosophy, both deep stuff and light, to his closest friends. He opines:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there is music and laughter and good red wine.” The idea, of course, is that Catholics are not droll, pedantic individuals without imagination. I’ll bet Chesterton and his buddies talked of learning in Heaven, allowing the Spirit to fill them with knowledge, understanding and wisdom as they speculate how to view Heaven’s splendors.

:

hi 4 horsemen. just wanted to mention it was hilaire belloc that wrote that, not gkc.

peace.

 

[greylorn]

Considering all the recent dopey beer commercials, the old one I made a reference to, is probably the least offensive and not really meant to be a profound, philosophical paradigm or even a statement, except to sell beer of course. Besides people generally took it for granted that they only had one life to live.

How about a statement for wine? Here’s one by G.K. Chesterton. I can imagine he’s at a pub talking philosophy, both deep stuff and light, to his closest friends. He opines:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there is music and laughter and good red wine.” The idea, of course, is that Catholics are not droll, pedantic individuals without imagination. I’ll bet Chesterton and his buddies talked of learning in Heaven, allowing the Spirit to fill them with knowledge, understanding and wisdom as they speculate how to view Heaven’s splendors.

Agreed on the relative dopiness of beer commercials, so you caught the pop-up handily. I love the Chesterton quote. Reminds me of many intense discussions over food and wine, back when I had a keeper.

I’m hoping to improve my ability (maybe in Heaven ) and pitch at 98mph or toss you a curve ball, knuckle ball, whatever. . . I really don’t know a whole lot about baseball, just that you “don’t cry in baseball” (ref. to a movie, A League of Their Own with Tom Hanks as baseball manager during the years of WWII when the men went to war and women’s teams took over the sport, at least temporarily.) I hope I caught the pop-up fly ball. (I’d rather be skating. That involves learning, too, but of a different kind than intellectual. Maybe I’ll be able to do quad jumps with ease and spin for hours, but I kinda like the idea of learning how to do that too when we get our bodies back; I hope I get my own).

Maybe I could get a team together to play hockey. Hope the ice is nice. (How dynamic can we get?)

It was a good movie. IMO you won’t get your body back. And given the population distribution, you have a better chance of returning in Zimbabwe (no skating rinks, most likely) than Wisconsin. Unless you’ve not done enough penance, in which case you might go to Canada.

Are we posters just thinking of Heaven as more earthly satisfaction?

Of course! I’ve never met a Catholic or general Christian who didn’t figure on reincarnating in the body they had, (improved significantly), doing all the fun things they did here on earth (except sex, the most fun of all— there seems to be no talk of it).

Most religionists want and expect the same sort of things. Hindus and Buddhists obtain it via reincarnation, Christians via the great resurrection after the second coming. I think Muslims get bodies directly in heaven, else what would they do with their 57 poor virgins? But Mormons have a even better deal, getting to be the God of an entire planet (my understanding).

People just invent whatever they want to believe, then call it revealed truth.

 

[greylorn]

Most important is the fact that those in Hell lose the joy of the Beatific Vision, to be sure.

Scripture contains many references to Hell. Jesus called it Gehenna. If you have a Bible concordance, you might look it up to find the references to Hell. A few described are: “Devouring fire,” “Unquenchable fire,” “A furnace of fire,” “Everlasting fire,” “Everlasting punishment,” “A place of torment,” “Fire and brimstone,” “A lake of fire.” Most of those come from the gospels themselves. There are other references from various books of the Bible, including “Degrees of punishment in.” Also, the familiar phrase: “Where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Then there is the vision of Hell to the three children of Fatima, which confirms what Scripture tells us.

The only learning in Hell is that the damned are slaves of the devils according to various mystics. At least one mystic walked through Hell (Sr. Josepha Menendez) and lived to write about it as Jesus and her superiors commanded her to do.

My personal favorite involves Harvey Keitel as the devil in “Little Nicky,” and involved Hitler’s daily pineapple.

Seriously, IMO “hell” is entirely the invention of vindictive humans who just won’t feel right if the bad guys don’t get their due. It cannot be intelligently reconciled with the image of a loving God widely touted by Christians.

IMO a genuinely loving (and merciful) God would not be vindictive. He would simply send the offensive soul into a state of permanent extinguishment. I.e: non-consciousness.

 

[4Horsemen]

hi 4 horsemen. just wanted to mention it was hilaire belloc that wrote that, not gkc.

peace.

Hi jen fla,

Thanks for the correction. I will note that because I like the quote. As said by various saints and mystics, including St. Teresa of Avila (now don’t quote me on this ), there’s a time for fasting and a time for partying. Actually, I recall her mention of the enjoyment of eating partridge. Not my choice, but it shows the saints were real people, maybe not quite as perfect as their biographers seem to portray them – at least some of the time. Of course, there were whole monasteries devoted to stringent fastings, vigils and silence.

 

[4Horsemen]

Agreed on the relative dopiness of beer commercials, so you caught the pop-up handily. I love the Chesterton quote. Reminds me of many intense discussions over food and wine, back when I had a keeper.

Now we can have intense discussions on CAF and other venues, but not over a beer or wine (or coffee or chocolate?). I know . . . you’d prefer the taste of high quality mushrooms. :coffeeread:

It was a good movie. IMO you won’t get your body back. And given the population distribution, you have a better chance of returning in Zimbabwe (no skating rinks, most likely) than Wisconsin. Unless you’ve not done enough penance, in which case you might go to Canada.

(LOL! But there are a lot more rinks in Canada. The government is improving I hear.)

Heaven, of course, for a Christian is unity with God. All else is speculative. Our purpose on earth is to prepare ourselves for that wonderful meeting by acquiring virtues so we will be adorned properly. The saint who was most virtuous is the Mother of Jesus – Mother of God – and we can imitate her fiat, her “yes” to God.

Of course! I’ve never met a Catholic or general Christian who didn’t figure on reincarnating in the body they had, (improved significantly), doing all the fun things they did here on earth (except sex, the most fun of all— there seems to be no talk of it).

Christians just follow Christ’s lead. He resurrected with a glorified body, so we can believe that we will as He is the Good Shepherd leading His sheep. Jesus even said in the gospels that in Heaven there is no marrying:

[gotquestions.org/marriage-heaven.html](http://www.gotquestions.org/marriage-heaven.html)

Question: “Will there be marriage in heaven?”

Answer: The Bible tells us, “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30). This was Jesus’ answer in response to a question concerning a woman who had been married multiple times in her life —whom would she be married to in heaven (Matthew 22:23-28)? Evidently, there will be no such thing as marriage in heaven. This does not mean that a husband and wife will no longer know each other in heaven. This also does not mean that a husband and wife could not still have a close relationship in heaven. What it does seem to indicate, though, is that a husband and wife will no longer be married in heaven.

(READ THE REST!)

But there will be eating and drinking, as Jesus showed us after the Resurrection when He ate a piece of fish on the shore of Lake Tiberius, I believe it was. Also, at the Last Supper, He tells his Apostles, "I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

Most religionists want and expect the same sort of things. Hindus and Buddhists obtain it via reincarnation, Christians via the great resurrection after the second coming. I think Muslims get bodies directly in heaven, else what would they do with their 57 poor virgins? But Mormons have a even better deal, getting to be the God of an entire planet (my understanding).

People just invent whatever they want to believe, then call it revealed truth.

But we have the God of ALL THINGS who died out of love for us to open Heaven and resurrected as proof of His divinity. I think the Muslims believe their bodies and souls stay in the grave until the resurrection. (I’d have to check on that). And they get 72 virgins. Their idea of heaven is carnal. Mormons must be Trekkies or avid Star Wars fans.
(I wonder what Romney really believes.)

 

[4Horsemen]

My personal favorite involves Harvey Keitel as the devil in “Little Nicky,” and involved Hitler’s daily pineapple.

What year did that movie come out?

Seriously, IMO “hell” is entirely the invention of vindictive humans who just won’t feel right if the bad guys don’t get their due. It cannot be intelligently reconciled with the image of a loving God widely touted by Christians.

First of all, I want to add to the previous post about sex in Heaven. The joys and experiences in Heaven will far outweigh the excitement of God’s gift to us on earth. IMO, it’ll be like something the soul experiences that the body can’t experience or the mind imagine. For the saints, Heaven begins on earth, and God often showers some of His other-worldly gifts on them so that they want more and form a deeper relationship with Him.

As for Hell, there have been threads with varying questions about Hell, most with the idea that a loving God would not be capable of punishing someone for all eternity. Most of the answers reflect the idea that God is a just Judge as well as a loving Father. In fact, He is like an earthly Father in that He disciplines “those whom He loves,” we, His children. Since He loves all of us, He disciplines all. He tries us as “gold in fire.” If we don’t produce good fruit (as the fig tree He cursed on earth), we are thrown into the fire. Unlike the tree, we can choose to produce good or evil in this world. If we choose evil and refuse to repent, we damn ourselves.

IMO a genuinely loving (and merciful) God would not be vindictive. He would simply send the offensive soul into a state of permanent extinguishment. I.e: non-consciousness.

But our souls are created to live in eternity. They cannot be extinguished. Would you really want that? Here on this earth we have a chance to make right or wrong choices, and we can win everylasting happiness. To be extinguished is not a choice – none of the above. Just because a soul chooses evil and ends up in Hell doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love that person anymore, for God’s love never changes. The person who is condemned to Hell chooses this alternative to happiness with God. If God would extinguish someone, that would mean He didn’t ever love that person, or any person, for that matter. It would be an act of hatred, but since God is love, hatred is impossible for Him.

 

[jen_fla]

Hi jen fla,

Thanks for the correction. I will note that because I like the quote. As said by various saints and mystics, including St. Teresa of Avila (now don’t quote me on this ), there’s a time for fasting and a time for partying. Actually, I recall her mention of the enjoyment of eating partridge. Not my choice, but it shows the saints were real people, maybe not quite as perfect as their biographers seem to portray them – at least some of the time. Of course, there were whole monasteries devoted to stringent fastings, vigils and silence.

well if partying is eating partridge (you mean the bird? ) then i am in trouble!

i highly recommend reading, The Bad Catholic’s Guide to Wine, Whiskey, & Song: A Spirited Look at Catholic Life & Lore from the Apocalypse to Zinfandel by john zmirak and denise matychowiak.

 

[4Horsemen]

well if partying is eating partridge (you mean the bird? ) then i am in trouble!

i highly recommend reading, The Bad Catholic’s Guide to Wine, Whiskey, & Song: A Spirited Look at Catholic Life & Lore from the Apocalypse to Zinfandel by john zmirak and denise matychowiak.

Now that sounds like a good read, especially on vacation in a hammock by the lake in beautiful northern Wisconsin. I’ll check out the book. Thanks!

 

[jen_fla]

Now that sounds like a good read, especially on vacation in a hammock by the lake in beautiful northern Wisconsin. I’ll check out the book. Thanks!

no problem. :tiphat:

 

[greylorn]

…
But our souls are created to live in eternity. They cannot be extinguished. Would you really want that? Here on this earth we have a chance to make right or wrong choices, and we can win everylasting happiness. To be extinguished is not a choice – none of the above. Just because a soul chooses evil and ends up in Hell doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love that person anymore, for God’s love never changes. The person who is condemned to Hell chooses this alternative to happiness with God. If God would extinguish someone, that would mean He didn’t ever love that person, or any person, for that matter. It would be an act of hatred, but since God is love, hatred is impossible for Him.

Curious logic. Getting rid of me would represent hatred, but torturing me for an eternity would be an act of love? What kind of mushrooms have you been eating?

Intelligent, caring pet owners terminate their animals when the critter is irreparably sick, injured, or in perpetual pain. They do this as an act of love. Stupid, selfish pet owners keep their animals alive and in constant pain until the critter gives it up, then talk about how much they loved the poor beast.

One day a great dane jumped out of some bushes in front of my car, ending up terminally injured but alive. I located the owner, an idiot who did not think that leash laws applied to her, and after she spent a few minutes calling me filthy names, I offered to shoot her dog for her, so as to put the poor, dying animal out of its misery. She said no, because she wanted bowser to be with her as long as possible. IMO she was a stupid, cruel, selfish and self-centered jerk who should never be allowed to keep a pet.

You seem to be modeling your God-concept in the likeness of that jerk. That’s why I have a different God-concept, one who is not so vindictive that he will torture me for an eternity simply because I did not live up to his standards, something I am ill-equipped to do.

Finally, your notion seems to be that the soul cannot be extinguished. That is illogical. If God created the soul, God can uncreate it. You’ve studied Aquinas, and so you must be able to find an applicable Thomian principle, like ‘what’s not in the cause can’t be in the effect.’ Something along those lines.

Moreover, you demonstrate every night that the soul is effectively extinguished, during normal sleep. If that doesn’t work for you, study up on anesthesia. If the brain’s chemical mix, or a synthetic mixture injected into your bloodstream can render you totally unconscious, surely an all-mighty God can find a way to manage it.