In both the jurisdictions I have knowledge of, confirmation by a bishop, in apostolic succession, is required. Theoretically, this could include a Lutheran, if from the Scandinavian Churches that did not lose succession. But, generally, confirmation would be required, Lutherans and Methodists not possessing succession.Can any of the Continuing Anglicans on CAF answer this question? When a Lutheran or Methodist who have been confirmed within their denominations come into a Continuing Anglican church, must they be re-confirmed or are their prior confirmations accepted?
Thanks for any information.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
GKC,In both the jurisdictions I have knowledge of, confirmation by a bishop, in apostolic succession, is required. Theoretically, this could include a Lutheran, if from the Scandinavian Churches that did not lose succession. But, generally, confirmation would be required, Lutherans and Methodists not possessing succession.
But if you think I’m going to generalize about even the Continuum…nope.
GKC
Even we sloppy Episcopalians confirm Lutherans and Methodists (my wife was confirmed last fall). Where we differ from some at least of the Continuers is that we no longer require confirmation as a condition for admission to the Eucharist.Can any of the Continuing Anglicans on CAF answer this question? When a Lutheran or Methodist who have been confirmed within their denominations come into a Continuing Anglican church, must they be re-confirmed or are their prior confirmations accepted?
Thanks for any information.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
Variable. Generally, I’d say confirmation, in apostolic succession, is required, or the old historical stop-gap loophole of ready and desirous of being confirmed. But my point about generalizing is that even given that the Continuum is somewhat homogeneous, on the Anglo-Catholic side, I still hesitate to make a general assessment of it.GKC,
Thanks for the information. No this has nothing to do with the Continuum. There have been some questions raised on the issue of confirmation and I was just wondering what the actual policies of Continuing Anglican groups are towards accepting other denomination’s validity of confirmation.
God Bless
Bernadette
What if a Lutheran were confirmed by an ELCA pastor who is in succession as a result of the ordination arrangement with the TEC?In both the jurisdictions I have knowledge of, confirmation by a bishop, in apostolic succession, is required. Theoretically, this could include a Lutheran, if from the Scandinavian Churches that did not lose succession. But, generally, confirmation would be required, Lutherans and Methodists not possessing succession.
But if you think I’m going to generalize about even the Continuum…nope.
GKC
That is definitely an interesting question, Jon. Do you know if any of the Continuing Anglicans will recognize validity in the TEC?What if a Lutheran were confirmed by an ELCA pastor who is in succession as a result of the ordination arrangement with the TEC?
Jon
Confirmed by such a Lutheran bishop? I am not conversant with the ELCA/TEC arrangement. Does it involve Episcopal bishops participating in Lutheran bishops’ consecrations? If so, it would require some consideration of form and intent.What if a Lutheran were confirmed by an ELCA pastor who is in succession as a result of the ordination arrangement with the TEC?
Jon
If you mean the validity of Orders in TEC, that would require a case by case consideration, of any bishop’s episcopal lines, given TEC’s current policy of trying to consecrate women.That is definitely an interesting question, Jon. Do you know if any of the Continuing Anglicans will recognize validity in the TEC?
In Christ,
Andrew
Pastor Gary might be able to better answer. It has been a while since I was ELCA, but what I remember is that at least one Episcopal Bishop in succession is involved in Lutheran ordination.Confirmed by such a Lutheran bishop? I am not conversant with the ELCA/TEC arrangement. Does it involve Episcopal bishops participating in Lutheran bishops’ consecrations? If so, it would require some consideration of form and intent.
GKC
I take it that this means 1 Episcopal bishop, who did this once? More info would be required. Was the Lutheran being ordained, as a pastor? Or consecrated as a bishop?Pastor Gary might be able to better answer. It has been a while since I was ELCA, but what I remember is that at least one Episcopal Bishop in succession is involved in Lutheran ordination.
Jon
I think it is pastors. I’ll try to research it more. And I understand the complication of female prebyters and bishops.I take it that this means 1 Episcopal bishop, who did this once? More info would be required. Was the Lutheran being ordained, as a pastor? Or consecrated as a bishop?
GKC
If a pastor, then the participation of a (putative) valid Episcopal bishop would pass valid priestly orders, to that one individual, valid form, matter and intent being assumed. But if that individual were to become a Lutheran bishop, unless his consecrators again included a bishop in apostolic succession, the Lutheran bishop does not possess valid episcopal orders. I think.I think it is pastors. I’ll try to research it more. And I understand the complication of female prebyters and bishops.
Jon
If a pastor, then the participation of a (putative) valid Episcopal bishop would pass valid priestly orders, to that one individual, valid form, matter and intent being assumed. But if that individual were to become a Lutheran bishop, unless his consecrators again included a bishop in apostolic succession, the Lutheran bishop does not possess valid episcopal orders. I think.
GKC, not a canon lawyer.
The agreement we signed with the Lutherans stipulated that an Episcopal bishop would always be involved in Lutheran consecrations, so that after a certain point all Lutheran ordinations would be done by people with the historic succession. That point wouldn’t be reached immediately, though, and we entered into fully communion without waiting for that point. This was, I believe, a compromise in response to the initial rejection of the agreement by Lutherans owing to pressure from their low-church wing. Our Anglo-Catholics, of course, were very perturbed by this. My former rector (who later left TEC, and was ACA last I heard, though his parish isn’t listed on their website anymore) certainly didn’t like it.If a pastor, then the participation of a (putative) valid Episcopal bishop would pass valid priestly orders, to that one individual, valid form, matter and intent being assumed. But if that individual were to become a Lutheran bishop, unless his consecrators again included a bishop in apostolic succession, the Lutheran bishop does not possess valid episcopal orders. I think.
GKC, not a canon lawyer.
Thanks. I now know more than I did. I would be perturbed, too.The agreement we signed with the Lutherans stipulated that an Episcopal bishop would always be involved in Lutheran consecrations, so that after a certain point all Lutheran ordinations would be done by people with the historic succession. That point wouldn’t be reached immediately, though, and we entered into fully communion without waiting for that point. This was, I believe, a compromise in response to the initial rejection of the agreement by Lutherans owing to pressure from their low-church wing. Our Anglo-Catholics, of course, were very perturbed by this. My former rector (who later left TEC, and was ACA last I heard, though his parish isn’t listed on their website anymore) certainly didn’t like it.
Edwin
Versatile, but within limits.Not a canon lawyer, but a comic book, Enola Gay, and aircraft expert!