Continuing marital relations when divorcing

[miguel]

Marital intercourse is a renewal of the wedding vows. But your husband wants to divorce you; he’s not renewing his wedding vows (to be faithful until death) by having sex with you. He’s using you. I agree with most of the previous posters, he’s using you and you should stop having sex with him.

Furthermore, consider the remifications of getting pregnant now. If ever there was a reason to abstain, your pending divorce would be it. It’s not fair to bring a child into being when his father has already declared his intention to abandon you.

You answered a different question than the OP asked. I may be naive. But how do you know he won’t be faithful to his wedding vows? You jumped to that conclusion. It is also possible that he will be faithful (i.e., will refrain from having sex with anyone else). It is possible for people to live apart and be faithful. It sounds to me like she is trying to heal/save her marriage. Sex is an expression of love for her spouse. There is no sin in that. People assume he’s using her from the little bit she said. If he is, that is a sin on his part. But she can still choose to love him anyway. Isn’t that what the Christian life is all about? We love people, even when they don’t love us. Kids show ingratitude to parents all the time. Does that mean parents should stop loving their kids? We can’t control what other people do to us. We can choose to love them no matter what they do to us. Love heals. God can work miracles with love. He can’t work with bitterness or unforgiveness.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Vivienne I had advice from both my priest and my lawyer to file. So, I don’t really think that’s an issue. I don’t know who he would claim that to and he wouldn’t claim it anyway.
As for your first piece of advice, I think it’s probably good advice.

I think you got bad legal advice, and your priest is not a lawyer (or if he is, he shouldn’t be advising you in that capacity).

I would highly suggest that you seek help from another lawyer and you may need to file a malpractice action against your first lawyer. YOU should not be the one to file the papers if your husband wants the divorce. Period. I can almost guarantee that your husband will use the fact that you filed the papers against you if there is any type of settlement requested or even child custody agreements (I hope children aren’t involved). Never ever underestimate people when it comes to legal actions.

As for being in sin if you continue to have sexual intercourse with your husband…You should talk to a holy priest to hear his counsel (probably not the one you and your husband spoke to). My best guess is that YOU would not be in sin, but it would not be a wise idea to keep doing this. You already know that your spouse is using you for sex, and if he is insistent upon a divorce, it is not very likely that having marital relations with you is going to change his mind. After all, presumably you were having sex in the marriage and that didn’t stop him from demanding that divorce papers be filed…

Please also see a doctor, you stated that you were depressed and that is a terrible time to be going through these legal proceedings. You will need support and possibly medication in order to be able to make the right decisions for your OWN future, not your husband’s future. Having lived with chronic depression - I realize that the 2 points I gave you above, especially that of getting another lawyer - will feel about as daunting as swimming the Atlantic, but act as if you are strong, and just do it. If that is the only thing you can do for an entire day, make the phone call. If it’s a case of money, call you local law college and ask them for help. Many times there is pro bono (no charge) work done by law students, and your case should not be complicated.

You will be in my prayers.

:grouphug:

 

[BlueEyedLady]

DO NOT WITHDRAW YOUR DIVORCE FILING!!!

This is why legal advice should not be thrown around online. When it comes to property rights, support, custody, and access to assets very frequently the person who files has more control. That’s why her attorney advised her to file even if she wanted to save the marriage. Even if she fails she retains control, instead of giving it up for what may be a moot cause. Most divorce attorneys recommend this in most circumstances. If you don’t believe me do a quick Google.

To the OP: Don’t move out of the house. But stop letting him use you for sex.

 

[KCT]

He wants a divorce. He wants to have intercourse with you.

Have you asked him why he wants to continue physical relations?

 

[nodito]

You answered a different question than the OP asked. I may be naive. But how do you know he won’t be faithful to his wedding vows? You jumped to that conclusion. It is also possible that he will be faithful (i.e., will refrain from having sex with anyone else). It is possible for people to live apart and be faithful.

In the Catholic marriage ceremony, the husband says, “I, (name), take you, (name), to be my wife. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.” The Church allows separation and divorce under certain circumstances, but in this case, it sounds as if the husbands simply wants a divorce, even despite the protests of a wife who clearly wants to work on the marriage. This is indeed a violation of the wedding vows to love and honor one’s spouse. He is not being true to her in good times and in bad by seeking a divorce.

It sounds to me like she is trying to heal/save her marriage. Sex is an expression of love for her spouse. There is no sin in that. People assume he’s using her from the little bit she said. If he is, that is a sin on his part. But she can still choose to love him anyway. Isn’t that what the Christian life is all about? We love people, even when they don’t love us. Kids show ingratitude to parents all the time. Does that mean parents should stop loving their kids? We can’t control what other people do to us. We can choose to love them no matter what they do to us. Love heals. God can work miracles with love. He can’t work with bitterness or unforgiveness.

She absolutely should continue to love him, and sex is indeed an expression of love. But one of the primary ends of sexual intimacy is the begetting of children. As Catholic Christians, we are called to prudently consider when it might be unwise to have children. Is it in fact the loving thing to do to one’s future children to have them conceived, not in an act of generous love between spouses committed to each other for life, but rather, in an act of desperation to save a marriage on the cusp of divorce? Divorce is a travesty, and in my opinion, the OP should refrain from having intercourse with her husband until she can be assured that he will honor his vows to love and honor her all the days of his life, and not abandon her to single motherhood.

 

[Lady_Love]

I would NOT have sex with him! Sex is a renewal of wedding vows says Fr. Kevin Martin. Your husband is not renewing anything with you by filing a divorce. He is breaking a covenant. Just like we are not allowed to go to communion in a state of mortal sin, neither should you make a sexual communion with your husband until he repents! Jesus is the example, follow Him.

 

[miguel]

In the Catholic marriage ceremony, the husband says, “I, (name), take you, (name), to be my wife. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.” The Church allows separation and divorce under certain circumstances, but in this case, it sounds as if the husbands simply wants a divorce, even despite the protests of a wife who clearly wants to work on the marriage. This is indeed a violation of the wedding vows to love and honor one’s spouse. He is not being true to her in good times and in bad by seeking a divorce.

We don’t know the whole story. He is seeking a divorce, but she also made the same promises to love him and maybe he is so exasparated at being unloved that he wants out. We don’t know enough about this to jump to any conclusions.

She absolutely should continue to love him, and sex is indeed an expression of love. But one of the primary ends of sexual intimacy is the begetting of children. As Catholic Christians, we are called to prudently consider when it might be unwise to have children. Is it in fact the loving thing to do to one’s future children to have them conceived, not in an act of generous love between spouses committed to each other for life, but rather, in an act of desperation to save a marriage on the cusp of divorce? Divorce is a travesty, and in my opinion, the OP should refrain from having intercourse with her husband until she can be assured that he will honor his vows to love and honor her all the days of his life, and not abandon her to single motherhood.

All good points. But the question was “Is it a sin?” She’s married to the guy. It is not a sin. It may be unwise given her precarious situation. Or it could be the wisest thing in the world for her to do to try to save her marriage. She has to decide that for herself.

 

[miguel]

DO NOT WITHDRAW YOUR DIVORCE FILING!!!

This is why legal advice should not be thrown around online. When it comes to property rights, support, custody, and access to assets very frequently the person who files has more control. That’s why her attorney advised her to file even if she wanted to save the marriage. Even if she fails she retains control, instead of giving it up for what may be a moot cause. Most divorce attorneys recommend this in most circumstances. If you don’t believe me do a quick Google.

To the OP: Don’t move out of the house. But stop letting him use you for sex.

This is worldly advice. The world is all about control. I would argue it’s not even good worldly advice. Who gains by getting lawyers involved? Lawyers. Your bank account becomes their bank account. Why give these people a huge chunk of your money? If the OP and her husband are having sex, it sounds like they are at least civil to each other. If it’s heading for divorce, why not work out the basics of an agreement on a settlement before paying 200/hour/lawyer to 2 staffs of lawyers and letting that drag on for months or years? If it’s definitely heading for divorce, you can save yourselves big bucks by working this stuff out on your own (or at least most of it) before you get lawyers involved. Then you can get them in to put the finishing legal touches on it. And instead of divorce, you might consider legal separation. Legal separation could allow you to maintain your spouse (or vise versa) on your employer provided medical insurance, where divorce may not. Whoever ends up paying alimony will also have to provide additional funds to maintain this coverage with a divorce, but not necessarily with a legal separation. Some things to consider. Lawyers know how to get spouses angry at each other. Don’t get them involved until you’re ready to settle.

 

[nodito]

But the question was “Is it a sin?” She’s married to the guy. It is not a sin. It may be unwise given her precarious situation. Or it could be the wisest thing in the world for her to do to try to save her marriage. She has to decide that for herself.

The question was also, “Is this wrong?” Even if there’s no sin on the OP’s part, having sex with one’s husband while he’s proceeding with divorce may very well be wrong. The same way that a mistake is wrong. But I also think it does an injustice to any children conceived during the marital act.

Of course the decision is hers, and I’m not pretending otherwise. But she came here looking for advice and I gave mine.

 

[Consoler]

I was advised to file because it would give me more control in the proceedings. I took the advice. I moved out when he refused to work things out. I continued to visit him and talk to him and we talked to the priest but he still refused so I filed.
Miguel, I appreciate your perspective, it’s the closest to what is in my heart. I don’t know if it is wise either…but what else is there to do but love? I’ll continue to pray but the only thing that I’ve been shown through prayer is to forgive him and love him. I was shown that very powerfully. Maybe this isn’t the best way…I’ll continue to pray and hopefully a miracle will happen or I will be led in a different direction.

 

[Consoler]

He wants a divorce. He wants to have intercourse with you.

Have you asked him why he wants to continue physical relations?

He just said that he thinks about it all the time and he knows that I like to have sex a lot. Not to get too graphic or personal but one of the big issues in the marriage was that I wanted to have sex a lot more often than he did. So, I took it as a good sign. Before that, he wasn’t engaged with me about anything except the business of splitting property up and money issues.

 

[miguel]

I was advised to file because it would give me more control in the proceedings. I took the advice. I moved out when he refused to work things out. I continued to visit him and talk to him and we talked to the priest but he still refused so I filed.
Miguel, I appreciate your perspective, it’s the closest to what is in my heart. I don’t know if it is wise either…but what else is there to do but love? I’ll continue to pray but the only thing that I’ve been shown through prayer is to forgive him and love him. I was shown that very powerfully. Maybe this isn’t the best way…I’ll continue to pray and hopefully a miracle will happen or I will be led in a different direction.

I wish you the best. Sometimes God allows these trials to give us hearts of flesh. Or to bring us closer to himself.

 

[hurting]

Shana I’m aware that that is most likely his mentality. I’m not going to withdraw the papers because there’s no point in doing that unless he changes his mind. I in no way am agreeing to the divorce. My priest advised me to file after my husband and I talked to him about everything. All I’m asking is if it is a sin on my part to try to keep us together in this way since everything else has failed.

Pardon me for being so obtuse, but on what grounds did your priest advise you to file for divorce?

Not only do you not have to get divorced, you may be committing a grievous sin by doing so.

Something does not add up here.

 

[hurting]

I would be asking that lawyer why I should be filing when he wants the divorce. It truly doesn’t make any sense. He’s not also your husband’s lawyer, is he?

The lawyer is advising her to file because when the only tool in the toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

 

[hurting]

This is worldly advice. The world is all about control. I would argue it’s not even good worldly advice. Who gains by getting lawyers involved? Lawyers. Your bank account becomes their bank account. Why give these people a huge chunk of your money? If the OP and her husband are having sex, it sounds like they are at least civil to each other. If it’s heading for divorce, why not work out the basics of an agreement on a settlement before paying 200/hour/lawyer to 2 staffs of lawyers and letting that drag on for months or years? If it’s definitely heading for divorce, you can save yourselves big bucks by working this stuff out on your own (or at least most of it) before you get lawyers involved. Then you can get them in to put the finishing legal touches on it. And instead of divorce, you might consider legal separation. Legal separation could allow you to maintain your spouse (or vise versa) on your employer provided medical insurance, where divorce may not. Whoever ends up paying alimony will also have to provide additional funds to maintain this coverage with a divorce, but not necessarily with a legal separation. Some things to consider. Lawyers know how to get spouses angry at each other. Don’t get them involved until you’re ready to settle.

The attorneys are interested parties to the process and will seek to keep the issue stirred up. The OP needs to seek the advice from her bishop at this point.

A legal separation is going to be a lot like a divorce.

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello consoler,
I am very sorry you are having to go through this. It is extemely encouraging, however, that you are concerned for your soul enough to question whether or not the sexual relationship is now sinful. I don’t really have any answer there, but out of love for your soul I am going to echo what Hurting said.

Just because a priest advised you to file a civil divorce does not make it right. There are priests advising raped women to have abortions and priests advising people to follow their consciences and contracept if they think it is okay.

A civil divorce can only be tolerated in certain rare cases when it remains the “only possible way” of providing needed civil protections.

I pray you will read the Catechism and canon law on this and ask if a legal separation is an alternative in your state. It is in the vast majority of states.

But I do not even see what the grounds are for your separation (legal or otherwise) to be morally licit. Maybe I missed something? If a separation is not morally licit then it is a grave sin. Persisting in grave sin leads to death. We are here to help each other to life!

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[Consoler]

My husband wants a divorce and he won’t budge. Like I said I’ve tried everything. He absolutely does not want to be married. A legal separation is not in the cards with him. If it were up to me I would not be getting a divorce, but I don’t see what I can do if he doesn’t want to stay married??
He isn’t Catholic and he’s not baptized. He doesn’t see things the way I do. And even though we went through prep and he seemed like he understood what a Catholic marriage means it’s like none of that ever happened now. I’m at a loss at this point, that’s why I’m trying desperate measures. I’ll try to talk to a different priest about everything if I can.
I talked to the deacon who married us and went through marriage prep with us. He didn’t raise any objections to me filing and he seems to think I should get an annulment.

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello Consoler,
My heart aches for you. I can feel through your words the pain you are in.

It should be a huge red flag for you that the very deacon who married you is advising that you try to get an annulment.

The fact that your husband wants a civil divorce does not make it okay for you to file a civil divorce.

It makes sense to find a priest who holds that you cannot civilly divorce your husband and also talk to the priest who says you can. Meet several times with each one and read the Catechism. Pray with all the sincerity you can for strength to follow Him wherever He leads. For strength to pick up and carry whatever cross is handed to you.
A great short little book is The Gift of Self. It can be found on Mary’s Advocates website for $8. Read about St. Monica also. Everyone on here and the priests you talk to can guide you but we are likely not Saints. Monica most certainly was.
You and your husband are in my prayers.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[Rence]

My husband wants a divorce and he won’t budge. Like I said I’ve tried everything. He absolutely does not want to be married. A legal separation is not in the cards with him. If it were up to me I would not be getting a divorce, but I don’t see what I can do if he doesn’t want to stay married??
He isn’t Catholic and he’s not baptized. He doesn’t see things the way I do. And even though we went through prep and he seemed like he understood what a Catholic marriage means it’s like none of that ever happened now. I’m at a loss at this point, that’s why I’m trying desperate measures. I’ll try to talk to a different priest about everything if I can.
I talked to the deacon who married us and went through marriage prep with us. He didn’t raise any objections to me filing and he seems to think I should get an annulment.

You can’t force him to remain married to you if he refuses. It’s would be healthier for you to get on with your life, even if you’re alone. You will have to live as if you were still married (can’t date anyone). You need to talk to a priest to see if you have grounds for an annullment. It seems to me from what you said, tha he had no intention of having a Sacramental marriage from the beginning. But a priest, after having talked wtih you, would know for sure.

But you can’t even appeal to the diocese for an annulment without getting a divorce first. The diocese will require it. So keep that in mind.

 

[Consoler]

Honestly I think his opinion that I would get an annulment is probably right. I haven’t gone into all the details about everything that’s happened. We only got married Sept 1st. There are some issues about my husband hiding things from me and lying from before we were married. It’s complicated. I don’t want to think that our marriage isn’t valid and it isn’t like I can just sit here and proclaim that it isn’t. But there is good reason to think so.
The only thing I’ve been focused on though is just not getting divorced, because that’s the only thing that I can try to do right now, but nothing has stopped his determination to get one. I talked to the priest and the deacon. Neither of them said anything about it being wrong in this situation for me to file. I never had any thought that it would be wrong either.