Continuous gravely illicit Masses- why is nothing done?

[jonkknox]

I am thinking in particular about a parish that I was just told about- Christ the King in Pleasant Hill, California (Oakland diocese).

On the parish’s website, there is a page for transcripts of the homilies given at Mass. Right there in plain, documented sight is a “homily” given by Mary Ann Mattos. Homilies given by laymen seems to be quite the norm at this parish. I thought that this practice has been strictly forbidden on numerous occasions! Why then, can there be such a blatant disregard for the laws of the Church? I have a mind to call the parish office tomorrow and ask them what the deal is. After that, call the office of the bishop. It can’t be innocent ignorance, can it? I hope it is.

 

[aimee]

I wish I knew why they did this…but I do see it happening…but whats being done? I don’t know

 

[Bultaco]

I am thinking in particular about a parish that I was just told about- Christ the King in Pleasant Hill, California (Oakland diocese).

On the parish’s website, there is a page for transcripts of the homilies given at Mass. Right there in plain, documented sight is a “homily” given by Mary Ann Mattos. Homilies given by laymen seems to be quite the norm at this parish. I thought that this practice has been strictly forbidden on numerous occasions! Why then, can there be such a blatant disregard for the laws of the Church? I have a mind to call the parish office tomorrow and ask them what the deal is. After that, call the office of the bishop. It can’t be innocent ignorance, can it? I hope it is.

The website doesn’t mention if the homilies were actually given by the people listed, or it could be a matter of semantics. The homilies could well have been crafted by a layperson and then preached by a priest. Alternately they might have been a message presented with the priest’s permission just before the closing prayer (licit) and not really a homily at all.

Bishop Allen Vigneron of Oakland is a wonderfully orthodox and capable man. Jump down from your high-horse for a moment and give him a real chance to guide this diocese out of the dark. It took a long time for it to get in the shape it’s in today.

Most of all pray for him and get involved.

P.S. Preaching by a layperson during the Mass while a serious liturgical abuse is neither Graviora delicta nor a Grave Matter per Redemptionis Sacramentum from what I gather.

 

[jonkknox]

I don’t know… it says homily by [name], and that one in particular by Miss Mattos mentions “other young women” and other telling sings that she delivered it.

If they were just called homilies but actually given right before the closing prayer, even this is not supposed to be a norm according to Redemptionis Sacramentum.

And His Excellency may very well be a holy and orthodox bishop. That is why I said I hope it is innocent ignorance of the situation. I don’t think that I am sitting high on my horse, though. I am just a lowly convert, recently brought into the Church. I love the “Catholic-ness” of the Church, so I am shocked to see such grave abuses.

 

[Bultaco]

I don’t know… it says homily by [name], and that one in particular by Miss Mattos mentions “other young women” and other telling sings that she delivered it.

If they were just called homilies but actually given right before the closing prayer, even this is not supposed to be a norm according to Redemptionis Sacramentum.

And His Excellency may very well be a holy and orthodox bishop. That is why I said I hope it is innocent ignorance of the situation. I don’t think that I am sitting high on my horse, though. I am just a lowly convert, recently brought into the Church. I love the “Catholic-ness” of the Church, so I am shocked to see such grave abuses.

Who is suggesting that is a “norm” at that parish? Certainly not the website you referenced.

 

[jonkknox]

The fact that I counted at least 5 homilies (and they are called homilies- which means they aren’t even the preaching at a later time in the Mass) as opposed to never once hearing a layman address the people in such a reflection at any of the Masses I have been to.

 

[otjm]

Perhaps a little perspective helps.

There are somwhere between about 18,600 and 19,100 parishes in the US. I have no idea how many world wide.

Shock of shocks, neither the Pope not the dicasteries in Rome know exactly what is going on in each parish in the world, or in the US, or even in your dicocese. In fact, none of them even know what all is going on in the dioceses throughout the world, or the US… etc. and taking it even further, they have know idea what is going on in the countries… They do know some of the things that are going on; they do hear of isolated issues; but the details, most likely not. I am not suggesting that they are a bunch of ignoramuses; only that we live in a parish and see what is happening, and we presume that others see it too. Most bishops - even the really great ones - don’t know a whole lot about what is going on in any given parish under their command.

And while the Church is not a human institution, it is and institution of humans, and like other humans, it is prone to bureaucracy.

Just as you can be filtered from the pastor, you will be filtered from the bishop, who is the one who can make changes. And if you think that filtering is a problem, try dealing with Rome.

We now have something like about 40 years since Vatican 2 took place. Diocesan headquarters have been innundated starting not long after the changes from Vatican 2 started; so it is not like no one has said anything that was meant for the bishop(s) to hear and act upon. Some heard and did something. Some heard and didn’t do anything - for multiple reasons. Many didn’t hear, because the complaints were filtered out.

Rome also has had untold complaints sent to it; most of them were at best inadequatley prepared; further, contrary to many people’s expectations, Rome has a tendency to let the local area police itself. In short, Rome - the pope, and the dicasteries - do not go about micro managing parishes, or even dioceses.

Some years ago, a group got really perturbed about issues, and they video taped it, and prepared an extremely good, well organized, well thought out and well detailed letter to the proper dicastery in Rome.

They got results, because they did not come across like one more angry, poorly focused soul who couldn’t put a case together if someone else wrote it for them.

They spent a lot of time and work, and got results because the evidence was irrefutable.

If you want to make a change, unless you are either a Canon lawyer or liturgist with at least an MA, you are going to need some real help, and the process will be slow. Can you do it? It has been done before; but it is the only group in 40 years I have heard of who actually achieved the results they were looking for.

So, if you want to write your bishop, it will serve to vent your spleen, and benefit the paper company that produced the sheet of paper you wrote on. But it won’t accomplish much more.

And by the way, there are levels of “wrongness”, if you will. If the priest is gathering kids around the altar, or there are too many EMHCs, I kind of doubt that Rome is going to get too exercised about it. They probably won’t even do more than send a note to the bishop to kindly look into the matter (if that, and they probably won’t ask for a reply). If a woman is giving the homily following the reading of the Gospel, or is at the altar during the Consecration acting as a concelebrant, then, with proper documentation, Rome will most likely pay attention.

In short, there have been a lot of things to legitimately complain about for the last 40 years; some of them are still going on. The complaining about them has been going on for about as long as the things complained about have, and not a whole lot has been changed. A good portion of that is due to ineffectiveness of the complaints. So unless you are really willing to go at this correctly, with time, money, advice and effort, don’t presume much will change quickly.

A certain amount of it will simply be resolved by time, and the retirement of the priests with the screwy ideas.

 

[benedictgal]

P.S. Preaching by a layperson during the Mass while a serious liturgical abuse is neither Graviora delicta nor a Grave Matter per Redemptionis Sacramentum from what I gather.

A young Paulist priest friend of mine was having trouble with his homily. I offered to write it for him (we butted heads on doctrinal issues). He told me that the homily was supposed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, not his friends. Being young then, I didn’t quite understand it (although he had spoke some questionable material in his homilies), but, now, having gotten a little grayer and having read more and more on the norms, I can see why.

Here is what Redemptionis Sacramentum says on the subject of homilies:

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the Eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145 This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146

While this may not necessarily involve grave sanctions, the practice of the laity “preaching the homily” is forbidden and declared reprobate. The citation you cited doesn’t take away from the fact that Redemptionis Sacramentum has declared this practice wrong. It is still a very serious abuse.

 

[Bultaco]

Perhaps a little perspective helps.

There are somwhere between about 18,600 and 19,100 parishes in the US. I have no idea how many world wide…

You make some important points in your posting. The Church is not the US Army nor is it General Motors. Lasting change doesn’t come with a single phone call. While I’m certain one need not be a canonist or hold a graduate degree in theology to effect great change, nothing turns people off more than angry, half-cocked assertions and I see a great deal of that in my parish.

I do applaud you for bringing some real world perspective to this matter. Bishop Vigneron has already brought great change to that diocese, but he’s also wise and smart enough to set priorities and he knows how hard he can push his pastors without incurring rebellion or causing chaos.

 

[Bultaco]

Redemptionis Sacramentum speaks to the matter of a layperson preaching during in the Mass in paragraphs #64-66, 74 and 161. None of these paragraphs are listed below in the excerpt from RS:

1. Graviora delicta

[172.] Graviora delicta against the sanctity of the Most August Sacrifice and Sacrament of the Eucharist are to be handled in accordance with the ‘Norms concerning graviora delicta reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’,[280] namely:

a) taking away or retaining the consecrated species for sacrilegious ends, or the throwing them away;[281]

b) the attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same;[282]

c) the forbidden concelebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice with ministers of Ecclesial Communities that do not have the apostolic succession nor acknowledge the sacramental dignity of priestly Ordination;[283]

d) the consecration for sacrilegious ends of one matter without the other in the celebration of the Eucharist or even of both outside the celebration of the Eucharist.[284]

2. Grave Matters

[173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

Q.E.D.

 

[Joannm]

A young Paulist priest friend of mine was having trouble with his homily. I offered to write it for him (we butted heads on doctrinal issues). He told me that the homily was supposed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, not his friends. Being young then, I didn’t quite understand it (although he had spoke some questionable material in his homilies), but, now, having gotten a little grayer and having read more and more on the norms, I can see why.

I sometimes help my husband write his homilies and on one occasion, when he was sick and could not put one together, I basically wrote the whole thing for him.

Many priests, particularly our foreign visitors, rely on homily services. One of our priests reads it word for word on Sundays. His does his weekday homilies on his own since they are only 3 minutes long but Sundays he need the prepared text from the service. I wish he would try the Sunday one on his own because what he says during the week is quite good, but he is not ready yet. (he is only 26, from Malta, but his English is quite good)

 

[jonkknox]

Redemptionis Sacramentum speaks to the matter of a layperson preaching during in the Mass in paragraphs #64-66, 74 and 161. None of these paragraphs are listed below in the excerpt from RS:

…

Q.E.D.

Fine. Do we prefer to just use the word “reprobate”, which RS does use? Reprobate meaning disapproved with the connotation of something “morally depraved”?

 

[Bultaco]

Fine. Do we prefer to just use the word “reprobate”, which RS does use? Reprobate meaning disapproved with the connotation of something “morally depraved”?

Hold on a moment. RS does indeed use the term “reprobate” but NOT in the sense that a layperson preaching at Mass is “morally depraved!” The use of “reprobate” in this case means the Church disapproves and condemns the practice.

Posting #7 above makes a very important point. If you are going to start reading and interpreting Church documents you had better be prepared, or you are just going to turn people off.

In your case your defined what you believe to be abuses as “gravely illicit” when they are not – even if laypeople are indeed preaching at the Mass. Now you suggest they are “morally depraved” and again, they are not.

You need to do your homework before going after something like this. I personally would begin by finding out exactly what the website is describing. You might be very surprised. If laypeople are indeed preaching at Masses then you need to be very accurate with your application of Church documents.

Liturgical deformations are horrible and I can appreciate your frustration but you do need to be considerate in how you approach them.

 

[Bultaco]

I sometimes help my husband write his homilies and on one occasion, when he was sick and could not put one together, I basically wrote the whole thing for him.

Many priests, particularly our foreign visitors, rely on homily services. One of our priests reads it word for word on Sundays. His does his weekday homilies on his own since they are only 3 minutes long but Sundays he need the prepared text from the service. I wish he would try the Sunday one on his own because what he says during the week is quite good, but he is not ready yet. (he is only 26, from Malta, but his English is quite good)

I have written one homily – for use on the feast day of our patron saint. It’s been used in one form or another by 4-5 priests. There is absolutely nothing with a layperson preparing a homily – although one would hope the preacher would review, reflect and annotate it before delivering it.

 

[jpjd]

Jonkknox,

From your OP, it sounds like this is not even your own parish. It is one you were “told about” and you know of a problem only through a website.

Before you do anything, I think you need to experience the problem for yourself. Go to the Mass and observe the homily for yourself. Then see who is listed as the author on the website.

Second, if you see that the homily was given by someone other than a priest or deacon, your first move should be to speak privately to the pastor about it.

Only if the pastor does not address your concerns, then you may possibly want to approach the Bishop. One should start at the bottom and then work his way up to the Bishop. Although since this is not your parish (and is it even your diocese?), I don’t know that you are the proper person to address this.

 

[benedictgal]

Hold on a moment. RS does indeed use the term “reprobate” but NOT in the sense that a layperson preaching at Mass is “morally depraved!” The use of “reprobate” in this case means the Church disapproves and condemns the practice.

Posting #7 above makes a very important point. If you are going to start reading and interpreting Church documents you had better be prepared, or you are just going to turn people off.

Liturgical deformations are horrible and I can appreciate your frustration but you do need to be considerate in how you approach them.

However, recall that RS indicated that “lay preaching of the homily” is forbidden. It may not fall under the grave matters that you indicated; nonetheless, it is still forbidden. In short, no lay preaching of the homily is allowed. It’s very simple.

 

[ThuribleGuy45]

I am thinking in particular about a parish that I was just told about- Christ the King in Pleasant Hill, California (Oakland diocese).

On the parish’s website, there is a page for transcripts of the homilies given at Mass. Right there in plain, documented sight is a “homily” given by Mary Ann Mattos. Homilies given by laymen seems to be quite the norm at this parish. I thought that this practice has been strictly forbidden on numerous occasions! Why then, can there be such a blatant disregard for the laws of the Church? I have a mind to call the parish office tomorrow and ask them what the deal is. After that, call the office of the bishop. It can’t be innocent ignorance, can it? I hope it is.

We have family in Pleasant Hill, and I was actually at this parish on Mother’s Day last year – and a woman most definitely gave the homily. I believe the priest’s introduction to her was that since it was Mother’s Day, it was appropriate that a woman give the homily. If their website lists a woman’s name next to a specific homily, I think it’s safe to infer that she actually delivered it, as opposed to just “ghost-writing” it.

 

[jonkknox]

True, this is not even my diocese. I am not going to approach anyone- my original post was asking why nothing is done about this. I am mad as heck about this kind of stuff- especially when it is blatant. However, I do know that for one to act in a Catholic manner (and for effective results) all must be done in charity. Also, I agree that it should go from bottom to the top. Don’t get too excited, I’m not rash. Just angry.

 

[Bultaco]

True, this is not even my diocese. I am not going to approach anyone-** my original post was asking why nothing is done about this.** I am mad as heck about this kind of stuff- especially when it is blatant. However, I do know that for one to act in a Catholic manner (and for effective results) all must be done in charity. Also, I agree that it should go from bottom to the top. Don’t get too excited, I’m not rash. Just angry.

To be honest, in this case then, focus on your own business. If you truly are “mad as heck” about this, then a big part of that is your problem and not Oakland’s.

Speaking with a bit (albeit not much) of knowledge I would suggest the pastor is prideful and has been misled, and the bishop has more alarming things to worry about.

This is the diocese where the bishop slashed the number of men in formation to become deacons after he arrived because he found they weren’t even participating in the formation process – they were getting a free ride! A group then responded with cries of racial bigotry. He’s got his hands full.

 

[THurifer2]

I am pretty sure that Father Brian Joyce is the same guy who did the idiotic clown Mass.

On a side note…I can’t for the life of me remember what level of Hell Dante reserved for priests who led people astray.