Contracepting spouse and pastoral conflict

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tigre
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Who promotes something by advertising that its effects are not shared by 100% of couples? Do promoters of contraception or those who oppose NFP promote its virtues, in the guise of fairness? Of course they do not.

I haven’t see statistics of NFP’s opinions among those who embrace it, and that I’d be curious to see.
It is embraced by those for whom it is 100% effective or who happily accept and welcome an unintended pregnancy. ABC was 100% effective for me for years. NFP has been an utter failure for me now on my 2nd unintended pregnancy.

The rest of us are just out of luck I suppose. For all the supposed support given to the practice of NFP there is essentially none offered when it doesn’t work. Where is the childcare support? Where is basically any kind of practical help at all from the church that welcomes life so much. You’re on your own. I have lost my trust and absolutely will not let this happen again.
 
Who promotes something by advertising that its effects are not shared by 100% of couples? Do promoters of contraception or those who oppose NFP promote its virtues, in the guise of fairness? Of course they do not.

I haven’t see statistics of NFP’s opinions among those who embrace it, and that I’d be curious to see.
NFP has many good things going for it. If a couple needs to avoid, it’s the only way they can do so and still have sexual relations. It can also help couples conceive babies they’d otherwise not have. It can be a very, very great blessing to a marriage.

The thing is, it’s not always an unqualified blessing, and like anything except total abstinence, it is going to fail sometimes. Most of us who have a more pragmatic view about it realize that. For the record, I’m known among my Catholic friends as the person to go to about NFP questions because, yes, I read about it a lot, and if I don’t know the answer to something, I’ll tell them to ask an instructor and point them to one. I see NFP as a tool in the marital tool chest, so to speak–not an unqualifiedly perfect thing like chocolate 😃 , but also not an unqualifiedly hard or bad thing like, say, DH having to take a month-long work trip.

What gets me very, very angry about it are two things.

First, during postpartum, a woman’s fertile signs are usually all over the place, and unless you use hormonal testing, all the signs are subjective. You can’t use temperature except to determine ovulation after the fact, which is fine if you’re in normal cycles but not if you are waiting for a return of cycles. Ergo, if you use the method the CCL and the Kippleys promote, that leaves either cervical position or cervical mucus, which are, as I said, subjective observations. Regular observations simply do not work as well during this period because neither source follow a discernable pattern.

Second, the combination of the insistence that this method of NFP is foolproof and works for every family and situation (it doesn’t) with making the standards by which it is effective literally impossible for most women (see previous comment about napping with the non-scheduled baby) make it an area where a lot of women suffer. “You can’t reach this impossible standard? Well, that’s because you’re selfish/didn’t try hard enough!” “You didn’t breastfeed? You have a serious moral obligation to breastfeed! If you just tried hard enough, it would work, because it has throughout history! Only Bad Catholic Mothers work, or have breasts that don’t produce enough milk, or aren’t able to figure out how to get their five-year-old to entertain herself for three hours while caring for the toddler while Mommy naps!”

Couples deserve truth in advertising. They should be hearing something like “NFP works for a lot of people, but it also involves a fair amount of abstinence in order to be effective. It’s the only alternative to total abstinence that’s acceptable in church teaching if you need to avoid conception for a time. Here are the four primary methods out there and how they work; you figure out what works best for you at this time in your lives, and contact the appropriate instructor for help. It can be very hard, but it does reap benefits in terms of the graces you get for avoiding mortal sin.”

That’s truth in advertising.

Insisting that something that rarely works as advertised always works as advertised and then shaming those for whom it doesn’t work leaves people feeling betrayed. The fact that marketers of hormonal contraception engage in deceitful strategies is no excuse for our doing so.
 
NFP has many good things going for it. If a couple needs to avoid, it’s the only way they can do so and still have sexual relations. It can also help couples conceive babies they’d otherwise not have. It can be a very, very great blessing to a marriage.

The thing is, it’s not always an unqualified blessing, and like anything except total abstinence, it is going to fail sometimes. Most of us who have a more pragmatic view about it realize that. For the record, I’m known among my Catholic friends as the person to go to about NFP questions because, yes, I read about it a lot, and if I don’t know the answer to something, I’ll tell them to ask an instructor and point them to one. I see NFP as a tool in the marital tool chest, so to speak–not an unqualifiedly perfect thing like chocolate 😃 , but also not an unqualifiedly hard or bad thing like, say, DH having to take a month-long work trip.

What gets me very, very angry about it are two things.

First, during postpartum, a woman’s fertile signs are usually all over the place, and unless you use hormonal testing, all the signs are subjective. You can’t use temperature except to determine ovulation after the fact, which is fine if you’re in normal cycles but not if you are waiting for a return of cycles. Ergo, if you use the method the CCL and the Kippleys promote, that leaves either cervical position or cervical mucus, which are, as I said, subjective observations. Regular observations simply do not work as well during this period because neither source follow a discernable pattern.

Second, the combination of the insistence that this method of NFP is foolproof and works for every family and situation (it doesn’t) with making the standards by which it is effective literally impossible for most women (see previous comment about napping with the non-scheduled baby) make it an area where a lot of women suffer. “You can’t reach this impossible standard? Well, that’s because you’re selfish/didn’t try hard enough!” “You didn’t breastfeed? You have a serious moral obligation to breastfeed! If you just tried hard enough, it would work, because it has throughout history! Only Bad Catholic Mothers work, or have breasts that don’t produce enough milk, or aren’t able to figure out how to get their five-year-old to entertain herself for three hours while caring for the toddler while Mommy naps!”

Couples deserve truth in advertising. They should be hearing something like “NFP works for a lot of people, but it also involves a fair amount of abstinence in order to be effective. It’s the only alternative to total abstinence that’s acceptable in church teaching if you need to avoid conception for a time. Here are the four primary methods out there and how they work; you figure out what works best for you at this time in your lives, and contact the appropriate instructor for help. It can be very hard, but it does reap benefits in terms of the graces you get for avoiding mortal sin.”

That’s truth in advertising.

Insisting that something that rarely works as advertised always works as advertised and then shaming those for whom it doesn’t work leaves people feeling betrayed. The fact that marketers of hormonal contraception engage in deceitful strategies is no excuse for our doing so.
👍
 
I do not know how I’d react, but I tend to agree with this. We’ve seen the discussions about men refusing to indulge in pornography, and many support a halt to relations if the man insist on continuing. And while I see that (and my heart breaks for the men and women this affects), it can at least be said that the porn is often an addiction. If women are within their right to withold true intimacy from a husband who refuses to abandon a willfully immoral practice, why would this situation be any different?
We’re talking about a newly postpartum woman.

Trust me, if she’s an average woman, she’s not actually dying to have marital relations.

In fact, she probably believes that sex is primarily something she needs to do for her husband right now. The OP telling her that he’s fine, thanks, abstinence is not going to kill him, don’t worry, could be very, very helpful in this situation.
 
We’re talking about a newly postpartum woman.

Trust me, if she’s an average woman, she’s not actually dying to have marital relations.

In fact, she probably believes that sex is primarily something she needs to do for her husband right now. The OP telling her that he’s fine, thanks, abstinence is not going to kill him, don’t worry, could be very, very helpful in this situation.
I agree, and would support my wife in any way she needed support, save of course for the contraception. All bets are off in a PP woman, and I am there for any of them in a loving way.

I was reacting to those aghast at Swolf’s revulsion at the notion of his wife using contraception. He mentioned (for him) the idea getting rid of the contraception, and not partaking of sexual relations with his wife while they were involved. I just found the reactions to his response dissonant with recent discussions on pornography, as I can understand a woman wanting to abstain if a man was abusing pornography, and would support her if she chose to get rid of his stash of garbage.I think that and Swolf’s response were fair and appropriate, though not the only response one could have. His hurt at his wife using contraception may be akin to a man or woman’s hurt at discovering pornography abuse, and the latter may even involve an addiction.

I abhor both, mind you, and the thought of hurting my wife in any way wounds me deeply.
 
Kelfa and Ubi, I am so sorry for all you ladies have been through. Truly sorry.

If it helps at all, I had my kids back when I was waffling between Pagan, Protestant, and Atheist. No one told me I was a failure or ignorant if I couldn’t breast feed or had to have a c-section or if I put Baby to sleep somewhere other than my bed.

My oldest could only breast feed for a few months. After that, I couldn’t provide enough for her and had to move to the bottle. My middle kid nursed even less because she had some health problems that didn’t resolve until she was well over 6 months old. My last flipped himself last minute and not only had to be a c-section, but he wouldn’t latch on at all and had to be bottle fed from day 2 on.

For absolutely no reason, I still felt I was some sort of failure because everything wasn’t like it’s “supposed” to be. So, it’s not just good catholic women who go through this.
 
Post-partum depression is real and can last sometimes up to two years after the birth of the baby. Don’t “push” your wife on the issue just now; she just had a baby six weeks ago. There is a lot for both of you to get adjusted to with a new one in the house. Focus on being loving, nurturing parents for the meantime. Intercourse can wait. After things get a bit “settled” in the home (you will be able to sense this with your wife), then maybe talk about the contraception issue. But not now; focus on supporting your wife and being a good Dad.
 
I was reacting to those aghast at Swolf’s revulsion at the notion of his wife using contraception. He mentioned (for him) the idea getting rid of the contraception, and not partaking of sexual relations with his wife while they were involved. I just found the reactions to his response dissonant with recent discussions on pornography, as I can understand a woman wanting to abstain if a man was abusing pornography, and would support her if she chose to get rid of his stash of garbage.I think that and Swolf’s response were fair and appropriate, though not the only response one could have. His hurt at his wife using contraception may be akin to a man or woman’s hurt at discovering pornography abuse, and the latter may even involve an addiction.
How about if it were the husband who had a stash of condoms or an appointment for a vasectomy, and the wife kept repeatedly tossing out his condoms and cancelling his vasectomy appointment? Wouldn’t that be a ridiculous thing to do if one wanted to live peacefully with a husband?

We can’t effectively declare war on our spouse and hope to have an intact, peaceful home.

There is pastoral advice (the vademecum that the OP referenced) that allows for the innocent spouse (the OP) to continue to have marital relations with a contracepting spouse (the OP’s wife) if certain conditions are met. SWolf’s advice is not in the conciliatory spirit of the vademecum and I think that’s what people are reacting so negatively to.

The OP’s wife is presumably choosing contraception right now because she’s overwhelmed and terrified of another pregnancy. (And with reason–as previously mentioned in this thread, some women are fertile enough to have a yearly pregnancy.) The only thing that throwing out her pills accomplishes is to add distrust of her husband to her current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed–that is not an improvement.

There are things that the OP can do to help his wife feel competent and secure.
 
How about if it were the husband who had a stash of condoms or an appointment for a vasectomy, and the wife kept repeatedly tossing out his condoms and cancelling his vasectomy appointment? Wouldn’t that be a ridiculous thing to do if one wanted to live peacefully with a husband?

We can’t effectively declare war on our spouse and hope to have an intact, peaceful home.

There is pastoral advice (the vademecum that the OP referenced) that allows for the innocent spouse (the OP) to continue to have marital relations with a contracepting spouse (the OP’s wife) if certain conditions are met. SWolf’s advice is not in the conciliatory spirit of the vademecum and I think that’s what people are reacting so negatively to.

The OP’s wife is presumably choosing contraception right now because she’s overwhelmed and terrified of another pregnancy. (And with reason–as previously mentioned in this thread, some women are fertile enough to have a yearly pregnancy.) The only thing that throwing out her pills accomplishes is to add distrust of her husband to her current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed–that is not an improvement.

There are things that the OP can do to help his wife feel competent and secure.
Exactly.
We can’t treat our spouses as errant children that must be “dealt with”.
And it never works anyway.
It sets up a me vs. you, and you’re immoral btw, sort of horrible dynamic.
Not exactly the Gospel message. 😦
Marriage is all about supporting each other during the tough times. “In sickness and in health” remember? A woman who is suffering post-partum is genuinely ill. May God have mercy on her and her loving husband, if she’s lucky enough to have one. Hitting her over the head with admonishments ain’t gonna work. Neither will actively working against one another. A lot of divorces happen because someone thinks they are their wife’s daddy.

OP, I will be praying for you as a couple, and I wish you all the best. May the peace of Christ descend upon your dear family during this trying times.
 
How about if it were the husband who had a stash of condoms or an appointment for a vasectomy, and the wife kept repeatedly tossing out his condoms and cancelling his vasectomy appointment? Wouldn’t that be a ridiculous thing to do if one wanted to live peacefully with a husband?
No. It’s a hard boundary she has every right to enforce.
We can’t effectively declare war on our spouse and hope to have an intact, peaceful home.
Like Max stated, if pornography addiction is a valid reason to remove marital relations, so is birth control. Both are blatant breaches of their marital vows.
A married person is under no obligation to cooperate in a spouse’s sin.

Hardball is recommended all the time for a spouse who is completely neglecting their duties.
There is pastoral advice (the vademecum that the OP referenced) that allows for the innocent spouse (the OP) to continue to have marital relations with a contracepting spouse (the OP’s wife) if certain conditions are met. SWolf’s advice is not in the conciliatory spirit of the vademecum and I think that’s what people are reacting so negatively to.
It also allows the spouse to abstain.
The OP’s wife is presumably choosing contraception right now because she’s overwhelmed and terrified of another pregnancy. (And with reason–as previously mentioned in this thread, some women are fertile enough to have a yearly pregnancy.) The only thing that throwing out her pills accomplishes is to add distrust of her husband to her current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed–that is not an improvement.
The husband is soliciting hookers because he is overwhelmed with work and a baby. Demanding to know where he is would add distrust of his wife to his current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed.

The husband is watching pornography because he is overwhelmed with work and a baby. Taking away his stash is to add distrust of his wife to his current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed.

Somehow I don’t think people here would think this is a valid reason to commit mortal sin, regardless of internal feelings, and would recommend abstaining from relations.
There are things that the OP can do to help his wife feel competent and secure.
This sounds nice, but the reality is when a spouse fails to set boundaries, they get walked all over and the spouse loses respect for them. The sin continues and even worse transgressions happen in the future.

Does the wife have any moral agency or not?
Does the wife have an obligation to her husband or not?
 
Exactly.
We can’t treat our spouses as errant children that must be “dealt with”.
And it never works anyway.
It sets up a me vs. you, and you’re immoral btw, sort of horrible dynamic.
Not exactly the Gospel message. 😦
Marriage is all about supporting each other during the tough times. “In sickness and in health” remember? A woman who is suffering post-partum is genuinely ill. May God have mercy on her and her loving husband, if she’s lucky enough to have one. Hitting her over the head with admonishments ain’t gonna work. Neither will actively working against one another. A lot of divorces happen because someone thinks they are their wife’s daddy.

OP, I will be praying for you as a couple, and I wish you all the best. May the peace of Christ descend upon your dear family during this trying times.
Right.

And that part about the postpartum woman being genuinely ill is very important to remember. We tend to forget this in our current craze for 7-months-pregnant ladies running marathons, but pregnant and postpartum women usually aren’t themselves and won’t be themselves for some time. In fact, it’s not uncommon for it to take a year or two postpartum to really feel recovered, both psychologically and physically. A lot of postpartum women are (for lack of a nicer but equally communicative word) CRAZY. They need a lot of love, support and gentle handling.
 
No. It’s a hard boundary she has every right to enforce.

Like Max stated, if pornography addiction is a valid reason to remove marital relations, so is birth control. Both are blatant breaches of their marital vows.
A married person is under no obligation to cooperate in a spouse’s sin.

Hardball is recommended all the time for a spouse who is completely neglecting their duties.

It also allows the spouse to abstain.

The husband is soliciting hookers because he is overwhelmed with work and a baby. Demanding to know where he is would add distrust of his wife to his current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed.

The husband is watching pornography because he is overwhelmed with work and a baby. Taking away his stash is to add distrust of his wife to his current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed.

Somehow I don’t think people here would think this is a valid reason to commit mortal sin, regardless of internal feelings, and would recommend abstaining from relations.

**This sounds nice, but the reality is when a spouse fails to set boundaries, they get walked all over and the spouse loses respect for them. The sin continues and even worse transgressions happen in the future. **

***Generalize much? Sounds like you have a personal axe to grind. :rolleyes: This is not helpful to the OP. ***

Does the wife have any moral agency or not?
Does the wife have an obligation to her husband or not?
Can one peer into the souls of others? :confused:
 
Right.

And that part about the postpartum woman being genuinely ill is very important to remember. We tend to forget this in our current craze for 7-months-pregnant ladies running marathons, but pregnant and postpartum women usually aren’t themselves and won’t be themselves for some time. In fact, it’s not uncommon for it to take a year or two postpartum to really feel recovered, both psychologically and physically. A lot of postpartum women are (for lack of a nicer but equally communicative word) CRAZY. They need a lot of love, support and gentle handling.
I would add that you don’t even need to have PPD to be unwell postpartum. Besides the physical healing that is happening, the “baby blues” are a real thing and don’t even need to be as severe as actual depression to be life altering.

After my first was born, I remember sitting on the couch with him watching NCIS. A character died because, well, it’s a crime show and there would otherwise be no story. I was bawling. Hysterical. Inconsolable. “But she was so young! Jenny never even got to have a baby! Why did they do that to her? How awful. And she doesn’t have any family. Her life. Her whole life. She leaves no legacy. Gibbs. His heart will be broken. Oh God why why why!”

Yea it was weird and irrational. No real humans were harmed in the filming of that episode. Didn’t matter. I cried at commercials. Cried hard as in had to lay down and compose myself. I cried when I was happy. I cried when I was sad. I cried when the restaurant put mole sauce on my enchiladas instead of red sauce when we got take-out. It seems silly but it was these little emotional turmoils that practically rendered me incapable of functioning and definitely incapable of thinking clearly. My OB recommended I give it a few weeks since I was emotional but not overtly depressed. In three weeks it lifted and I only cried at Johnsons Baby soap commercials.
 
Generalize much?
This sounds nice, but from what I have seen 95 percent of the time when a spouse fails to set boundaries, they get walked all over and the spouse loses respect for them. The sin continues and even worse transgressions happen in the future.

Better?
Sounds like you have a personal axe to grind. This is not helpful to the OP.
Nope, but even if I did, that in itself does not invalidate what I wrote.
Can one peer into the souls of others? :confused:
Through their actions, to a certain extent, yes.

Luke 6:43
 
No. It’s a hard boundary she has every right to enforce.

Like Max stated, if pornography addiction is a valid reason to remove marital relations, so is birth control. Both are blatant breaches of their marital vows.
A married person is under no obligation to cooperate in a spouse’s sin.

Hardball is recommended all the time for a spouse who is completely neglecting their duties.

It also allows the spouse to abstain.

The husband is soliciting hookers because he is overwhelmed with work and a baby. Demanding to know where he is would add distrust of his wife to his current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed.

The husband is watching pornography because he is overwhelmed with work and a baby. Taking away his stash is to add distrust of his wife to his current feelings of being fearful and overwhelmed.

Somehow I don’t think people here would think this is a valid reason to commit mortal sin, regardless of internal feelings, and would recommend abstaining from relations.

This sounds nice, but the reality is when a spouse fails to set boundaries, they get walked all over and the spouse loses respect for them. The sin continues and even worse transgressions happen in the future.

Does the wife have any moral agency or not?
Does the wife have an obligation to her husband or not?
Some thoughts:
  1. I can’t think of a worse idea than “hardball” with a pregnant or postpartum wife. Rusty Yates played hardball with his wife. That didn’t end well.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

It’s not uncommon for men to underestimate how psychologically unwell new mothers are and how dangerous the postpartum period can be.

New mothers need lots of love, support, and vigilance to make sure they’re not wigging out. At least 20% of mothers develop postpartum depression.

webmd.com/depression/features/postpartum-depression-more-common-than-you-know
  1. The OP is free to abstain. He’s also free to not abstain. He should talk to his spiritual director as to which is the better option at any particular time.
I think abstaining could be a very good idea as long as his wife is terrified of a repeat pregnancy, but the OP shouldn’t turn it into some sort of punitive sex strike. (I don’t think that was his plan, but that was the flavor of your advice.) There’s the potential here for him to make abstinence a demonstration of his love and devotion to his family (he loves her enough that he can be patient and self-denying), so framing abstinence to her as a sex strike is an own goal, because it makes him look selfish and petty and unloving.
  1. You ask, “Does the wife have any moral agency or not? Does the wife have an obligation to her husband or not?”
It may be that the wife has very limited moral agency right now.

As to whether or not the wife has an obligation to her husband–sure, she has lots of obligations. But this isn’t a great time for the OP to be demanding his “rights.” This is a good time to roll up the sleeves, take care of the wife, take care of the baby, and make sure that the wife is getting appropriate medical care for any possible psychological issues. If the OP is going to be very firm about anything, it should be in making sure his wife is psychologically and physically well and that she doesn’t have any weird, obsessive ideas about appropriate baby care.
  1. Also, come to think of it, sabotaging contraception is usually on lists of abusive behavior. So, in normal American society, if he throws out his wife’s birth control pills, her friends, doctor, and other authorities will immediately assume that he is abusive and controlling if he follows that advice.
  2. It’s a good idea to avoid winding up in tit-for-tat battles with either spouses or children. Sure, we can do stuff, but they can do stuff, too. He throws out her pills. She buys new pills and throws out his favorite stuffed trophy buck and sells his guns. What’s his next move?
Better not to play at all.
 
This sounds nice, but from what I have seen 95 percent of the time when a spouse fails to set boundaries, they get walked all over and the spouse loses respect for them. The sin continues and even worse transgressions happen in the future.

Better?

Nope, but even if I did, that in itself does not invalidate what I wrote.

Through their actions, to a certain extent, yes.

Luke 6:43
You might want to run all of that by your confessor.
Got any stats to back it up? Anything besides a random Scripture passage taken out of context?
Maybe read Luke 6:42
 
What grevious act against his marital vows has the OP committed that would be a plank in his eye?
I suspect that pianistclare Clare was talking to you, not the OP.

Also, I have to agree with her that Luke 6:43 is pretty random in this context.

Why not Matthew 5 instead?

"38 "You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
 
I do not know how I’d react, but I tend to agree with this. We’ve seen the discussions about men refusing to indulge in pornography, and many support a halt to relations if the man insist on continuing. And while I see that (and my heart breaks for the men and women this affects), it can at least be said that the porn is often an addiction. If women are within their right to withold true intimacy from a husband who refuses to abandon a willfully immoral practice, why would this situation be any different?
While I don’t really expect consistency in an online forum I will point out that the consensus was that it is ok to deny relations with even a repentant pornography using spouse. I don’t believe you should deny your spouse in either case but I’m curious as to why the difference.

I know would just feel too used to be intimate with a wife who only wanted to use my body to satiate her lustful, inordinate desires. If she can’t handle all of me (including my fertility) then she ain’t getting none.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top