Contraception debate for irregular circumstances

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Why should it remain private? It’s a public teaching of the Church. To say it should remain private implies very strongly that there can be a contradiction that should remain secret.

I may have been born at night, but it wasn’t last night.

Creepy, creepy.
Because my medical problems are mine. And there is no need to share them with everyone. 🤷

How would knowing my problems help you in any way? Why would you even want to know about them?

Yes, it is a public teaching. But it is also a private conversation.

And talking about it here is not the same as making it public. You don’t know me, my name nor where I live.
 
Right. And how do you know what god didn’t also design it to also be a form of pleasure? Many animals in nature often solely use it for pleasure, such as dolphins, now the church claims they lack a conscioussness and were created by god, yes? So logically it is natural to practice sexual intercourse without intent to conceive and therefore contraception isn’t some sort of mortal sin, but a human solution to a natural phenomenon?
For your information: I am a unique animal created it the image and likeness of God. No other animal in field or forest is thusly made. I am unique and will not hold up the behavior of a dolphin as my standard.
Your conclusion does not follow. In is not natural to act like the other animals.
 
Because my medical problems are mine. And there is no need to share them with everyone. 🤷

How would knowing my problems help you in any way? Why would you even want to know about them?

Yes, it is a public teaching. But it is also a private conversation.

And talking about it here is not the same as making it public. You don’t know me, my name nor where I live.
I don’t think it is so much about keeping it private for the individuals benefit as it is the risk of the general public jumping on that scenario and saying, “The CC has approved contraception!”

They are not saying that the Church will turn around and say, “Mary has _____ condition, and in this case it is okay or not okay to use contraception” If you have a condition that the CC would warrant the use of contraception, then others suffering from the same condition could benefit from knowing about it. Your privacy has not been violated at all. But, the danger of “approving” certain uses and publicizing it is a very dangerous ground to tread.

But that said, I still am of the belief that contraception is an intrinsic evil and violates and destroys the marital union. I originally started this post because today I found out that someone I know, a Catholic who was once against contraception, has started using condoms and is trying to justify it for similar reasons that I stated in my OP. This is causing me a lot of interior distress knowing this.

However, I am entirely sympathetic to the cause. If I was married and desired to be intimate with my husband, but getting pregnant would be of great consequence to both myself and child, it would be very hard to abstain… especially when sleeping in the same bed every night, and being intimate in other ways.

I do believe that marriage is more than sex, and there are ways to grow in intimacy without sex, and that this trial could be a call to grow in holiness for the couple. At the same time, we are human, and it is normal to long for one’s spouse in this very intimate way.

I just don’t know how to counter their arguments without sounding like I am a heartless and uncompassionate person. It is easy for me to say, “well, just abstain for however long you need to, give it to God, and this is an opportunity to grow closer to Him”, when I am not living their situation.
 
Well, in another thread JRKH posted:
Re: Is this of grave matter?
In all fairness I must disagree with this. One does not have to trust the response. Priests are human and liable to error - or there can be misunderstanding, confusion between what is asked and what is heard etc.
I don’t say that you discount the response, but if a person gets an answer and it just doesn’t satisfy then one should probe further… That is what the OP needs to do with this priest.
Peace
James

The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: “The Fulfillment of All Desire”
Oh my God , I will continue
to perform, all my actions
for the love of Thee
Amen.
…and that’s good enough for me. Maybe two people are sharing the JRKH account, I dunno, but I like this new one better.
 
The teaching on contraception is the big reason I’m not a full-fledged Catholic. I’ve been taking baby steps in that direction but I just can’t reconcile myself with it. I’ll probably always be an Anglican for this reason. It’s not because I just don’t want to live without contraception. It’s not that I haven’t heard and understood the arguments against it. It’s because I just can’t see how banning contraception is morally sound. Both from a neutral viewpoint (I do not agree that it could be wrong, and find the reasoning behind finding it so weak) and from a negative viewpoint (that is it better to discourage people from either using contraceptives to limit births to an affordable level or to prevent passing on a disease or maternal death, or to discourage them from having sex within a perfectly valid marriage altogether).

The purpose of the mouth is to take in food (and speak, but that’s irrelevant). Well, sometimes I chew gum. It tastes good, so it gives me the good sensation I get from eating food, but then I spit the gum out, thus negating whatever nutritional value it may have had. Aha! I cheated! I drank the milk without buying the cow! Am I violating the sanctity of my mouth, and of the very purpose of the mouth, by not using its chewing capacities solely for the complete consumption of food? As St. Paul would say, Of course not!
 
It’s because I just can’t see how banning contraception is morally sound. Both from a neutral viewpoint (I do not agree that it could be wrong) and from a negative viewpoint (that is it better to discourage people from either using contraceptives to limit births to an affordable level or to prevent passing on a disease or maternal death, or to discourage them from having sex within a perfectly valid marriage altogether).
As long as you create your own moral framework from nothing, you can mold it so that whatever you prefer seems reasonable. The Church says those ends have to be accomplished with a moral means, you don’t say that. If I have to choose between the Church and what’s in your head, guess which I’d go with? And which I’d counsel you to go with?
 
It’s not that I haven’t thought about it. I’ve put a lot of thought into it, actually. But it still comes off like the bubble gum analogy above. I cannot, after years of study and reflection and even just flat-out attempting to force myself to think a different way, concede that contraception is wrong in any way.

The Anglican tradition posits its sources as scripture, tradition, and reason. With the Catholic Church, we share the first two, but with the last we diverge on this issue. We hold that if it is in Scripture, it is to be held as true. (The modern ECUSA might disagree on this.) However, if it is not in scripture, we must use reason to determine what the proper course of action is. Reason does not go along with the concept that because a higher church authority has said it or declared it to be so, it automatically becomes truth. Reason holds that a consensus can be reached by the faith community through careful consideration of the issue and its implications, and using exegesis and yes, reason to come to a conclusion that abides by all three principles. As far as reasoning is concerned:
  1. There is no condemnation in the Bible of contraception. (The story of Onan is often given as proof, but even the NAB in its notes admits that the issue is not that Onan spilled his seed, but rather that he refused to fulfill Hebrew law by begetting sons for his dead brother’s sake.) This is the biggest reason.
  2. The use of contraception has aided countless families and individuals across the world, just as the development of vaccines and other medical miracles. It is a “good thing” on the same level as those achievements.
  3. Banning contraception not only has no Biblical basis, but brings about several negative consequences - not simply the outright refusal of the laity to conform and thus bring them into conflict with the church for the reasons listed above, but also the spread of venereal disease, unwanted children (which in less developed countries are often sold, worked to death, or simply abandoned), potential dangers of childbearing on certain women due to medical conditions, and conflict and struggle in the marital home due to refusal of sex. (The Anglican point of view does not hold that such struggle is a positive “cross to bear”.)
That’s the Anglican position. It is not held out of an express desire to be allowed total freedom to act with irresponsibility. I am familiar with the Catholic position, but cannot accept its validity any more than I can accept a Muslim’s conviction that a dish out of which a dog has eaten must be washed seven times, four of them with sand and water, in order for it to be used by humans.
 
That’s the Anglican position after 1933. Helpful little fact, there.

I’m sticking with Christianity Pentecost-1933 myself, since to go along with your program requires the Holy Spirit to have been silent on the matter until the 20th century. And really, calling the effects of artificial contraception a great good requires willful ignorance of their effects on society, so you go right on telling yourself how complete your analysis is, I’m going to laugh at how inadequate it is.
 
For your information: I am a unique animal created it the image and likeness of God. No other animal in field or forest is thusly made. I am unique and will not hold up the behavior of a dolphin as my standard.
Your conclusion does not follow. In is not natural to act like the other animals.
No you’re not unique. You evolved from these animals. You are an animal. You carry the same instincts and everything you do can be rooted back to this. And what is wrong with the way dolphins behave? They’ve saved human lives, helped other animals in the sea, but to my knowledge they’ve never started a war! My conclusion follows much better than yours.
 
As long as you create your own moral framework from nothing, you can mold it so that whatever you prefer seems reasonable. The Church says those ends have to be accomplished with a moral means, you don’t say that. If I have to choose between the Church and what’s in your head, guess which I’d go with? And which I’d counsel you to go with?
What?! But thats exactly what the catholic church have done. Its modelled its on morale framework to suit its desires. In fact your whole religion is based on a framework of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Bible all of which you believe in because someone told you to. These things have no reasonable or logical basis, but you believe them anyway, and why? Because of this lovely word called “faith” you like to spout at anyone who raises questions, which seems to me to be a short way of saying “I belive this because someone told me to, not because I had this idea, put it through logical and reasoned analysis and found it fine, but because SOMEONE TOLD ME TO.” Rant over.
 
Well, in another thread JRKH posted:

…and that’s good enough for me. Maybe two people are sharing the JRKH account, I dunno, but I like this new one better.
There is only one me…😃

Peace
James
 
The Church says those ends have to be accomplished with a moral means, you don’t say that. If I have to choose between the Church and what’s in your head, guess which I’d go with? And which I’d counsel you to go with?
All good for you. But the vast majority of Catholic women of child bearing age are using, or have used, contraception.

You are in the minority on this. Which doesn’t make you wrong. But that fact needs to be tabled.
 
All good for you. But the vast majority of Catholic women of child bearing age are using, or have used, contraception.

You are in the minority on this. Which doesn’t make you wrong. But that fact needs to be tabled.
The fact is that we all sin.

The fact that we all sin will have no bearing on Church teaching - just as the fact that the vast majority of drivers regularly ignore speed limits has no bearing on the traffic laws…🤷

Peace
James
 
All good for you. But the vast majority of Catholic women of child bearing age are using, or have used, contraception.
You are in the minority on this. Which doesn’t make you wrong. But that fact needs to be tabled.
IF it is an Anglican principle that morality is a matter of majority, that also needs to be tabled.
 
The fact that we all sin will have no bearing on Church teaching - just as the fact that the vast majority of drivers regularly ignore speed limits has no bearing on the traffic laws
But if the Minister of Transport said that speed limits were to 20mph through all towns and all of his colleagues simply ignored him and travelled at whatever speed they liked, would you be more or less inclined to follow the rules?
IF it is an Anglican principle that morality is a matter of majority, that also needs to be tabled.
Well, you’d have to ask an Anglican about that. But as I said earlier…
You are in the minority on this. Which doesn’t make you wrong.
The corollary to that is obviously that being in the majority doesn’t necessarily make you right.
 
But if the Minister of Transport said that speed limits were to 20mph through all towns and all of his colleagues simply ignored him and travelled at whatever speed they liked, would you be more or less inclined to follow the rules?
What it makes me “inclined to do” is not relevant to what the Law is…

Yes I may be less inclined to follow the rules, but when I am pulled over and ticketed will the judge consider “the vast majority of drivers ignore the speed limit” as a valid excuse?
The obvious answer is that he will not and I will be ordered to pay the appropriate penalty.

Same with Church teaching. If the Church says that artificial contraception is wrong (gravely sinful) then the “fact” that the majority do it anyway is not going to help them when they stand before their judge…The Judge (Christ) may find other mitigating circumstances…that I cannot say… but the “everybody else was doing it” argument won’t work…

Peace
James
 
Yes I may be less inclined to follow the rules, but when I am pulled over and ticketed will the judge consider “the vast majority of drivers ignore the speed limit” as a valid excuse?
The obvious answer is that he will not and I will be ordered to pay the appropriate penalty.

Same with Church teaching. If the Church says that artificial contraception is wrong (gravely sinful) then the “fact” that the majority do it anyway is not going to help them when they stand before their judge…The Judge (Christ) may find other mitigating circumstances…that I cannot say… but the “everybody else was doing it” argument won’t work…

I’m making a couple of points here with the analogy.

The first is that if almost everyone in the Minister’s department (Catholics) are ignoring the rules, then those people not in the department (the rest of us) are going to think that it’s a bit hypocritical for the Minister (that would be the Pope, but I think you’d have worked that out anyway), to insist that we must all obey the rules anyway.

The second is that if almost everyone ignores a law because they don’t think it’s valid, then they start looking at other things that they have been told they cannot do and start to question them as well. The whole system starts to look a little shaky.
 
I’m making a couple of points here with the analogy.

The first is that if almost everyone in the Minister’s department (Catholics) are ignoring the rules, then those people not in the department (the rest of us) are going to think that it’s a bit hypocritical for the Minister (that would be the Pope, but I think you’d have worked that out anyway), to insist that we must all obey the rules anyway.

The second is that if almost everyone ignores a law because they don’t think it’s valid, then they start looking at other things that they have been told they cannot do and start to question them as well. The whole system starts to look a little shaky.
That may be your point of view, but the whole system has stood the test for 2,000 years. Contraception is indeed a problem for Catholics as well as non-Catholics in general. The point is, Catholics should not ignore the rules. Non-Catholics should heed the advice of the Church as well.

I’m reminded of a 1960s era conversation between a mom and her son, “So, just because everybody else is jumping off a cliff, you think I’m gonna tell you to do the same thing?” [Add stern tone of voice.]

The Church has gone through ups and downs. The point is: it never forces. It just consistently reminds the flock of the Truth, even if most of the flock have strayed regarding sexual matters. For many people over the centuries, they have tried it their way and, thank God, said to themselves: “You know. I was wrong. The Church was right.”

Our Blessed Mother told us to pray for the conversion of Russia. It took a long time. Recently, I saw a photo of Vladimir Putin and his wife (with head covering) in Church.

Peace,
Ed
 
It’s not that I haven’t thought about it. I’ve put a lot of thought into it, actually. But it still comes off like the bubble gum analogy above. I cannot, after years of study and reflection and even just flat-out attempting to force myself to think a different way, concede that contraception is wrong in any way.

The Anglican tradition posits its sources as scripture, tradition, and reason. With the Catholic Church, we share the first two, but with the last we diverge on this issue. We hold that if it is in Scripture, it is to be held as true. (The modern ECUSA might disagree on this.) However, if it is not in scripture, we must use reason to determine what the proper course of action is. Reason does not go along with the concept that because a higher church authority has said it or declared it to be so, it automatically becomes truth. Reason holds that a consensus can be reached by the faith community through careful consideration of the issue and its implications, and using exegesis and yes, reason to come to a conclusion that abides by all three principles. As far as reasoning is concerned:
  1. There is no condemnation in the Bible of contraception. (The story of Onan is often given as proof, but even the NAB in its notes admits that the issue is not that Onan spilled his seed, but rather that he refused to fulfill Hebrew law by begetting sons for his dead brother’s sake.) This is the biggest reason.
  2. The use of contraception has aided countless families and individuals across the world, just as the development of vaccines and other medical miracles. It is a “good thing” on the same level as those achievements.
  3. Banning contraception not only has no Biblical basis, but brings about several negative consequences - not simply the outright refusal of the laity to conform and thus bring them into conflict with the church for the reasons listed above, but also the spread of venereal disease, unwanted children (which in less developed countries are often sold, worked to death, or simply abandoned), potential dangers of childbearing on certain women due to medical conditions, and conflict and struggle in the marital home due to refusal of sex. (The Anglican point of view does not hold that such struggle is a positive “cross to bear”.)
That’s the Anglican position. It is not held out of an express desire to be allowed total freedom to act with irresponsibility. I am familiar with the Catholic position, but cannot accept its validity any more than I can accept a Muslim’s conviction that a dish out of which a dog has eaten must be washed seven times, four of them with sand and water, in order for it to be used by humans.
How has the CC failed to use reason? Their reasoning is solid… and they back it up with scripture and our knowledge of humanity and the human person.

“God Himself is an eternal exchange of love, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and He has destined us to share in that exchange.” - Catechism of the Catholic Church.

When fully open to this love, it brings forth life. Mary was so open to God’s love that the Word became Flesh. Religious bring forth life in a different way… the bring us to God’s love through their vocations, and thus, bring us to Life in Christ.
The marital union, when open to life, can bring forth another human. To sterilize this act by contraception, we are saying, “No, we don’t want to share in this exchange of love.” The man holds a part of himself back… he does not hand over his body to his wife. In return, the wife, by contracepting, is not willing to receive, fully, her husband. The ability to take part in the Divine Mystery has been broken through this contraceptive act.

If you are trying to say that the Church isn’t being reasonable in this, please, tell me why you think that. External circumstances, however difficult they may seem, do not justify contraception. …

Mary could have been stoned to death for being pregnant and appearing to be adulterous. She knew this very well, but that did not deter her from saying, “Yes.” She was 15 and dirt poor. She did not let her financial circumstances deter her either.

In circumstances of AIDS and other medical consequences, right now, I am not clear cut on the understanding, which is part of the reason I began this post, because I would like to learn more. I am sympathetic to both sides, and can understand the “reasoning” from both sides, but no matter how painful the Truth may be, we must follow the Truth. If the CC, at the moment, is saying it is morally wrong, then I have to follow their teaching, even if my understanding isn’t complete. Why?

There is something to be said about obedience, especially in the lack of understanding. That is what “Faith” is. We don’t understand, but we believe and we trust, and through this faith, we grow in love.

Small kids don’t understand why they have to eat their vegetables and not just have candy and ice cream at every mean. A parent cannot explain this to a two year old, because it is beyond the capacity for a two year old to understand nutrition and health.
The child first learns to obey. Understanding comes later.
But there is a growing number of “cafeteria Catholics” who say, “I will only obey when I understand or agree.” Who else do we know that said this, but Satan? Satan can imitate a lot of things… he can even imitate humility. But the one thing he cannot do is obey.

That said, children are allowed to disobey their parents if the parent is asking them to do something that is sinful and harmful. But, where is the sin in teaching that a couple must abstain from contraception in these circumstances? Where is the harm in saying a couple must exercise self-control and abstain entirely if indeed, conceiving a child would prove dangerous for the mother? In fact, the intention seems quite clear. To tell the couple they must abstain from a potentially fatal union for both their soul and physical body is wanting the good for that couple. Will it be hard? Of course. Is it fair? No. But no suffering is “fair.”
 
I’m making a couple of points here with the analogy.
OK…
The first is that if almost everyone in the Minister’s department (Catholics) are ignoring the rules, then those people not in the department (the rest of us) are going to think that it’s a bit hypocritical for the Minister (that would be the Pope, but I think you’d have worked that out anyway), to insist that we must all obey the rules anyway.
I’m not sure I understand you…Are you suggesting that the Pope is trying to tell non-Catholics to obey Catholic rules??
If that is what is being suggested here, I believe that is not true.
The second is that if almost everyone ignores a law because they don’t think it’s valid, then they start looking at other things that they have been told they cannot do and start to question them as well. The whole system starts to look a little shaky.
Yes - it could result in a smaller church as people fall away. But I would disagree that it looks “shaky”…
In fact, I would say it only looks shaky to those who choose to stand on shaky ground. 😉
 
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