Contraception Debate

[BruceK]

**Here’s the latest exchange I’ve been having with this supporter of contraception and his moral justification of such. My words are in bold: **
Me: ]how is it possibly moral to thwart the transmission of life by artificial gadgets, surgical alteration, or the pill? <<

My Protagonist: <It is moral to artificially thwart the transmission of life because doing so violates no moral principle. ABC like NFP cooperates with God’s will as revealed through His creation of human sexuality.>

**What is flawed about his argument and what would be the best rebuttal of such? **

 

[mark_a]

ABC like NFP cooperates with God’s will as revealed through His creation of human sexuality.

How 'bout this:
ABC and NFP are not alike, if they were, more folks would be using NFP.

 

[edwest2]

I invite everyone to read the following:

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html

God bless,
Ed

 

[BruceK]

How 'bout this:
ABC and NFP are not alike, if they were, more folks would be using NFP.

Ok but more to the point, what’s your feedback on the quote from my antagonist:
“It is moral to artificially thwart the transmission of life because doing so violates no moral principle.” What’s faulty about what he said?

 

[mark_a]

**Ok but more to the point, what’s your feedback on the quote from my antagonist: **
"It is moral to artificially thwart the transmission of life because doing so violates no moral principle." What’s faulty about what he said?

I’m afraid any feedback I could give would be rooted in the Church’s teaching that sex is for bonding and procreation between one man and one woman married to each other.

Which is rooted in the teaching authority of the Church.

Which, not surprisingly, is unacceptable to most people, even Catholics.

But don’t feel you need to “win” this debate with him (or her). The fact that they have not tired of it means you are pricking his or her conscience.

 

[BruceK]

Here’s the latest exchange I’ve been having with this supporter of contraception and his moral justification of such. My words are in bold:
**how is it possibly moral to thwart the transmission of life by artificial gadgets, surgical alteration, or the pill? **<<

My Antagonist: <It is moral to artificially thwart the transmission of life because doing so violates no moral principle. artificial birth contol (ABC) like Natural Family Planning(NFP) cooperates with God’s will as revealed through His creation of human sexuality.>

Ok, but why stop there? Why not legalise abortions under certain circumstances? Some mainline protestant denominations have already done that, and most birth control pills are abortifacient in of themselves. So where do you draw that clear line? <<

He replies: You draw the line between those actions which are evil and those which are not: between killing an unborn fetus (evil) and artificial birth control which is not.

What is specifically flawed about his argument and what would be the best rebuttal of such?

 

[milkbar]

There is no rebuttal the other person will accept if they do not first accept the authority of the Church, our moral compass.

Here’s a good place for the other person to start:
scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

 

[markxcool]

milkbar is right, it all comes down to the Church authority.

This debate can go back and forth forever and most of the arguments will be convincing not because of what they contain, but by how they are delivered. The more articulate and clever arguments will be the most convincing… until the next thoughtful, clever punch-line is posted.

But… guess what? All this ground was covered before by the Papal Commission on Birth Control (detailed here in Wikipedia)… so we can actually cut to the chase and see what the greatest minds of multiple disciplines in the Church actually concluded - after most of them showed up at the table opposed to contraception…

They overwhelmingly agreed that birth control was acceptable in their Majority Report (a copy is found here).

The only argument that the 4 dissenters from the Papal Commission could use to hold any water was that of Church Authority… so it became only too clear that the core of the problem was not the pill, but the authority. continuity, and infallibility of the Church’s magisterium.

So we can share examples, analogies and symbolism and pine over what is natural (or not), what is God’s will (or not), what is moral (or not), but all of this is post factum - its all pulled together to justify the Church’s position after the Church took its position… it did not lead to the Church’s conclusion, but is what the minority in control of Church Authority could muster after they made their decision.

A decision ignored by 98% percent of Catholic faithful… which has to count for something! Yes, the church is ***not *a democracy, but if we are honest we must also add that the Church is *not a dictatorship *either.

The Church continues to pain Herself into a corner, unable to practice the humility that it preaches and say that closed minded obstinate clerics within made a bad call. So they ride out this fiasco as if the passage of time will resolve it, occasionally reaffirming that they can’t be wrong.

For those in this thread who argue that ABC is wrong because its harmful to one’s health, let me remind you that if there was a “perfect”, “healthly” and completely “safe” method of artificial birth control it still would be forbidden by the Church. So arguments in this line are neither here nor there, they are besides the point.

Its not about what is harmful or healthy, etc. Its because the Church said so. For 2000 years this used to be good enough, but, in our modern age, children of God require a little more than “because I said so” from their Mother (the Church). And, as life would tell us, mother is not always right because she says so.

What makes me particularly amused is the amount of blame is put on contraception for the ills of our age, the Culture of Death. This is such a major FAIL in logic that I am frequently baffled. According to Doctrine, there are Seven Deadly Sins - and contraception IS NOT one of them… from this perspective, PRIDE and LUST are likely the culprits.

More to the point: contraception* is a symptom*, not a cause. People don’t become proud and lustful because they use contraception. They are proud and lustful and therefore use contraception.

So, as we point to the culprits behind abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality and other Culture of Death “products”, it would be worthwhile to identify the actual causes… which may be identified as an extremely lack of faith, lack of hope and lack of love in our world.

Sorry for rambling, but sometimes I just vent about this, since there are so many things twisted and misrepresented that it is an ongoing frustration of mine.

I might not have all my ducks in a row, there might be holes in my points, etc., but we can all agree that this issue comes down to Church Authority… just as the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control pointed out, there is nothing in Church tradition, Scripture or Natural Law that would make contraception unacceptable to Catholics.

…unless it was arbitrarily decided so by Church Authority and all the reasoning was spun to suit its arguments later on.

Pray for me as I pray for you. May God bless us all!

 

[kozlosap]

:thumbsup:I’ve often wondered why no one brings up the argument that the commission WAS in favor of allowing ABC and that a minority shot it down. In addition, the use of condoms in Africa would help with the spread of AIDS/HIV, and I don’t just mean with prostitutes, I mean with the heterosexual population. Visit an orphanage for the children of AIDs victims in Capetown and then tell the world that the use of condoms is immoral…

 

[markxcool]

milkbar is right, it all comes down to the Church authority.

This debate can go back and forth forever and most of the arguments will be convincing not because of what they contain, but by how they are delivered. The more articulate and clever arguments will be the most convincing… until the next thoughtful, clever punch-line is posted.

But… guess what? All this ground was covered before by the Papal Commission on Birth Control (detailed here in Wikipedia)… so we can actually cut to the chase and see what the greatest minds of multiple disciplines in the Church actually concluded - after most of them showed up at the table opposed to contraception…

They overwhelmingly agreed that birth control was acceptable in their Majority Report (a copy is found here).

The only argument that the 4 dissenters from the Papal Commission could use to hold any water was that of Church Authority… so it became only too clear that the core of the problem was not the pill, but the authority. continuity, and infallibility of the Church’s magisterium.

So we can share examples, analogies and symbolism and pine over what is natural (or not), what is God’s will (or not), what is moral (or not), but all of this is post factum - its all pulled together to justify the Church’s position after the Church took its position… it did not lead to the Church’s conclusion, but is what the minority in control of Church Authority could muster after they made their decision.

A decision ignored by 98% percent of Catholic faithful… which has to count for something! Yes, the church is ***not *a democracy, but if we are honest we must also add that the Church is *not a dictatorship *either.

The Church continues to pain Herself into a corner, unable to practice the humility that it preaches and say that closed minded obstinate clerics within made a bad call. So they ride out this fiasco as if the passage of time will resolve it, occasionally reaffirming that they can’t be wrong.

For those in this thread who argue that ABC is wrong because its harmful to one’s health, let me remind you that if there was a “perfect”, “healthly” and completely “safe” method of artificial birth control it still would be forbidden by the Church. So arguments in this line are neither here nor there, they are besides the point.

Its not about what is harmful or healthy, etc. Its because the Church said so. For 2000 years this used to be good enough, but, in our modern age, children of God require a little more than “because I said so” from their Mother (the Church). And, as life would tell us, mother is not always right because she says so.

What makes me particularly amused is the amount of blame is put on contraception for the ills of our age, the Culture of Death. This is such a major FAIL in logic that I am frequently baffled. According to Doctrine, there are Seven Deadly Sins - and contraception IS NOT one of them… from this perspective, PRIDE and LUST are likely the culprits.

More to the point: contraception* is a symptom*, not a cause. People don’t become proud and lustful because they use contraception. They are proud and lustful and therefore use contraception.

So, as we point to the culprits behind abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality and other Culture of Death “products”, it would be worthwhile to identify the actual causes… which may be identified as an extremely lack of faith, lack of hope and lack of love in our world.

Sorry for rambling, but sometimes I just vent about this, since there are so many things twisted and misrepresented that it is an ongoing frustration of mine.

I might not have all my ducks in a row, there might be holes in my points, etc., but we can all agree that this issue comes down to Church Authority… just as the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control pointed out, there is nothing in Church tradition, Scripture or Natural Law that would make contraception unacceptable to Catholics.

…unless it was arbitrarily decided so by Church Authority and all the reasoning was spun to suit its arguments later on.

Pray for me as I pray for you. May God bless us all!

 

[markxcool]

:thumbsup:I’ve often wondered why no one brings up the argument that the commission WAS in favor of allowing ABC and that a minority shot it down. In addition, the use of condoms in Africa would help with the spread of AIDS/HIV, and I don’t just mean with prostitutes, I mean with the heterosexual population. Visit an orphanage for the children of AIDs victims in Capetown and then tell the world that the use of condoms is immoral…

Yes, talk about intellectual dishonesty! All the argumentation that is embraced by the few who tow the “party” line (anti-ABC) flies in the face of even stronger argumentation produced by the Church herself that favoured ABC… Its as if the reasons don’t matter (they can be fabricated later on!), the important thing is be cool with the boss.

The Church has the Power of the Keys and the mission from Jesus Christ to make decisions on what is good and bad… yes, the power given the Church by Christ is that powerful! Yet it seemingly insists on pretending that it can’t allow some things in the face of such tremendous need. This is criminal and has turned off many people from the Church.

Such is the classic example of condoms in Africa.

It is ridiculous to pretend that we can show up preaching high level philosophical reasoning for abstinence and celibacy to a continent of starving, uneducated and horny people… Sure we would like them to all understand the reasoning and comply to the higher ideal for sexual relationships, but a broken, disturbed, uneducated and desperate people seeking escape through sex despite the risks is not going to care for our lofty principals forced upon everyone by decree. Lets get real.

Just like Moses allowed for divorce in the Old Testament, because of the “hardness of their hearts”, so can the Church allow for condoms in Africa, “because of the hardness of their hearts”, until, at least, they can be healed, settled, educated and celebrated as the children of God that they are.

There is a grievous crime happening before our eyes and it is so sad to see that the very people who should see this for what it is and do something about it are too busy pontificating (pun intended).

 

[milkbar]

“Because I said so” is a good enough reason coming from God. If you can’t see why “Because I said so” is therefore a good enough reason coming from the Church, the Bride of Christ, then you need to dust off your Catechism.

 

[TimothyH]

It is ridiculous to pretend that we can show up preaching high level philosophical reasoning for abstinence and celibacy to a continent of starving, uneducated and horny people… Sure we would like them to all understand the reasoning and comply to the higher ideal for sexual relationships, but a broken, disturbed, uneducated and desperate people seeking escape through sex despite the risks is not going to care for our lofty principals forced upon everyone by decree. Lets get real.

Starving, uneducated, horny people??? Broken, disturbed, desperate, seeking escape through sex despite the risk???

How dare you!

You act like they are nothing more than animals, with peanut size brains and no ability to think or reason.

So what is America’s excuse? Is western society not a bunch of highly educated, over-fed, horny people, disturbed, desperate, seeking escape through sex in spite of the risk?

And what is the legacy of all this supposed education and virtue which you alone possess? It is a culture of recreational sex, the root cause of which is contraception and the result of which is homosexuality, aids, teenage pregnacy and 50 million butchered infants.

Do you not believe in God? Do you not believe that the same God to whom you pray can also move a Nigerian or Somali to faith? Or is reason, intellect and faith something God reseves for you alone?

“Because I said so” is a good enough reason coming from God. If you can’t see why “Because I said so” is therefore a good enough reason coming from the Church, the Bride of Christ, then you need to dust off your Catechism.

Amen.

Christ gave authority to the Holy Catholic Church to intepret Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and to teach on matters of faith and morals based on that interpretation. To reject the teaching of the Church on a matter of morality or religious truth is to reject the authority under which the Church operates and that authority is Jesus Christ, and therefore God himself. When you reject the magesterium of the Church, you reject God.

The magesterium of the Church has spoken. Contraception is a sin. You are either Catholic or you are not.

-Tim-

 

[markxcool]

Thank you so much milkbar and TimothyH for your replies. Much appreciated.

“Because I said so” is a good enough reason coming from God. If you can’t see why “Because I said so” is therefore a good enough reason coming from the Church, the Bride of Christ, then you need to dust off your Catechism.

Basically you are saying that* we should have FAITH* in Church authority, since it is God-given. The gift of Faith that we receive at baptism is Faith in God, not faith in the frail human structure that represents His authority.

To surrender our critical thinking and just do as Pope Paul VI alone thought best, against the conclusions of essentially all Church specialists of every discipline… Against the conclusions of the very church leaders and most scholared clerics who concluded, over years of study - and after initially being opposed to ABC -** that there was nothing in Church Tradition, nothing in Sacred Scripture and nothing in Natural Law that would prevent the Church from approving ABC. **

Frail human management aside, it all boils down to the deposit of doctrine that has been distilled from Revelation and the thinking of the great Doctors of the Church (to put it simply) over the ages. And guess what? There is nothing there that the Papal Commission found to prevent Church approval of ABC.

In the case of ABC, Church teaching is not binding to Catholics whose consciences excuse them from following it. Don’t agree? Well go argue with the bishops who signed the Winnepeg Statement and refused to retract it by secret vote as recently as 1998.

The fact that essentially zero Catholic couples ever headed this anti-ABC teaching, yet in every other way continue to live as faithful Catholics is an incredible phenomenon. One that signifies something but is conveniently written off by those who can’t begin to understand that it is a complicated world and spirituality that surrounds us and demand that things be black and white when God never intended it to be so.

I’ll try to get to TimothyH excellent post when I get back… gotta run!

 

[markxcool]

…How dare you!

You act like they are nothing more than animals, with peanut size brains and no ability to think or reason.

Yeah, sorry for rocking the boat. My intention was to shake things up a bit to provoke thought, to break complacency and inspire reflection. If reaction to my words include indignation… mission accomplished.

Lets flip things… how dare you demand lofty strict standards from a people who have never experienced a safe, stable and sophisticated environment such as us who comfortably sit being our computer screens with our stomachs full, our homes and towns safe, friends and family around, and a comfortable life/work balance…

You have no idea how hard life has been for the majority of people in Africa… lets not even get started with this… there is no comparison.

They are just as animal as you and me, but we are in a zoo and they are in the wild. Yes, they are called to the same virtue and holiness as us, yes they have mental faculties the same as us… but lets not pretend for a minute that they have had the care, the privilege, the education, the formation, etc., etc., that we have had - so don’t you dare demand the same standards from them!

Any missionary will tell us that conversion is a process. It takes time. It takes learning. It takes patience. It takes grace. The downtrodden of Africa will hopefully surpass us fat westerners some day, but for the moment it is darn right cruel and unacceptable that as a Church we forbid them the “band aid” (i.e.: condoms/contraception) that is so clearly needed to prevent or at least reduce the rampant sickness and death that plagues the continent.

So what is America’s excuse? Is western society not a bunch of highly educated, over-fed, horny people, disturbed, desperate, seeking escape through sex in spite of the risk?

Please recognize that Africa is a classical example in the contraception debate because it really is such a clear cut case.

When it comes to America/Western Society, condoms/contraception is also acceptable, just ask the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control. They did all the home work for you, just read their conclusions.

And what is the legacy of all this supposed education and virtue which you alone possess? It is a culture of recreational sex, the root cause of which is contraception and the result of which is homosexuality, aids, teenage pregnacy and 50 million butchered infants.

Me? I’m uneducated and a sinner. Please pray for me. For some reason, though, this issue is very clear for me, hence I attempt to share my thoughts on it.

Yes, we have a culture of recreational sex but the root cause is NOT contraception… come on, now… would you stop chasing ghosts!? Oh, I get it… lets blame the one thing we really don’t have an solid argument against, this way we can paint it as the bogeyman and despite our logic and justifications being flawed, people will try and shoot it down and blame it for everything and hopefully this will make our case stick at least a little.

I’ve explained earlier how contraception is not a cause but a symptom… I don’t know how clutching the mantra of contraception being the root of all evil is going to change that.

Do you not believe in God? Do you not believe that the same God to whom you pray can also move a Nigerian or Somali to faith? Or is reason, intellect and faith something God reseves for you alone?

Gee… this isn’t about me. I’m a nobody. Thankfully, I believe in God. The same God that any Nigerian or Somali counts on. Such a uneducated and sinful person as I somehow is able to recognize that our God is more reasonable than an arbitrary Church edict would make it appear. Thankfully, 98% of Catholic couples also believe so, and live peacefully with ABC.

Christ gave authority to the Holy Catholic Church to intepret Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and to teach on matters of faith and morals based on that interpretation. To reject the teaching of the Church on a matter of morality or religious truth is to reject the authority under which the Church operates and that authority is Jesus Christ, and therefore God himself. When you reject the magesterium of the Church, you reject God.

The magesterium of the Church has spoken. Contraception is a sin. You are either Catholic or you are not.

Thanks, -Tim-, for putting it so clearly.

The Church DID interpret Scripture and Tradition and I’ve already mentioned the result: they approved ABC (see the Majority Report). What happened then is a handful of die-hard dissenters persuaded Pope Paul VI to make a call contrary to the Church’s interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

So, -Tim-, it does you no good service to use the argument of Church interpretation. That backfires for you, since Church’s commissioned interpretation approved ABC.

After Pope Paul VI arbitrarily decided that the Church, as such, would officially condemn ABC, we saw such magically hypnotic, confusing, long-winded, spun, theological, philosophical, abstract, subjective, symbolic and TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE argumentation formulated to support the case against ABC. Argumentation that Pope JPII spent most of his pontificate trying to ram home as well, with no effect (wonder why?).

-Tim-, do you realize you are declaring 98% of Catholics not Catholic, since they accept ABC? Not even the Pope has done this, so hold your horses.

Don’t try to paint the majority of Catholics into a corner because they don’t share you black and white view of things. The majority of Catholics love God, yet they do not abide by Church teaching on ABC. This does not amount to rejection of God, maybe not even an explicit rejection of the Magisterium… rather, they merely live a life of Faith, doing their best… and this is essentially what God - and His Church - wants from all of us.

 

[milkbar]

Basically you are saying that* we should have FAITH* in Church authority, since it is God-given. The gift of Faith that we receive at baptism is Faith in God, not faith in the frail human structure that represents His authority.

To surrender our critical thinking and [etc. etc. etc.]

Why in the world are you Catholic if you don’t believe the Pope has the PERFECT guidance of the Holy Spirit?

 

[BruceK]

Why in the world are you Catholic if you don’t believe the Pope has the PERFECT guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Indeed. Markxcool sets up this false dichotomy that the beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church (and of course, Christianity) are somehow contrary to reason.

 

[BruceK]

milkbar is right, it all comes down to the Church authority.

This debate can go back and forth forever and most of the arguments will be convincing not because of what they contain, but by how they are delivered. The more articulate and clever arguments will be the most convincing… until the next thoughtful, clever punch-line is posted.

Papal Commission on Birth Control actually concluded - after most of them showed up at the table opposed to contraception…

They overwhelmingly agreed that birth control was acceptable in their Majority Report The only argument that the 4 dissenters from the Papal Commission could use to hold any water was that of Church Authority… so it became only too clear that the core of the problem was not the pill, but the authority. continuity, and infallibility of the Church’s magisterium.

So we can share examples, analogies and symbolism and pine over what is natural (or not), what is God’s will (or not), what is moral (or not), but all of this is post factum - its all pulled together to justify the Church’s position after the Church took its position… it did not lead to the Church’s conclusion, but is what the minority in control of Church Authority could muster after they made their decision.

A decision ignored by 98% percent of Catholic faithful… which has to count for something! Yes, the church is ***not ***a democracy, but if we are honest we must also add that the Church is not a dictatorship either.

For those in this thread who argue that ABC is wrong because its harmful to one’s health, let me remind you that if there was a “perfect”, “healthly” and completely “safe” method of artificial birth control it still would be forbidden by the Church. So arguments in this line are neither here nor there, they are besides the point.

Its not about what is harmful or healthy, etc. Its because the Church said so. For 2000 years this used to be good enough, but, in our modern age, children of God require a little more than “because I said so” from their Mother (the Church). And, as life would tell us, mother is not always right because she says so.

What makes me particularly amused is the amount of blame is put on contraception for the ills of our age, the Culture of Death. This is such a major FAIL in logic that I am frequently baffled. According to Doctrine, there are - and contraception IS NOT one of them… from this perspective, PRIDE and LUST are likely the culprits.

More to the point: contraception* is a symptom*, not a cause. People don’t become proud and lustful because they use contraception. They are proud and lustful and therefore use contraception.

So, as we point to the culprits behind abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality and other Culture of Death “products”, it would be worthwhile to identify the actual causes… which may be identified as an extremely lack of faith, lack of hope and lack of love in our world.

I might not have all my ducks in a row, there might be holes in my points, etc., but we can all agree that this issue comes down to Church Authority… just as the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control pointed out, there is nothing in Church tradition, Scripture or Natural Law that would make contraception unacceptable to Catholics.

…unless it was arbitrarily decided so by Church Authority and all the reasoning was spun to suit its arguments later on.

Pray for me as I pray for you. May God bless us all!

First of all, the sensus fidelium are not those who dissent or reject some of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Second, the Papal Commission on Birth Control was not part of the Magisterium of the Church. So your assertion “A decision ignored by 98% percent of Catholic faithful… which has to count for something!” would only count for something if you’re willing to concede that the argumentive fallacy Argumentum as Populum or bandwagaon fallacy is a valid way of determing and uholding absolute truth.
Third, there is nothing in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and natural law to suggest the that artificial brith control (ABC) is morally acceptable. To try to pretend otherwise is almost blasphemous.
The 4 “dissenters” on that Commission were not dissenters against the Church and its teachings. I admit the dissenting report could have been more nuanced and compelling in its arguments; Fr. Ford S.J. clearly dropped the ball on this one.
The fact of the matter is Un til the early part of the 20th century virtually all of Christianity and Judaism were steadfastly against ABC, which should tell you something. The Church’s stance against ABC was not declared infallible “Ex Cathedra” but it does, never-the-less, fulfill the criteria of an infallible teaching. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus said, “You shall know them by their fruits.” Many of the mainline protestsant churches and denominatons that have since allowed ABC have subsequently allowed openly gay members of the clergy, blessing of same-sex unions, legalising same-sex marriages,and in some cases condoning abortion under certain circumstances. Coincidence? I think not. It should also be pointed out that the rate of cohabitation,break-up and divorce is over 50% among Catholics who practice ABC whereas those who practice NFP is less than 5%. Finally, at the end of the day it comes down to authority. I think Jesus was very clear and unequivical when he stated, " whetever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt.ch.16
“He that hears you, hears me.” Luke 10 My only question to you is what part of that do oyu have trouble understanding? P.S. Thanks for keeping me in your prayers, I’ll do the same for you.

 

[markxcool]

Thank you milkbar and BruceK for your posts.

I think we are right at the verge of where this debate starts to go in circles, arguments are intentionally misunderstood or, more often, ignored and where any weakness in delivering a point is pounced on to discredit other clear, valid and important reasoning.

Why in the world are you Catholic if you don’t believe the Pope has the PERFECT guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Interesting how the ABC debate is now right where it belongs: its about Church authority - its not about contraception in light of scripture, tradition or nature.

Divine guidance (Holy Spirit) is on tap to the Pope only on certain issues (faith and morals) and in certain ways (ex cathedra and a few other ways). There is context and requirements and a whole lot of mitigating factors that can come into play.

When it comes to ABC and Church authority, we have a very public, unique and highly relevant case of flagrant disregard of counsel and mischievous deceitful manipulation within the Curia. I recommend the book “The Turning Point”, if you are interested in knowing the incredible story of how this all went down.

Indeed. Markxcool sets up this false dichotomy that the beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church (and of course, Christianity) are somehow contrary to reason.

I had to look up the word “dichotomy” to find out what it means.

*dichotomy /dʌɪˈkɒtəmi, dɪ-/
:arrow_forward:noun (pl. dichotomies)
* 1 a division or contrast between two things that are opposed or entirely different. *

Just to clarify… markxcool hereby affirms that there is no inherent conflict between religion and science, faith and reason or spirituality and reality.

Now I hereby reiterate that no one, that no Catholic, is required to accept an “I told you so, so do it” order from Church authority. Guidance, Dogma and Doctrine MUST be accompanied - and almost always is! - by reasons, explanations and logic.

In the case of the Church’s ABC policy, all the reasons, explanations and logic mustered by Church experts on the issue was in favour of ABC and only after an arbitrary decision to the contrary do we see, and continue to see, attempts to explain away their decision.

Finally, a Church policy that has never been accepted by the body of Church faithful cannot be considered ex cathedra, infallible or from the Holy Spirit. The Church of God is not a dictatorship… one of the Pope’s titles is, beautifully and meaningfully… Servant of the Servant’s of God.

Just like the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was made a reality because of the ground-swell support for it from the Catholic World, so too does acceptance of Church teaching have a close correlation to their validity.

Please don’t start with the “Church is not a democracy” rehash. Its neither a democracy nor a dictatorship… its the Church of God with very unique rules and circumstances. Lets appreciate this.

 

[milkbar]

Thank you milkbar and BruceK for your posts.

I think we are right at the verge of where this debate starts to go in circles, arguments are intentionally misunderstood or, more often, ignored and where any weakness in delivering a point is pounced on to discredit other clear, valid and important reasoning.

Interesting how the ABC debate is now right where it belongs: its about Church authority - its not about contraception in light of scripture, tradition or nature.

Divine guidance (Holy Spirit) is on tap to the Pope only on certain issues (faith and morals) and in certain ways (ex cathedra and a few other ways). There is context and requirements and a whole lot of mitigating factors that can come into play.

If the Church says something is a sin and you’re disagreeing, you’re in moral territory.

Try this out:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

Two pertinent excerpts, emphasis mine:

*18. Unfortunately these advocates of novelty easily pass from despising scholastic theology to the neglect of and even contempt for the Teaching Authority of the Church itself, which gives such authoritative approval to scholastic theology. This Teaching Authority is represented by them as a hindrance to progress and an obstacle in the way of science. Some non-Catholics consider it as an unjust restraint preventing some more qualified theologians from reforming their subject. And although this sacred Office of Teacher in matters of faith and morals must be the proximate and universal criterion of truth for all theologians, since to it has been entrusted by Christ Our Lord the whole deposit of faith - Sacred Scripture and divine Tradition - to be preserved, guarded and interpreted, still the duty that is incumbent on the faithful to flee also those errors which more or less approach heresy, and accordingly “to keep also the constitutions and decrees by which such evil opinions are proscribed and forbidden by the Holy See,”[2] is sometimes as little known as if it did not exist.

1. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”;[3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute,** it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians.***