Contraception- experts please (don't want anyone who apposes the Catholic view)

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This is what I mean by us sometimes doing a disservice to Church teaching. We have no reason to suspect a diabolical profit-driven intentional provision of the potentially abortifacient properties of contraception…
Are you saying that the pharmaceutical companies are not driven by profit? Are you saying that the pharmaceutical companies are not trying to limit their product liability? Are you saying that the pharmaceutical companies always behave in an ethical manner and do not bias or hide the data ever?
 
Are you saying that a single women cannot take the pill for health reasons. The Church does allow it because the intention of contraception is not present and the physical contraception is not present.
I think the intent was to say that the church does not require a person to be sexually inactive or post-menopausal to take contraceptive drugs for legitimate health reasons.
 
…On the contrary, the very science involved being manipulated to prevent conception by its very nature leads to the secondary effect. You couldn’t avoid it if you wanted to…
Why do you call the abortifacient effect a secondary effect if it is part of the very own nature of the pill. When you state that “you could not avoid it if you wanted to…” you affirm that people are willing to commit murder if the sperm is not stopped before fertilizing the egg.
 
I think the intent was to say that the church does not require a person to be sexually inactive or post-menopausal to take contraceptive drugs for legitimate health reasons.
Who are referring to? Which post? :confused:
 
Why do you call the abortifacient effect a secondary effect if it is part of the very own nature of the pill. When you state that “you could not avoid it if you wanted to…” you affirm that people are willing to commit murder if the sperm is not stopped before fertilizing the egg.
Many drugs can have abortifacient properties. That does not mean correctly using them is a sin.
 
Many drugs can have abortifacient properties. That does not mean correctly using them is a sin.
You are correct if you do not use them for contraception! However, If you use an abortifacient for contraception you are accepting the abortion as a viable method.
 
Are you saying that a single women cannot take the pill for health reasons. The Church does allow it because the intention of contraception is not present and the physical contraception is not present.
What I was saying is that it appears as if Baltobetsy was actually saying that Ron Conte was mistaken in his post that stated that it was only morally acceptable to take contraceptives for health reasons if one were sexually inactive or post-menopausal.

I’m sorry I can’t figure out how to do the multiple quotes or I’d include them. 🤷
 
Are you saying that the pharmaceutical companies are not driven by profit? Are you saying that the pharmaceutical companies are not trying to limit their product liability? Are you saying that the pharmaceutical companies always behave in an ethical manner and do not bias or hide the data ever?
No. I’m saying that drugs companies are not mustacio twisting fiends actively seeking for ways to commit murder. That came about as an unintended side effect of the primary function of the contraceptive. No demonstrable intent to murder by either patient or drug company.
 
No. I’m saying that drugs companies are not mustacio twisting fiends actively seeking for ways to commit murder. That came about as an unintended side effect of the primary function of the contraceptive. No demonstrable intent to murder by either patient or drug company.
Suppose that you had to get to work, but that there was a demonstrator sleeping on your dirveway and refusing to move. Then as you reversed your car getting out of the driveway, intending to fo to work, you drove over the person lying in the driveway and killed him as an unintended effect. You did not intend to kill the person, but it was only an unintended effect of your need to drive to work.
Still, you are guilty of murder in that case, because there were other options. Similarly in the case of the abortifacient birth control pill. You would be guilty of murder in aborting the embryo, because there are other options such as abstinence., The fact that it was unintended is really irrelevant in this case to the fact that you have committed murder in killing the embryo, which is a human person, just as you have committed murder when you drove over the person sleeping in your driveway.
 
Suppose that you had to get to work, but that there was a demonstrator sleeping on your dirveway and refusing to move. Then as you reversed your car getting out of the driveway, intending to fo to work, you drove over the person lying in the driveway and killed him as an unintended effect. You did not intend to kill the person, but it was only an unintended effect of your need to drive to work.
Still, you are guilty of murder in that case, because there were other options. Similarly in the case of the abortifacient birth control pill. You would be guilty of murder in aborting the embryo, because there are other options such as abstinence., The fact that it was unintended is really irrelevant in this case to the fact that you have committed murder in killing the embryo, which is a human person, just as you have committed murder when you drove over the person sleeping in your driveway.
But, the act of treating pathology can always have some untoward result. There is no moral prohibition from treating pathology because a bad side effect may happen.

Why drive a car? It is possible every time you drive you may accidently kill some person. You should only walk, ever. Right?
 
But, the act of treating pathology can always have some untoward result. There is no moral prohibition from treating pathology because a bad side effect may happen.

Why drive a car? It is possible every time you drive you may accidently kill some person. You should only walk, ever. Right?
I was speaking about the case where there were other alternatives available. If there are no other alternatives for the illness in question, then probably your argument is OK.
But in using an abortifacient birth control pill for contraceptive purposes, there are other alternatives available which would not lead to abortion. Some are moral, such as abstinence, others are not, such as condoms, but in either case you would not be killing a human person.
Similarly if you see a person sleeping in your driveway and you have to get to work, there are other alternatives available so you don’t have to run him over in order to get to work.
 
Well, contraception is intrinsically wrong. It is never justified.

You cannot contracept for health reasons. You can take medication, or have procedures, to treat a pathology that result in temp or permanent sterility as an unintended consequence.
That’s an interesting point. The pill does not make one sterile. Rather it is an abortifacient (sp?). Since it does not prevent conception, is this still an acceptable unintended consequence?
 
Contraception is intrinsically evil and therefore always immoral.

The contraceptive pill is sometimes prescribed for health reasons, but it would only be moral to use in these instances if the woman is not sexually active while taking the pill, or if the woman is post-menopausal.

The principle of double effect does not apply to acts that are intrinsically evil.
Contraception requires intent. Intent is lacking when using a medication, any medication for that matter, that would have contraceptive effects. Prednisone is one example, in the proper dose.
What I was saying is that it appears as if Baltobetsy was actually saying that Ron Conte was mistaken…
😃 😃

Sorry. It just reminded me of the scene in Blazing Saddles where they’re in the town meeting and Howard Johnson says something like, “I think Sam Johnson is right about Olsen Johnson being right…”.

😃
 
Contraception is intrinsically evil and therefore always immoral.

The contraceptive pill is sometimes prescribed for health reasons, but it would only be moral to use in these instances if the woman is not sexually active while taking the pill, or if the woman is post-menopausal.

The principle of double effect does not apply to acts that are intrinsically evil.
Ron Conte, I’m pretty sure that it is also immoral to use any type of artificial contraception even when the woman is post-menopausal or has had surgical sterilization.
 
Ron Conte, I’m pretty sure that it is also immoral to use any type of artificial contraception even when the woman is post-menopausal or has had surgical sterilization.
Use of the birth control pill for medical reasons in a post-menopausal woman would not fit the definition of contraception. It is the same pill, but it is not acting as a contraceptive. The same is true for a woman who is not sexually active, or who has had a hysterectomy and so cannot conceive.
 
Use of the birth control pill for medical reasons in a post-menopausal woman would not fit the definition of contraception. It is the same pill, but it is not acting as a contraceptive. The same is true for a woman who is not sexually active, or who has had a hysterectomy and so cannot conceive.
I believe the church’s teaching is that the use of the birth control pill for medical reasons is not immoral regardless of whether or not the woman is sexually active or has had a hysterectomy. For the sake of argument, I’m assuming the sexual activity is in the context of marriage.
 
What I was saying is that it appears as if Baltobetsy was actually saying that Ron Conte was mistaken in his post that stated that it was only morally acceptable to take contraceptives for health reasons if one were sexually inactive or post-menopausal.
Thank you, JulianN. That’s exactly what I was saying, and am still waiting for Ron Conte to back up this statement with some citations from Church documents. Apparently he is unable to do so, leaving us to conclude that he is incorrect.

Betsy
 
When can a person use contraceptive-
a) I understand for health reasons.
but can they use it
b) in accords with the law of dual effect,
if
c) their health could not afford the result?

please give me references and the official answer, and opinions where useful, I do want the thread answered.👍
No reason, whatsoever justifies the use of contraception towards the end of unnaturally preventing children.

As to the health reasons given for use other than that, well, it still bothers me when it’s more damage allowed, so I still am searching. I am glad the church forbids such.
Again, I agree, with both, and am just as much confused as before, because the Catechism also says causing indirect evil, is also evil, they say it is only physical evil, but that is simply saying it’s materially evil, what many falsely call grave sin, but which is the substance, the matter itself of mortal offense, and deadly insanity against nature, which is why I so much am perplexed.

Perhaps using it for another means, but with the knowledge of it’s result, only a life-threatening disease should warrant that, or am I incorrect? I understand taking warm baths, which affect fertility, but that is a natural working of heat, and not the intent, but then I still am perplexed, even as my own example proves nothing, baths are different from the pill.
There are some problems inherit in the question
  1. Contraception has a different science meaning than Church meaning. In the Church’s definition “contraception” is used to mean artificial processes used to prevent pregnancy resulting from relations. These practices are said to be intrinsically evil.
  2. A medicine as mentioned before is a medicine which may or may not interfere with conception. So it can only contraception if the medicine has the ability to contraception and the natural relations which could create pregnancy are present in conjunction with the medicine.
  3. Dual affect and serious health quality do not seem to be primary to the issue.
So if a woman is taking progesterone pills for acme and not having relations there is no sin issue. Similarly if a man is wearing latex but not having relations again no issue if you look at ectopic pregnancies the action intended to save a life does result in unwanted consequences however it is not a greater good it is simply and unwanted result.

So in summary the pill, plastic, copper tube, removal of a tube, etc are not intrinsically evil however any intent to use them to prevent the natural conception process from relations is evil.

Hope that helps
 
  1. A medicine as mentioned before is a medicine which may or may not interfere with conception. So it can only contraception if the medicine has the ability to contraception and the natural relations which could create pregnancy are present in conjunction with the medicine.
Are you saying that the “medicine has the ability to contraception” and the “natural relations which could create pregnancy are present”? Are both required in order to be considered contraception, and hence illegitimate?

Still not answered clearly is in relation to an abortifacient medicine. If such medicine is not taken for the purposes of contraception, is it legitimate to have sexual relations while taking such mediation? Since it does not prevent conception, is legitimate to take such medication and have sexual relations?

What about pills that genuine make one sterile, or nearly sterile, such as a pill that reduces sperm count? Can these be taken and still have sexual relations, provided the end is not to prevent conception?
 
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