Contraception is just like bulemia!

[Aquarius]

luvmykids:

Right, just like a lot of people can express their love without having sex at all! They find other ways.

By the way, gardenswithkids was stating a fact, when you contracept, you AREN’T giving your fertility are you? How is this just an idea or an attitude? What do you think the pupose of a contraceptive is? You wouldn’t be giving everything you had at that point it time, you ARE holding back something.

Glad you accept that love can be expressd in different ways by different folks. That makes it much easier. That allows unique relationships to develop betwen unique people.

So, why should someone think giving fertility is an expression of love? Better, why should someone think using ABC is not an expresion of love?

The purpose of a contraceptive is to prevent conception.

What’s wrong with holding back something and not giving everything?

 

[Aquarius]

luvmykids:

I’m sure you are proud of them, but sometimes when you don’t look at the big picture, the analogies don’t fit. But they are cute.

Analogies like Bulemia?

 

[luvmykids]

Aquarius:

Is sin a function of the individual and God, or the chorus of busy bodies?

Intimacy is also a function of the individual. Condoms may not be intimate for you. OK. But are you telling everyone else they too should deny the intimacy?

OK. you are telling me that you see no difference in using a condom then when not using one? And no, I am not telling everyone else they should or shouldn’t anything, so please stop making that assumption.

 

[luvmykids]

Aquarius:

So, why should someone think giving fertility is an expression of love?

Because it is an expression of love. Would you give your fertility to someone you didn’t love? It says I love you so much and am so committed to you that I am willing to have your baby.

Aquarius:

What’s wrong with holding back something and not giving everything?

Because when you are married, you are to become one flesh. Give all of yourselves to each other. Everytime you have sex you renew those vows.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Aquarius:

There seems to be an idea that everybody expresses their love the same way in some predefined formula, and certain attitudes are always expressions of love for everybody. How on earth would anyone know?

This probably won’t make any sense to agnostics and atheists, but I’m going to try anyway. God truly loves humanity as a whole and each of us as individuals. He created all as images of Himself, and as images of God our ultimate purpose is to love as He loves. To see how God loves us, we look to the cross, to the story of Jesus who loved us so totally that He gave up His very life for us.

That is the predefined formula of how we are called to express our love. What specifics that entails is unique to each individual, but there are some general principles that apply to all. As we sit here at our computers debating Catholic moral theology, I hope that the readers don’t fail to see the forest for the trees. God loves us, and He wants us to love Him in return and love each other as He loves us.

 

[Aquarius]

luvmykids:

OK. you are telling me that you see no difference in using a condom then when not using one? And no, I am not telling everyone else they should or shouldn’t anything, so please stop making that assumption.

There is a difference between using and not using a condom.

But each individual relationship is unique, and love is expresed on a personal basis. So, there is no basis to tell anyone else what they have to accept as an expression of love. When people hear that, they know the speaker doesn’t know what he is talking about regarding their relationship. So they ignore him.

 

[Aquarius]

luvmykids:

Because it is an expression of love. Would you give your fertility to someone you didn’t love? It says I love you so much and am so committed to you that I am willing to have your baby.

Because when you are married, you are to become one flesh. Give all of yourselves to each other. Everytime you have sex you renew those vows.

I think you are telling all of us what our personal expressions of love are. How do you know? If a couple disagrees with you about expression of love in their relationship, are they wrong?

How do you know everyone who is married renews their vows everytime they have intercourse? Do you think that might be news to some folks?

 

[Aquarius]

gardenswithkids:

This probably won’t make any sense to agnostics and atheists, but I’m going to try anyway. God truly loves humanity as a whole and each of us as individuals. He created all as images of Himself, and as images of God our ultimate purpose is to love as He loves. To see how God loves us, we look to the cross, to the story of Jesus who loved us so totally that He gave up His very life for us.

That is the predefined formula of how we are called to express our love. What specifics that entails is unique to each individual, but there are some general principles that apply to all. As we sit here at our computers debating Catholic moral theology, I hope that the readers don’t fail to see the forest for the trees. God loves us, and He wants us to love Him in return and love each other as He loves us.

I agree the specifics entailed are unique to each individual. So, why do so many people want to tell all of us all what our specifics are? How do they know?

 

[gardenswithkids]

Aquarius:

I agree the specifics entailed are unique to each individual. So, why do so many people want to tell all of us all what our specifics are? How do they know?

No one here is telling others the specifics of everything. But there are some general moral principles that apply to everyone.

Societies make laws based on the idea that there are some principles which apply to everyone. Laws such as: don’t steal, don’t murder, etc… Now the definitions of theft and murder may vary, but the principle is recognized by all civilized societies. They’re also in the Bible, but I never hear about anyone getting off of robbery charges based on separation of church and state.

So, do we agree with each other that some specific moral principles, like “don’t steal”, should apply to all?

 

[BlindSheep]

Hitetlen:

No, they can exercise self-control if they so desire. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is when you wish to assume control over other people’s lives by asserting that what they do is “sinful” and they really should abstain. It is not your role to control how other people behave, as long as they do not harm others.

Control? What on earth are you talking about? I am not in the habit of breaking nto people’s houses and stealing their contraceptives! Telling someone they shouldn’t do something is not control, it’s advice, a warning; and I do consider it “my role”, when I see someone placing themselves in what I am quite certain is grave danger, to warn them - in fact, I consider it an obligation. If they disagree, then they will no doubt ignore me, and most likely consider me an idiotic prude as well (not that it bothers me much). At least I will have fulfilled my responsibility.

Precisely. If what you want to do is beneficial and avoiding it is not, why not do it?

Do you honestly think that I would agree with your assessment of contraception as “beneficial”?

Especially since it does not hurt anyone.

It doesn’t? I cannot agree. At the very least it hurts the people who use it.

Just because some old people who either never had sex in their lives (yeah, right! we all know that!) or already forgot what it feels like want you to conform to their wishes? Again, if you let them control you, it is your business. But I and millions of others do not.

If “some old people…want you to conform to their wishes” was the only reason, I agree it would be a weak one; but that isn’t the reason at all, and with all the time you’ve spent here you ought to know that.

 

[cynic]

I don’t have a problem with the Catholic stance on contraception, in that it is a disrespect to the body. However, some of the reasoning behind it - that acting on ones desires is harmful/sinful, because its weak or involves gratification, I find that stuff depressing. How can you say that having sexual relations out of a desire to do so - “mere pleasure” - is sinful - and then allow couples using nfp to do it during infertile times? The logical conclusion of this is that, if there is a valid reason to avoid children, then abstinence must mean COMPLETE abstinence.

The more conservative the side of it is that heterosexual desires for intimacy are simply a means to an end, the end being procreation, they have no value on their own. It’s ussaully held by certain hardasses who think that their church has compromised with the world by talking of ‘unity’.

This morbid view holds that the feelings towards your spouse are not Gods gift to us - they are just an incentive to allow more souls to come into the world, and must be used as such. Deny this ultimate meaning, they say, and you make these horribly indulgent feelings and attachments the goal, which is sinful, weak… The person that is your husband/wife is interchangeable with anyone else, as long as they are also catholic and want children.

even more depressing - sexuality is a result of the fall, a neccesary evil for having children…

 

[MikeinSD]

“Control? What on earth are you talking about? I am not in the habit of breaking nto people’s houses and stealing their contraceptives! Telling someone they shouldn’t do something is not control, it’s advice, a warning; and I do consider it “my role”, when I see someone placing themselves in what I am quite certain is grave danger, to warn them - in fact, I consider it an obligation. If they disagree, then they will no doubt ignore me, and most likely consider me an idiotic prude as well (not that it bothers me much). At least I will have fulfilled my responsibility.”

Why shouldn’t you tell yr friends, neighbors, and especially yr married children that to use contraceptives is a moral sin? And if you are in their homes, what’s wrong with a quick search of medicine cabinets and bedroom drawers to grab the contraceptives? Wouldn’t you destroy child porn if you found it? Both are mortal sins and it’s not yr place to decide which is more evil.

I posted earlier a relative did exactly that and he paid for his beliefs. I don’t agree with him but I respect that he did what his faith told him. If Christians are so weak that they cannot confront friends, neighbors, and especially family members wallowing in the sin of birth control, what good are they to their faith? No person has the right to should use artificial birth control. Regardless if their particular denom or faith says otherwise. A sin is a sin. Grabbing a neighbor’s condoms or flushing a married daughter’s birth control pills is a duty. Being outnumbered, shouted down, or frozen out of family relations is really no excuse for being a coward.

 

[MikeinSD]

Yes, I’m being sarcastic but if you believe that birth control, esp birth control pills, are equal to abortion, why don’t you live yr faith? Especially with yr family. And friends. And neighbors. I think their response should not concern a devout man or woman. Faith is not supposed to be easy.

 

[Hitetlen]

BlindSheep:

Control? What on earth are you talking about? I am not in the habit of breaking nto people’s houses and stealing their contraceptives! Telling someone they shouldn’t do something is not control, it’s advice, a warning; and I do consider it “my role”, when I see someone placing themselves in what I am quite certain is grave danger, to warn them - in fact, I consider it an obligation. If they disagree, then they will no doubt ignore me, and most likely consider me an idiotic prude as well (not that it bothers me much). At least I will have fulfilled my responsibility.

And wash your hands like Pilate? (Sorry, I just could not resist, I do not think this seriously). But here is a more serious remark: you may think that you do them a favor, but it looks quite different from the “outside”. It looks like a deadly threat to make them conform with your view of morality.

BlindSheep:

Do you honestly think that I would agree with your assessment of contraception as “beneficial”? It doesn’t? I cannot agree. At the very least it hurts the people who use it.

Of course it is beneficial: it allows people who do not want to procreate at a certain period of their life to enjoy the pleasures of sex freely.

If “some old people…want you to conform to their wishes” was the only reason, I agree it would be a weak one; but that isn’t the reason at all, and with all the time you’ve spent here you ought to know that.

But that is how I view the Bible and the Church: a bunch of power-hungry people who want to control everyone. I do not accuse all of them of consciously doing it, but that is what they do. Maybe they want only the best for everyone: but in that case they assume a role they are not entitled to: telling everyone what is the best for them.

 

[Hitetlen]

luvmykids:

Originally Posted by Hitetlen

*One may improve on the process, eliminating the unwanted consequences, but keeping the beneficial ones - and this is the process we humans have been pursuing for millenia now: it is called progress.*Not always, sometimes it’s called asking for trouble.

Of course sometimes it can have unwanted consequences, but that is not a good reason not to try and improve.

luvmykids:

Where do you get this information from? This must be one of those imaginary consequences you were talking about. In fact I think I’ve heard this before from a couple of 16 year old boys.

And they were right, too. This is not an ad hominem attack, but even the members of the clergy sometimes succumb to the temptation, and they are very dedicated people, who firmly believe that extramarital sex is wrong.

luvmykids:

Not true, it’s a risk for everyone, try reading the insert that comes with it. It’s not futile when you are talking about the health of someone you love. If risking the health of this person is worth the sexual gratification to you then I rest my case.

This is why people should seek doctor’s advice, and make informed decisions for themselves. And all decisions should be made on weighing the pros and cons, and then assessing if the possible harmful side-effects are worth the advantages gained. But these decisions cannot be done by others (even with the best intentions) only by the people affected by it. And don’t kid yourself: the possible harmful effects of contraception are miniscule and very very rare.

luvmykids:

Yes it is. It’s also a gift from God, not to be taken for granted, and so are our bodies.

I thought we are concentrating on the physical side of the problem, and leave the other side alone.

luvmykids:

Do you see how casual and meaningless sex seems to be to most people in our society? You do have the right to make your own decisions, I never said you didn’t. If you feel that it is the right thing, and deep down inside you feel you are doing nothing wrong and it’s not a sin, then why do you care what the Catholic Church says?

No, I don’t see it, I let people make those decisions for themselves.

 

[Hitetlen]

luvmykids:

Ok, now you are comparing a coat with your spouse. No comparison. If you think there is, then I can see where you are coming from with your ideas about contraception and love, and there is no point then in arguing if that’s how you really feel.

Since you expressly pointed this post out to me, I have to answer. No, he did not compare the coat to the spouse: he compared the coat to the contraceptive. It was a very good comparision, too. When having an inclement weather, one may stay at home waiting for the sunshine or use protection against the elements and go outside.

 

[luvmykids]

Hitetlen:

Of course sometimes it can have unwanted consequences, but that is not a good reason not to try and improve.

You are not improving anything.

Hitetlen:

And they were right, too. This is not an ad hominem attack, but even the members of the clergy sometimes succumb to the temptation, and they are very dedicated people, who firmly believe that extramarital sex is wrong.

They were not right. They are just immature and do not understand that they cannot act on every little desire they have. Plenty lived celibate lives and lived to tell about it.

Hitetlen:

This is why people should seek doctor’s advice, and make informed decisions for themselves. And all decisions should be made on weighing the pros and cons, and then assessing if the possible harmful side-effects are worth the advantages gained. But these decisions cannot be done by others (even with the best intentions) only by the people affected by it. And don’t kid yourself: the possible harmful effects of contraception are miniscule and very very rare.

Even the doctors don’t always tell you everything. I know plenty of people that were told BCP’s have no effect on future fertility, only to be quite surprised after being on them for a while that they cannot get pregnant or keep miscarrying.

Hitetlen:

I thought we are concentrating on the physical side of the problem, and leave the other side alone.

Having respect for your body is concentrating on the physical.

Hitetlen:

No, I don’t see it, I let people make those decisions for themselves.

So do I.

 

[luvmykids]

Hitetlen:

Since you expressly pointed this post out to me, I have to answer. No, he did not compare the coat to the spouse: he compared the coat to the contraceptive. It was a very good comparision, too. When having an inclement weather, one may stay at home waiting for the sunshine or use protection against the elements and go outside.

OK. you are right, he compared the spouse to the inclement weather. Does he love the inclement weather? Is he trying to unite himself to it? Become one with it? If he was I think he would have walked outside without his coat, don’t you?

 

[Hitetlen]

luvmykids:

OK. you are right, he compared the spouse to the inclement weather. Does he love the inclement weather? Is he trying to unite himself to it? Become one with it? If he was I think he would have walked outside without his coat, don’t you?

Not exactly that either: he compared the spouse’s fertile condition to the rain. He may very well love the rain, but does not wish to be soaked (to avoid getting pneumonia for example), so going out he uses protection against that particular side of the weather. Maybe at other time he would venture out in scant clothing (or naked) to enjoy the raindrops to their fullest. Both have their way under the sun, both attitudes can be good based upon the circumstances.

The same applies to the contraception: the husband and wife love each other, and wish to express their love in a unitive way, but wish to avoid pregnancy at that particular moment. Maybe their financial situation is not good to give a proper upbringing to a new child and they are responsible not to expose the child to unnecessary hardships. Maybe the physical condition of the wife does not allow to have a safe pregnancy at that time, so they do not wish to risk her health (and maybe life).

 

[luvmykids]

Hitetlen:

Not exactly that either: he compared the spouse’s fertile condition to the rain. He may very well love the rain, but does not wish to be soaked (to avoid getting pneumonia for example), so going out he uses protection against that particular side of the weather. Maybe at other time he would venture out in scant clothing (or naked) to enjoy the raindrops to their fullest. Both have their way under the sun, both attitudes can be good based upon the circumstances.

The same applies to the contraception: the husband and wife love each other, and wish to express their love in a unitive way, but wish to avoid pregnancy at that particular moment. Maybe their financial situation is not good to give a proper upbringing to a new child and they are responsible not to expose the child to unnecessary hardships. Maybe the physical condition of the wife does not allow to have a safe pregnancy at that time, so they do not wish to risk her health (and maybe life).

No matter what way you put, this analogy is quite a stretch, and in my opinion, no comparison. You cannot compare the consequence of getting pregnant to pneumonia. Pregnancy is not an illness. For those of us who value life, do not see it that way and feel that creating a new life with the man or woman that we love as a gift and something that is a privilege. Not everyone has that privilege and would do just about anything for it.

By the way, if you don’t want to risk the health of the one you love, I suggest not using contraception, because I know PLENTY of people who have gotten pregnant on any number of combinations of ABC. I think if it were a matter of life or death that your spouse’s life should come before the need for sexual gratification.