Contraception - Ladies - Men

[anns82]

Because they believe that their god told them so?

A more accurate reason would be that God, through creation, invented mankind and meaning within his actions. The idea of “God told them so” is actually “God revealed the meaning of the action.” If the instruction manual for your car tells you to put gas in the gas tank, you don’t do it simply because you were told to do so, it is because that is how it is made to work. Just how God is the one who established the meaning of marriage in the beginning, he also established the meaning of sex within marriage in the beginning. God revealed the reason for such things, the full self-sacrifice which is inherent in the action. Contraception denies the fullness of that sacrifice, which is why it does not live up to the true meaning of the act.

For those who are not too concerned about the side effects women have with the pill, but are against abortion, does the that “99.9% success” stat, which is due to it’s work as an abortifacient cause a moral dilemma? Women were having major side effects when the pill first came out, so they adjusted the hormonal balance which resulted in breakthrough eggs happened more often and conception occuring, the hormones make the womb unable to accept the embryo and the new life is flushed out of the woman’s body.

Essentially, I am wondering if people realize that, and if they are okay with chemical “contraception,” they also have to be okay with abortions, because that is part of how the pill works. Many women are okay with living with the side effects of the pill, but for a newly conceived child, it effects are fatal. But they tend not to teach that in high school or planned parenthood.

 

[larkin31]

A more accurate reason would be that God, through creation, invented mankind and meaning within his actions. The idea of “God told them so” is actually “God revealed the meaning of the action.” If the instruction manual for your car tells you to put gas in the gas tank, you don’t do it simply because you were told to do so, it is because that is how it is made to work. Just how God is the one who established the meaning of marriage in the beginning, he also established the meaning of sex within marriage in the beginning. God revealed the reason for such things, the full self-sacrifice which is inherent in the action. Contraception denies the fullness of that sacrifice, which is why it does not live up to the true meaning of the act.

For those who are not too concerned about the side effects women have with the pill, but are against abortion, does the that “99.9% success” stat, which is due to it’s work as an abortifacient cause a moral dilemma? Women were having major side effects when the pill first came out, so they adjusted the hormonal balance which resulted in breakthrough eggs happened more often and conception occuring, the hormones make the womb unable to accept the embryo and the new life is flushed out of the woman’s body.

Essentially, I am wondering if people realize that, and if they are okay with chemical “contraception,” they also have to be okay with abortions, because that is part of how the pill works. Many women are okay with living with the side effects of the pill, but for a newly conceived child, it effects are fatal. But they tend not to teach that in high school or planned parenthood.

Just so you know, NFP results in natural “abortions”–some loss of fertilized eggs. It is inevitable, although rare. Being “open” to conception means, ironically, also being open to some losses of fertilized eggs, ie “human beings” by the strictest of definitions.

 

[eucharisteo]

Huh?

There is only one human species. It is increasing very rapidly and the planet is filling. These other concerns about race and religion are xenophobic. The slowing of population growth in some countries is a good thing all around and is a positive result of the country’s rising standard of living. I, for one, am grateful for it. Moreover, there is nothing wrong even with a country’s population going through some reduction (and I don’t mean through calamity or disease).

The only zenophobic message here has nothing to do with the way you are applying it. My fear is that the remaining human population will be filled with women subdued in burkas. I am a geographer and am not phobic about others in other countries. I just know cultures far better than you apparently. Studying philosophy, theology, geography, history, etc. has given me a unique view of the world. You are living in lala land, a geographic place for…well let’s just say the less fortunate.

edited to add: I’m sorry if I come across so strong but every word you say that justifies poor behavior amond our teens, young adults and inevitably against mankind. This may be the catalyst for an apocalypse of some sort. It’s a shame that so many people want to prevent children from living so much that they will just about do and say anything to convince us that it is okay.

 

[larkin31]

The only zenophobic message here has nothing to do with the way you are applying it. My fear is that the remaining human population will be filled with women subdued in burkas. I am a geographer and am not phobic about others in other countries. I just know cultures far better than you apparently. Studying philosophy, theology, geography, history, etc. has given me a unique view of the world. You are living in lala land, a geographic place for…well let’s just say the less fortunate.

edited to add: I’m sorry if I come across so strong but every word you say that justifies poor behavior amond our teens, young adults and inevitably against mankind. This may be the catalyst for an apocalypse of some sort. It’s a shame that so many people want to prevent children from living so much that they will just about do and say anything to convince us that it is okay.

yikes

your apologetic retraction basically blames me for the end of the world

your view of the world is not unique, by the way. I encounter it often on the internet.

 

[eucharisteo]

yikes

your apologetic retraction basically blames me for the end of the world

your view of the world is not unique, by the way. I encounter it often on the internet.

Your view of the world is not unique either. I encounter it everywhere there is genocide in the name of peace and justice. Sarcasm. I also utilize another English term called Hyperbole. You might want to brush up on it and also do some research on my profile not to mention my past several years of posts before you make fast judgments about me. I have a unique perspective, as you seem to represent the same ole same ole worldly view rooted in, well let’s just say justification. At least you realize that you can’t prove God doesn’t exist and don’t ride the shirt tail of the atheistic view of the world, another fundamentalist church rooted in denial, another term for lies.

I am picking on you in fun. No offense really intended.

 

[anns82]

Just so you know, NFP results in natural “abortions”–some loss of fertilized eggs. It is inevitable, although rare. Being “open” to conception means, ironically, also being open to some losses of fertilized eggs, ie “human beings” by the strictest of definitions.

A miscarriage is not the same as an abortion. Taking a pill, where part of the way it actually is made to work is through an abortion is completely different from a miscarriage. Every life has a death. The point is that person is not to take actions which take the life on an innocent person.

 

[larkin31]

A miscarriage is not the same as an abortion. Taking a pill, where part of the way it actually is made to work is through an abortion is completely different from a miscarriage. Every life has a death. The point is that person is not to take actions which take the life on an innocent person.

Well, parents rely, somewhat, on the natural miscarriages that come with NFP. They are not even aware that they may be fertilizing an embryo. But the failure to have a pregnancy is intentional through NFP. They just aren’t asking questions about how exactly that might be occurring.

I am not* equating *this to abortion, by the way. I am just pointing out the grey areas for full knowledge of the issue.

 

[eucharisteo]

Well, parents rely, somewhat, on the natural miscarriages that come with NFP. They are not even aware that they may be fertilizing an embryo. But the failure to have a pregnancy is intentional through NFP. They just aren’t asking questions about how exactly that might be occurring.

I am not* equating *this to abortion, by the way. I am just pointing out the grey areas for full knowledge of the issue.

I personally don’t tote the party line on this subject. NFP is good for the woman’s health I am told. It that is true then that is a good thing. However, the pill is known to harm women and partly why I do not like it. Now using NFP like a pill is unacceptable to me and I do believe the Church leaders would agree with me on this based on things I have heard from clergy. With some people you give them an inch and thy take a mile. Abuse is everywhere and in everything. Even receiving the Lord in the Holy Eucharist can be sinful if done in the wrong way for the wrong reasons and how you want to do so. In fact, it would be even a more deadly sin because it is the Lord.

 

[anns82]

Well, parents rely, somewhat, on the natural miscarriages that come with NFP. They are not even aware that they may be fertilizing an embryo. But the failure to have a pregnancy is intentional through NFP. They just aren’t asking questions about how exactly that might be occurring.

I am not* equating *this to abortion, by the way. I am just pointing out the grey areas for full knowledge of the issue.

NFP works with the body’s natural processes. It does not involve changing your hormones or your body in order to have an “unnatural” miscarriage. The whole “natural” vs “unnatural” thing is a big difference. Through identifying the fertile times for the wife, they identify when conception is likely to occur. A person using NFP realizes that if conception takes place, they are welcoming to the pregnancy. Nowhere is there the intent to have a “natural” miscarriage. The body functions the way it was made to function. Your “gray area” is false.

 

[larkin31]

NFP works with the body’s natural processes. It does not involve changing your hormones or your body in order to have an “unnatural” miscarriage. The whole “natural” vs “unnatural” thing is a big difference. Through identifying the fertile times for the wife, they identify when conception is likely to occur. A person using NFP realizes that if conception takes place, they are welcoming to the pregnancy. Nowhere is there the intent to have a “natural” miscarriage. The body functions the way it was made to function. Your “gray area” is false.

Well, the “natural process” of the uterus sloughing off a zygote formed late in the fertile period of the menstrual cycle is a mighty convenient “natural occurrence” when one is hoping to avoid pregnancy at the time. How many women would like to know if a “natural miscarriage” occurred, terminating a an individual life that had technically begun? Would your conscience be ok? Would you continue to have sex in the same manner?

 

[anns82]

I personally don’t tote the party line on this subject. NFP is good for the woman’s health I am told. It that is true then that is a good thing. However, the pill is known to harm women and partly why I do not like it. Now using NFP like a pill is unacceptable to me and I do believe the Church leaders would agree with me on this based on things I have heard from clergy. With some people you give them an inch and thy take a mile. Abuse is everywhere and in everything. Even receiving the Lord in the Holy Eucharist can be sinful if done in the wrong way for the wrong reasons and how you want to do so. In fact, it would be even a more deadly sin because it is the Lord.

I agree with your take - it is possible to abuse NFP in a sense of wanting to not have kids for monetary or other selfish reasons. I think the Church is very wise in recognizing the importance of children in teaching us to forget our own wants and learning what it is to have the fullness of unconditional love for another. Each situation needs to be addressed individually, but with the intent of finding what the right and wrong is in the situation, and not simply being about the desires of the parents to “control” their lifestyles.

 

[anns82]

Well, the “natural process” of the uterus sloughing off a zygote formed late in the fertile period of the menstrual cycle is a mighty convenient “natural occurrence” when one is hoping to avoid pregnancy at the time. How many women would like to know if a “natural miscarriage” occurred, terminating a an individual life that had technically begun? Would your conscience be ok? Would you continue to have sex in the same manner?

What happens naturally within the body is in God’s hands. We only use the system that God gave us, knowing that for all science may know, it can not tell the future and we can not know everything. A miscarriage is not guaranteed. You are not praying for a miscarriage. You said you were not equating it to an abortion, yet that is how you are presenting it.

 

[larkin31]

What happens naturally within the body is in God’s hands. We only use the system that God gave us, knowing that for all science may know, it can not tell the future and we can not know everything. A miscarriage is not guaranteed. You are not praying for a miscarriage. You said you were not equating it to an abortion, yet that is how you are presenting it.

I am NOT equating it. I am trying to get you to acknowledge the “unmentioned” convenience of natural miscarriages from the NFP method.

To then say only, “It’s in God’s hands” is quite a toss off. Do you believe that God determines which eggs fertilize and which don’t?

 

[anns82]

I am NOT equating it. I am trying to get you to acknowledge the “unmentioned” convenience of natural miscarriages from the NFP method.

To then say only, “It’s in God’s hands” is quite a toss off. Do you believe that God determines which eggs fertilize and which don’t?

If a person is avoiding pregnancy, then they avoid the fertile time - even the late fertile time.

God did not give us any reason to believe there were times when we should not have sex within marriage. Yes, I do believe God has a hand in sending life into the world.

It is not at all like the pill in that natural sex does not aim to kill any conceived child. Those using NFP do not aim to kill any conceived child.

You may say you are not equating it, but you are acting as though I should equate it.

 

[benidict]

The situation is far more complicated than having 10 billion people pick shrubbery off the forest floor and build themselves a shelter, or boil water…

I’m not going debate this any further, as there is nothing I can say or produce that will sway you from your ’ the Lord will provide ’ mind set.

your right, no point in debating. as there is no way i can talk you out of the myth of over population that you hold. this is a typical viewpoint in socialist countries anyhow. Peace

 

[eucharisteo]

I agree with your take - it is possible to abuse NFP in a sense of wanting to not have kids for monetary or other selfish reasons. I think the Church is very wise in recognizing the importance of children in teaching us to forget our own wants and learning what it is to have the fullness of unconditional love for another. Each situation needs to be addressed individually, but with the intent of finding what the right and wrong is in the situation, and not simply being about the desires of the parents to “control” their lifestyles.

An interesting take on this I have been observing this phenomena for a long time now. Now that we can “control” births, they seem to push us not to have children now. In fact, god forbid you have a child in daycare. If they find out this in the interview you are most certainly not going to get the job. They can’t afford to give you time off, coming form someone that has had to file for FMLA twice over the past 7 years. I worked for government and left a very cush job because my boss told me after I asked to make up time on a Saturday because of missing work over sick children that with issues like mine “that’s a good argument against people having children”.

This boss was married without children and ironically seemed to really hate people in general by the way he constantly bad mouthed everyone. Everything was all about him. He seemed to hate children like some of the jerks I remember growing up. I believe this attitude is going to explode in his face one day. But how many people are getting hurt because employers really don’t want their employees to have children. You see having children is no longer a right but a privilege to people now, like buying a car. The wold is full of these jerks that expect us to abort children and contracept in spite of the health problems. These are the same guys that marry, cheat on their wives, divorce and move on to the next…I’ll stop there. Now we have women that want to mimic these jerks and do a much better job at it that the guys. What a goal to have in life. I see it all the time.

Fortunately, there are decent men and women in the world that reject the cheating but fail to realize the contraceptive mentality is killing us in more than just not having children. It’s killing Western civilization.

 

[anns82]

An interesting take on this I have been observing this phenomena for a long time now. Now that we can “control” births, they seem to push us not to have children now. In fact, god forbid you have a child in daycare. If they find out this in the interview you are most certainly not going to get the job. They can’t afford to give you time off, coming form someone that has had to file for FMLA twice over the past 7 years. I worked for government and left a very cush job because my boss told me after I asked to make up time on a Saturday because of missing work over sick children that with issues like mine “that’s a good argument against people having children”.

This boss was married without children and ironically seemed to really hate people in general by the way he constantly bad mouthed everyone. Everything was all about him. He seemed to hate children like some of the jerks I remember growing up. I believe this attitude is going to explode in his face one day. But how many people are getting hurt because employers really don’t want their employees to have children. You see having children is no longer a right but a privilege to people now, like buying a car. The wold is full of these jerks that expect us to abort children and contracept in spite of the health problems. These are the same guys that marry, cheat on their wives, divorce and move on to the next…I’ll stop there. Now we have women that want to mimic these jerks and do a much better job at it that the guys. What a goal to have in life. I see it all the time.

Fortunately, there are decent men and women in the world that reject the cheating but fail to realize the contraceptive mentality is killing us in more than just not having children. It’s killing Western civilization.

What you are saying is interesting too because people want to have it both ways. I heard someone call into a talk show complaining that she went into business with her friend, and now the friend realized that she and her husband are going to try to have a baby. The caller was actually upset because the friend was not willing to mold her life around their business!

People think they have the right to have the child they want, when they want it. They can put off pregnancy for however long, then when they decide to have children (often difficult after years of hormonal manipulation), they go for artificial insemination, which often involves aborting the multiple children that are conceived. Parents are told that their child has a ___% of having a disability in some way and they are expected to have an abortion. It is as if people simply base their decisions on stats rather than if it is right or wrong. As if they can use science to make themselves god.

It is very easy to fall into a rant on this topic. Just the turn in our culture in seeing new life as a drain on society rather than a source of love is disturbing. I was reading a book on Buddhist advice for teens and it described an unplanned pregnancy as a tragedy. It’s a shame.

 

[larkin31]

If a person is avoiding pregnancy, then they avoid the fertile time - even the late fertile time.

God did not give us any reason to believe there were times when we should not have sex within marriage. Yes, I do believe God has a hand in sending life into the world.

It is not at all like the pill in that natural sex does not aim to kill any conceived child. Those using NFP do not aim to kill any conceived child.

You may say you are not equating it, but you are acting as though I should equate it.

All I am saying is that in either case a fertilized complete “individual” is lost. The lack of pregnancy is intended; the result is welcome.

And not all couples can precisely predict the actual time of ovulation. And as we know, the only foolproof (we are all fools) method of avoiding pregnancy is total abstinence. But God is opposed to that in a marriage, apparently.

 

[anns82]

All I am saying is that in either case a fertilized complete “individual” is lost. The lack of pregnancy is intended; the result is welcome.

The aim with using NFP to avoid pregnancy is to avoid conception. No, you do not know exactly when ovulation occurs, but you have a pretty good guesstimate based on the rise in the body’s temperature, changes in the cervix, and viscosity of the mucus, all of which are triggered by the natural change in hormones. Nowhere is the intent to miscarry. Nowhere is the intent to flush a conceived child from the body, as is the actual job of the chemical contraception.

Again, you are acting as though I should be equating the natural process of the body to a chemical abortion.

And not all couples can precisely predict the actual time of ovulation. And as we know, the only foolproof (we are all fools) method of avoiding pregnancy is total abstinence. But God is opposed to that in a marriage, apparently.

True, the only way to ensure a pregnancy does not occur is through abstinence, which is allowed in particular cases. God did not say “Thou shalt have sex with your spouse every night.” I do not doubt that God would prefer a couple to abstain than to kill a child. These things are handled individually because of the significance of the issue.

When someone recognizes the sacred nature of the sexual act - because it is both the beginning of life and the physical expression of self-giving love - to change one aspect of that is to remove the sacred nature - and that is redefining the act itself. God intended us to take part in the Eucharist, but if we are not properly prepared to receive then it is better not to take part. That is respecting the sacred nature.

 

[larkin31]

The aim with using NFP to avoid pregnancy is to avoid conception. No, you do not know exactly when ovulation occurs, but you have a pretty good guesstimate based on the rise in the body’s temperature, changes in the cervix, and viscosity of the mucus, all of which are triggered by the natural change in hormones. Nowhere is the intent to miscarry. Nowhere is the intent to flush a conceived child from the body, as is the actual job of the chemical contraception.

Again, you are acting as though I should be equating the natural process of the body to a chemical abortion.

True, the only way to ensure a pregnancy does not occur is through abstinence, which is allowed in particular cases. God did not say “Thou shalt have sex with your spouse every night.” I do not doubt that God would prefer a couple to abstain than to kill a child. These things are handled individually because of the significance of the issue.

When someone recognizes the sacred nature of the sexual act - because it is both the beginning of life and the physical expression of self-giving love - to change one aspect of that is to remove the sacred nature - and that is redefining the act itself. God intended us to take part in the Eucharist, but if we are not properly prepared to receive then it is better not to take part. That is respecting the sacred nature.

Sex in the Bible is not sacred. I wonder where you get that idea.