Contraception or Abortion?

[mr_bamber]

Ok we all know the typical liberal Catholic line of argumentation: youtube.com/watch?v=usTWwSbpWRc

**
If someone who doesn’t believe in the position of no sex-before marriage and they are going to have sex anyway, wouldn’t you rather they used contraception then have an abortion?**

**Would it be wrong to say:

Yes I believe contraception is always wrong, however if they are going to have sex and therefore someone is going to be murdered it is better even if I don’t approve of it that they use contraception.**

If this response is wrong how should I respond?

 

[Drawmack]

I would tell them it is not for me to judge which is worse among sins. Contraception is a sin; abortion is a sin; neither is even an issue until one engages in reckless sexual intercourse which is also a sin; therefore, prevent the initial sin and all subsequent sins become moot.

 

[JRKH]

I would tell them it is not for me to judge which is worse among sins. Contraception is a sin; abortion is a sin; neither is even an issue until one engages in reckless sexual intercourse which is also a sin; therefore, prevent the initial sin and all subsequent sins become moot.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Ok we all know the typical liberal Catholic line of argumentation: youtube.com/watch?v=usTWwSbpWRc

If someone who doesn’t believe in the position of no sex-before marriage and they are going to have sex anyway, wouldn’t you rather they used contraception then have an abortion?

**Would it be wrong to say: **

Yes I believe contraception is always wrong, however if they are going to have sex and therefore someone is going to be murdered it is better even if I don’t approve of it that they use contraception.

If this response is wrong how should I respond?

The two in this sense are not related, except that some contraception can cause an abortion.

Contraception offends against God’s creative power specifically for use in Marriage. It distorts one of the two purposes of sexual intercourse established by God.

Abortion is simply the murder of an innocent human being for one’s own interests.

Human beings do not have to have sex. Unlike animals they have the ability to reason and develop self-control.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Ok we all know the typical liberal Catholic line of argumentation: youtube.com/watch?v=usTWwSbpWRc

**
If someone who doesn’t believe in the position of no sex-before marriage and they are going to have sex anyway, wouldn’t you rather they used contraception then have an abortion?**

**Would it be wrong to say:

Yes I believe contraception is always wrong, however if they are going to have sex and therefore someone is going to be murdered it is better even if I don’t approve of it that they use contraception.**

If this response is wrong how should I respond?

That’s like saying, I know it’s wrong to murder, but wouldn’t it be better to murder one person at a time instead of two?

All three acts are serious matter with regard to the requirements for a sin to be a mortal sin. Fornication (sex before marriage), contraception, and abortion. It only takes one unrepented mortal sin to end up in hell for all eternity. It does’t matter which particular mortal sin it is.

With regard to someone “not believing” that it’s wrong to have sex before marriage, it sounds like a very fine job of rationalizing so they can do what they want, regardless of what God says.

 

[LindaSK]

The two in this sense are not related, except that some contraception can cause an abortion.

Contraception offends against God’s creative power specifically for use in Marriage. It distorts one of the two purposes of sexual intercourse established by God.

Abortion is simply the murder of an innocent human being for one’s own interests.

Human beings do not have to have sex. Unlike animals they have the ability to reason and develop self-control.

A good distinction.

“Human beings do not have to have sex. Unlike animals they have the ability to reason and develop self-control.” Very well said, and so true, yet the secular media does all it can to convince us otherwise. Too many have bought into the lie. Sadly, sex has become a mega-dollar industry, a recreational activity, rather than a sacred act reserved for Marriage as God ordained it.

To answer the OP, I would make it clear that neither contraception, nor pre-marital sex are acceptable. It is not either - or. I would pray that they have a change of heart.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A good distinction.

“Human beings do not have to have sex. Unlike animals they have the ability to reason and develop self-control.” Very well said, and so true, yet the secular media does all it can to convince us otherwise. Too many have bought into the lie. Sadly, sex has become a mega-dollar industry, a recreational activity, rather than a sacred act reserved for Marriage as God ordained it.

To answer the OP, I would make it clear that neither contraception, nor pre-marital sex are acceptable. It is not either - or. I would pray that they have a change of heart.

Another idea the secular media puts forth is that contraception is the fool proof way to avoid having to make the decision to kill your child. It’s not a fool proof way, it fails a lot of the time it is used, and does not protect necessarly against the transmission and effects of STD’s.

It makes much more sense to wait until you are in a solid, life long, committment in Marriage. Where you can be certain through medical tests that neither of you have any STD’s and where you can welcome a child if God presents you with one.

 

[lutherlic]

I would explain that both “options” are grave sins, but abortion is the more serious.

However, this is like being asked is a string of armed bank robberies better or worse than murder. The correct answer, not offered as an option, is “none of the above.” If the person asking can not accept that then they are obviously a non-repentant sinner.

 

[Atemi]

Ok we all know the typical liberal Catholic line of argumentation: youtube.com/watch?v=usTWwSbpWRc

**
If someone who doesn’t believe in the position of no sex-before marriage and they are going to have sex anyway, wouldn’t you rather they used contraception then have an abortion?**

**Would it be wrong to say:

Yes I believe contraception is always wrong, however if they are going to have sex and therefore someone is going to be murdered it is better even if I don’t approve of it that they use contraception.**

If this response is wrong how should I respond?

I am no longer a Catholic, but here is my understanding if it may help.

I would totally focus on the sanctity of marriage and on the sanctity of life, NOT on any Catholic claims about contraception.

You should make clear that it is a lie that people cannot help to have sex anyway before marriage. This is proven time and time again. People are not robots or animals. Those that choose to keep sex within its correct context do not suffer and die for doing so. This is all secular mythology and should be dealt with first.

Secondly, no matter their previous sin, no one has to go and murder another human being on top of that. One may choose to sin, but then choose not to sin afterwards. Abortion does not necessarily follow from extra-marital sex. Again, this is proven again and again.

I would avoid all Catholic claims about contraception. If those you are speaking to understand the facts regarding this, you will lose them.

If those you are speaking to know that 90% of Catholics in this country support the use of contraceptives and that NFP is one of the most effective methods of contraception around, they will see your case as having no credibility whatsoever.

…

 

[Church_Militant]

…

I would avoid all Catholic claims about contraception. If those you are speaking to understand the facts regarding this, you will lose them.

If those you are speaking to know that 90% of Catholics

in this country support the use of contraceptives and that NFP is one of the most effective methods of contraception around, they will see your case as having no credibility whatsoever.Like Disraeli said, there are 3 kinds of lies. Lies…Damned lies…and statistics.

Let’s do a quick survey here. Did the Harris guys talk to any of us? They didn’t contact me.

Did they contact all Catholics? Obviously not.

So then Atemi’s stats are biased in that he said that “90% of Catholics in this country support the use of contraceptives” yet they survey spoke to far less than all the U.S. Catholics, so that is inaccurate.

Get your guidance from the church, not from individuals with an a-C agenda using stats that are deceiving at best. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/peanuts.gif

 

[Atemi]

I totally understand that the truth is very hard to bare for some.

Of course, insisting that studies are bigoted and “deceiving” and out to get you might make things easier.

This is sadly the state of mind for many people today.

I choose to accept how things are, not as I really, really wish them to be.

Peace be with you.

Like Disraeli said, there are 3 kinds of lies. Lies…Damned lies…and statistics.

Let’s do a quick survey here. Did the Harris guys talk to any of us? They didn’t contact me.

Did they contact all Catholics? Obviously not.

So then Atemi’s stats are biased in that he said that “90% of Catholics in this country support the use of contraceptives” yet they survey spoke to far less than all the U.S. Catholics, so that is inaccurate.

Get your guidance from the church, not from individuals with an a-C agenda using stats that are deceiving at best. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/peanuts.gif

 

[Church_Militant]

I totally understand that the truth is very hard to -]bare/-] (bear) for some.

Again I point out that your stats are not verifiably and definitely true…though I’m sure you wish they were.

Of course, insisting that studies are bigoted and “deceiving” and out to get you might make things easier.

Never said bigoted or out to get us. Kindly don’t misrepresent me.

This is sadly the state of mind for many people today.

Yeah, I know. Like those who pursue agendas to defame the Catholic faith with stats that misrepresent us.

I choose to accept how things are, not as I really, really wish them to be.

I sure can’t tell Atemi…but then I don’t cut you any slack, do I.

 

[JustaServant]

Like Disraeli said, there are 3 kinds of lies. Lies…Damned lies…and statistics.

Let’s do a quick survey here. Did the Harris guys talk to any of us? They didn’t contact me.

Did they contact all Catholics? Obviously not.

So then Atemi’s stats are biased in that he said that “90% of Catholics in this country support the use of contraceptives” yet they survey spoke to far less than all the U.S. Catholics, so that is inaccurate.

Get your guidance from the church, not from individuals with an a-C agenda using stats that are deceiving at best. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/peanuts.gif

Where do I find the stats for Protestants? Oh wait…

 

[Atemi]

Where do I find the stats for Protestants?

The study linked to provides all that information.

It seems 90% of Catholics support contraception, while only 88% of Christians like evangelicals do.

This is relevant to a lot of mythology floating around today.

Many people do not realize that Catholics support contraception even more than many Protestants, especially evangelicals…and that is after the many threats of “mortal sin.”

…

 

[Mickey]

Again I point out that your stats are not verifiably and definitely true…though I’m sure you wish they were.

With all due respect, my friend, it is clear that the numbers are very high for all segments of the population—even for abortifacient methods such as the pill.

And there are even surprising numbers regarding those who support abortion. It is a sad reality.

 

[Jermosh]

ABCs is only an intrinsic evil in the manner of marriage. Also, contraceptives are not always used as such, condoms are also used as a personal protection device. Its the action in how they are used or what they promote that can make them sinful. But there are many moralists, preists and bishops who have stated the morality of using contraceptives and PPD in certain conditions outside of marriage and even in it in the case of PPD. These are rare cases of course, but it puts proof to the claim that they are not an intrinsic evil outside of marriage. So useing a condom while sex outside of marriage is not an additional grave act, the grave act is having the sex in the 1st place. I would state that have unprotected sex with anyone other then your spouse would be an additional sin IMHO.

 

[davidv]

ABCs is only an intrinsic evil in the manner of marriage. Also, contraceptives are not always used as such, condoms are also used as a personal protection device. Its the action in how they are used or what they promote that can make them sinful. But there are many moralists, preists and bishops who have stated the morality of using contraceptives and PPD in certain conditions outside of marriage and even in it in the case of PPD. These are rare cases of course, but it puts proof to the claim that they are not an intrinsic evil outside of marriage. So useing a condom while sex outside of marriage is not an additional grave act, the grave act is having the sex in the 1st place. I would state that have unprotected sex with anyone other then your spouse would be an additional sin IMHO.

The chemicals used in ABC may be ligitimately used for other purposes. Artifical birth control, no matter the method, is always and everywhere intrinsicly disordered. If a single person choses ABC so they can be avoid pregnacy, ABC is still a sin. And IMO, adds insult (ABC) to injury (fornication) from Gods perspective.

 

[lutherlic]

With all due respect, my friend, it is clear that the numbers are very high for all segments of the population—even for abortifacient methods such as the pill.

And there are even surprising numbers regarding those who support abortion. It is a sad reality.

I looked at the survey and there is insufficient information presented to validate the methodology. Disclaimer: I am not a statistician.

“N” (the number sampled) for Catholics is only 403. The distribution of those sampled (male/female, geographic area, age, etc.) is not specified. The actual survey itself is not shown so we do not know if the questions were leading. How the researchers scored the questions is unknown. Were the questions verbal or written? How exactly was the “nationwide cross section” selected? How do the self-identified Catholics who answered the questions correlate to those who attend Mass (ever, 2 or 3 times per year, every week)? Was the study validated by a credible, independent 3rd party? Why is the topic listed as “Abortion rights (which were not defined)” - how exactly would respondents base an answer with regard to the words in parenthesis? What is the background of those involved in designing and conducting the survey and what are their credentials?

Folks, IF (and this is a mega-humongous IF) this were a properly conducted and verified scientific survey with explicit findings (e.g. “abortion in extreme circumstances”, “any abortion”, etc.) THEN it would be believable. From what is presented it falls far short of that.

Survey aside, I am personally sure we need a lot more adult faith formation.

 

[Greg27]

This seems to be a question of which is the greater evil. If you adhere to Catholic ethical teaching, both use of contraceptives and abortion are both intrinsically evil acts. However it seems to me abortion is regarded as more evil than contraceptive use, since the church views every procured abortion as an act of homicide and the person who procures it as well as those who materially co-operate in procuring it (if they are Catholics) are automatically excommunicated. The same does not apply to Catholics (married or unmarried) who use contraception, though in both cases they might be committing grave sin (and also fornication in the case of unmarried Catholics) so would need the usual absolution through confession to return to a state of grace. There is also the principle as well that no one may do evil to achieve a good, real or apparent, so contraceptive use is in theory not justified in Catholic ethics to do a good (such as keep the size of the family within certain limits).

Not invoking Catholic teaching, my own view is that a deliberate abortion, especially in the later stages of pregnancy, if not done for sound medical reasons (i.e. to protect the life and health, mental or physical, or the mother) could certainly be a serious sin, especially if the mother just wants to selfishly escape the obligations of raising a child. The ability to procreate is rightly regarded by Christians as a marvelous gift from the creator, and its fruits should not be thrown away. However I think a blanket ban of abortion in all situations is problematic, whether enforced by criminal law or by canon law (such as the penalty of excommunication for example). Such a hard line in my view is at least questionable, since the personhood of the fetus is a contested issue in most moral circles. As Ronald Dworkin wrote, we may mostly agree life is sacred (i.e. it should be valued in a moral sense) but human societies for various reasons have also admitted exceptions to this principle, i.e. in war or in self-defence. The issue of abortion is too vexed but I don’t think we can simply say abortion is the automatic equivalent to the intentional killing of a sentient and adult human being and the principle it can never be permitted in any circumstance is in my view at least open to question.

As for contraception, I think its use depends on the intention and circumstances. If a married couple use it merely to avoid ever having children, sin might be involved but I think it should be left to the conscience of the couple. In my view the morality of contraceptive use is different from the morality of abortion since contraception (where done artificially or ‘naturally’ by abstinence or having intercourse in infertile periods) is usually aimed at preventing or managing conception, while abortion involves the moral question as to whether it is right or not to terminate the existence of a fetus which at least is potentially a person. We can’t reach into the minds of a couple using contraception and even if we had detailed facts of their situation I hardly think it would be right to try and make a decision about the matter in their place. I think third parties should respect the intimate privacy of couples (married or not) and not enquire or preach about the morality of contraceptive use, and leave the matter to their conscience.

In any case I think it would be unhelpful to single out and condemn such people as ‘sinners’ and it would probably just alienate them from the church. Since no-one is without sin, unless someone is a public and unrepentant sinner of the most serious kind and glories in what they do (i.e. a murderous individual, gangster or tyrant) we should only give moral advice when asked and otherwise do our best to improve ourselves and our faults before going out of way to judge the actions of others, especially in the most intimate and private parts of their lives.