Contraception question...again

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sidbrown said:
I think that the Eastern Orthodox Church allows married couples to use artificial contraception under certain limited conditions, such as when the couple have many children already and their finances are strained. Of course this would have to be worked out with their Ortrhodox priest. But according to Ropman Catholic teaching, they are allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic Church, is it not so, according to the rules posted in the missalette at Mass?
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(even if…there is several different Orthodox Patriarchies) …

Even if – such does not change the fact that it has been condemned from the beginning…

and it is definitive. It is not something the Catholic Church will change.

As for communion…they too will have to examine their conscience for mortal sins…Holy for the Holy! as they say in the East!

(a Catholic of course knows it is a grave matter)
 
No, first the matter has to be grave, with full consent and knowledge. Not all actions contrary to natural law would be grave. However, my understanding is that ABC is a grave matter because it interferes with one of the greatest gifts God gives to mankind, the ability to co-operate in bringing into being of a new human being with an immortal soul. That is essentially an infinite gift, and any obstruction with God’s will in this area is clearly very serious.
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Thank you! This is a lovely reason not to use contraception. I’m still not sure about it being a MORTAL sin - I don’t really agree with that - but this is probably one of the best reasons I have heard so far.

It is a massive topic, with countless volumes written on it, and I have only just scratched the surface. I would recommend Edward Feser’s books for a good introduction to the concept.
With regards to your breastfeeding point, I would agree that not breastfeeding is potentially against the natural law - I believe Pope John Paul II spoke of it’s moral goodness. However, whether not breastfeeding is necessarily a sin is another matter. If formula feeding is undertaken due to sheer laziness, I would probably think it would be sin, though not necessarily a grave one, as the more fundamental natural law of feeding your infant is still met. However, if there are severe problems with the breastfeeding process causing distress to both mother and infant, then there is some deficiency here (either physical or mental/emotional) and therefore alternatives can probably be sought if available and almost equivalent. I don’t believe this is necessarily a sin.
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I agree with this 🙂
Anyway, those are my thoughts, I hope they are of some help. My prayers are with you.
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Thank you for a kind and charitable response. It is much appreciated!
 
Bookcat said:
Not getting into arguing the pros and cons of breast feeding…my son was breast fed.

If we can we will do so again.

If we choose for whatever good reason to do otherwise in the future it is not contrary to natural law 🙂

Contraception is not something “vague” the Church is quite clear on the matter.

But as to someone arriving at the fact that contraception is sinful via recourse to natural law without the benefit of the Church …well as I noted above…not everyone will arrive there…Natural Law things are often obscured by our darkened intellect post-original sin…society blindness…sin in general etc…
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Well, I’m sure you know I disagree on the breastfeeding issue pertaining to Natural Law. I think it is actually a perfect example. 🙂
 
sidbrown said:
I think that the Eastern Orthodox Church allows married couples to use artificial contraception under certain limited conditions, such as when the couple have many children already and their finances are strained. Of course this would have to be worked out with their Ortrhodox priest. But according to Ropman Catholic teaching, they are allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic Church, is it not so, according to the rules posted in the missalette at Mass?
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Then why wouldn’t a Catholic who strongly disagrees with the teaching on contraception switch to Eastern Orthodoxy if they can do so and still be in communion with the Catholic Church?
 
Thoughtfulone said:
Then why wouldn’t a Catholic who strongly disagrees with the teaching on contraception switch to Eastern Orthodoxy if they can do so and still be in communion with the Catholic Church?
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They will not be in full communion with the Catholic Church…

(Also I think there is not agreement on this issue within Orthodoxy Churches in any case…heck even some Protestants have returned to the Christian teaching on this from the beginning…which Protestants embrace until they started to make exceptions in the 20th century…)
 
Also I think there is not agreement on this issue within Orthodoxy Churches in any case…

some hold one thing in this matter…others another…
 
Bookcat said:
Murder is a good example.

One knows from natural law that murder is very baaaaad
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If so, then why has the USA killed so many innocent civilians in the Vietnam war, in the Iraq war and in the war in Afghanistan?
 
sidbrown said:
If so, then why has the USA killed so many innocent civilians in the Vietnam war, in the Iraq war and in the war in Afghanistan?
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I will not address particular historical questions here… as to what may or may not have happened…

and what is intentional killing and what may be accidental etc…

But having said that.
In the case of acts contrary to the natural law:

The fact of persons going against the natural law…does not mean that they did not know it was evil…

such is the very nature of sin.

And even if someone says “this is murder” or that is murder…or this is not murder or that is not murder…they will still somewhere along the line recognize that unjust killing…is wrong…even if they do it…they do not want it done to their family etc…

People of course deaden their conscience and some are out of their minds as well…all sorts of things can enter into as to if they recognize such and such is wrong …via natural law…

and as the Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI puts it:

“Because of sin the natural law is not always perceived nor is it recognized by everyone with equal clarity and immediacy.”
 
Bookcat said:
I will not address particular historical questions here… as to what may or may not have happened…

and what is intentional killing and what may be accidental etc…

But having said that.
In the case of acts contrary to the natural law:

The fact of persons going against the natural law…does not mean that they did not know it was evil…

such is the very nature of sin.

And even if someone says “this is murder” or that is murder…or this is not murder or that is not murder…they will still somewhere along the line recognize that unjust killing…is wrong…even if they do it…they do not want it done to their family etc…

People of course deaden their conscience and some are out of their minds as well…all sorts of things can enter into as to if they recognize such and such is wrong …via natural law…

and as the Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI puts it:

“Because of sin the natural law is not always perceived nor is it recognized by everyone with equal clarity and immediacy.”
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So there is a way out to justify the killing of thousands of innocent civilians in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Who will defend the innocent civilians who have been killed in these wars? What about the sorrow and despair that the US has brought to those families?
 
Thoughtfulone said:
O.K., so this comes down to the Natural Law argument.
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yes.
Thoughtfulone said:
O.K., so when the Magisterium describes “total self-giving”, what they are referring to is on a strictly physical level, yes? Basically, for total self-giving, the spouse has to be 1.) There and 2.) Not using ABC/sterilization/withdrawal.

Whether or not a spouse spends the entire experience wracked with worry, guilt and dread about possibly becoming pregnant, completely unable to enjoy this time with his/her spouse either physically, spiritually or emotionally, has no real bearing on this “total giving of self”, and does not render the act itself sinful, correct?
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no.

the Church’s teaching is based on the “total” vision of man, viewing him as a union of body and soul, the physical and the spiritual. therefore, BOTH aspects matter.

as Pope Paul VI said in Humanae vitae about married love:

“It is a love which is total—that very special form of personal friendship in which husband and wife generously share everything, allowing no unreasonable exceptions and not thinking solely of their own convenience. Whoever really loves his partner loves not only for what he receives, but loves that partner for the partner’s own sake, content to be able to enrich the other with the gift of himself.” (cf. HV #9)

the case you’ve mentioned about a spouse wracked with guilt rather than viewing sex as an expression of love and self-giving in some way also violates this “total self-giving.” However, it’s not an excuse to violate the physical aspect in order to remedy the spiritual concern. In fact, violating the physical aspect also harms the spiritual aspect in some other way. Aside from the fact that total self-giving is not expressed, most likely the couple only engages in contraceptive sex out of urge-gratification, pleasure, and the “convenience” of avoiding responsibility.
 
Thoughtfulone said:
Yes, I am aware that Paul VI went against the beliefs and studies of the vast majority of the council to arrive at this conclusion.
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Honestly, I don’t see this an issue. Although I see your point that a majority opinion may most likely appeal to “common sense,” the majority is not always right, and what is right is not always held by the majority. The bottom line is that the Church should teach according to the objective truth, which is not dictated by numbers.

In my humble opinion, that the Pope issued a contrary teaching in spite of the majority opinion is a sure sign that the Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit and not by purely human opinion.
 
sidbrown said:
So there is a way out to justify the killing of thousands of innocent civilians in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Who will defend the innocent civilians who have been killed in these wars? What about the sorrow and despair that the US has brought to those families?
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Like I said:

I will not address particular historical questions here… as to what may or may not have happened…

and what is intentional killing and what may be accidental etc…

this is off topic

(and would be too big and complicated thing to sort out here…and beyond my historical knowledge)

I refer you to the Catechism etc …vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P81.HTM

and the Compendium of Social Doctrine vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#CHAPTER%20ELEVEN

The Church constantly deplores the deaths of innocents etc…and calls for only just wars…and just war practices…and of course for peace etc

But again I am not getting into here what is or was a just war in the above…or even into any particular claims regarding particular conflicts.

I leave that to those who are fitted to do so in real life…

(and it would violate the rules of the forum to boot…by derailing the thread)
 
Observer3 said:
This also doesn’t bring into consideration of what couples are supposed to do if one of them has HIV. This “one answer fits all” type of logic doesn’t work when someone has HIV. No one on this board can convince me that they would become abstinent if they became infected with HIV. We are not robots. Condoms clearly are a blessing for those with certain STD’s. Everything has a purpose - it’s not all black and white or good or bad.
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I guess that’s why some people play Russian Roulette. Personally if I had HIV I would refuse to ever have relations with my husband for fear of giving it to him. Better to live a celibate life than to die a slow painful death.
 
Thoughtfulone said:
My grandmother felt like a breeder.

Where on Earth is the dignity in this?

I’m sorry, but I think that how we FEEL matters a great deal, and I think God would agree.
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sounds more like a problem of incorrect thinking. How we react to our life affects everyone. So she hated having sex and kids. How different would her life have been if she looked at each of her kids as blessings and treasures?

My grandmother had 11 pregnancies, with 10 surviving children. She worked hard all her life too and lived in public housing. My mother as the oldest girl who gave up a scholarship to work to help care for her siblings. All 10 become successful, happy, married and had large families too.

But my grandmother adored her children, each and every one. Children know when they are valued and when they are not. My mother adored and valued each of her 6 children.

If God thought feelings were all that important it would be written all over the Bible ‘do what feels right’ instead of ‘this is right and hard to do but you must do this no matter how you feel.’

It takes a change of attitude to change your life.
 
samiam1611 said:
These questions may be rhetorical…I don’t think I will ever be convinced. But I am interested in hearing your arguments on these points.
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Of course you won’t be convinced, you have decided you know best and all those who have been taught by Jesus Christ, and guided by the Holy Spirit to lead us in Faith and Morals are just clueless about real life.

Contraception is not an issue of discipline but an issue of what makes the sex act moral and what makes it immoral. To use the pleasure of sex without accepting the full purpose of the sex act is immoral. Using ABC is a deliberate act to render part of the purpose of the sex act ineffective. Using NFP at no time renders any part of the purpose of the sex act ineffective since there is a natural cycle of fertility and there is no human interference with that cycle.
 
vsedriver said:
sounds more like a problem of incorrect thinking. How we react to our life affects everyone. So she hated having sex and kids. How different would her life have been if she looked at each of her kids as blessings and treasures?

My grandmother had 11 pregnancies, with 10 surviving children. She worked hard all her life too and lived in public housing. My mother as the oldest girl who gave up a scholarship to work to help care for her siblings. All 10 become successful, happy, married and had large families too.

But my grandmother adored her children, each and every one. Children know when they are valued and when they are not. My mother adored and valued each of her 6 children.

If God thought feelings were all that important it would be written all over the Bible ‘do what feels right’ instead of ‘this is right and hard to do but you must do this no matter how you feel.’

It takes a change of attitude to change your life.
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My grandmother adores all of her children. One o them died when he was 2 and she still visits his grave several times a year and cries over him. This is NOT about not loving or cherishing your children. This is about trying to have a little bit of happiness and human dignity.
 
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