Contraception Questions

[Janet_S]

I consider my self pro-life, but can’t help but noticing **research that shows that in countries where contraception is practiced, abortion rates are lower. **

It’s more likely the opposite is true: more contraceptives lead to more abortions.

Look at the US. There was no push for legalized abortion until contraceptives became popular. As a matter of fact, the US Supreme Court opinion in both the Roe and Casey cases is rooted in the idea that we must have abortion because contraceptives don’t always work.

If you know any countries where widespread contraceptive use led to fewer abortions, I would like to know about it. It sure isn’t true in our country which in spite of being saturated with birth control and sex education still continues to have 4,000 surgical abortions done each day,

There is a recent report from the UK that concludes just the opposite of you, but if you know of any studies that support what you claimed, I would like to see them.

 

[Janet_S]

For faith and works, read JPII’s encyclicals Evalgelium Vitae and Veritatis Splendor. They’re widely available in print too, I got them both at the library:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/_INDEX.HTM

Also, listen to or read Janet Smith’s talk, Contraception, Why Not? (I know someone else already suggested this):

catholicaudio.blogspot.com/2007/07/janet-smith-contraception-why-not.html

The Church’s teachings against contraceptives and abortion are 2 sides to the same coin. Assent to them doesn’t come easily; I understand and used to disagree with them too. But I encourage you to continue to struggle and learn. If we came across as hate mongers, sorry.

 

[YADA]

Yada,

I struggle with the question of voting, and I respect your opinion of Republican politics related to abortion, even though we may not see eye to eye.

Tell me this, though. Was a vote for George Bush and Dick Cheney a vote for life? What of all the lives lost and blood shed in Iraq – a place whe had/have no business fighting a war. Thousands of American soldiers dead and countless more wounded, not to mention the local casualties. Pro-life means pro-life, and to be pro-life related to abortion and not war or the death penalty, etc, is not being pro-life. Not such an easy no-brainer to me.

Peace,

faithandworks

Sorry for the late response … I have been out of cell range and without internet access at my mother’s in thre country …

Abortion kills more people each day around the globe then have killed or maimed in Iraq and Afganistan since the start of the war on all sides - so while I agree that war is awful [though at times can be necessary] then your point is lost …

Individal people will always be more or less “pro-life” and fall closer or farther then the “Christian” ideal … actually that is a no brainer as nothing [man made and operated by humans] will ever reach perfection …

Now the Democratic Party platform advocates for killing children … the republican party platform does not … One belives in the humanity of the unborn and one does not …

As for policies … Well the Great Society has not illustrated tat it strengthens the family - in fact quite the opposite … more children are born to unwed parents today then 40 years ago … the liberal policies actually enable poor [and all women] to have children outside of the traditionl 2 parent family … many people never even think if that as a necessity anymore… and the poloicies do not help women but enable men a “free” oppritunity to have sex without responsibility … amd most women seek abortions - not because they want one … they are coerst into getting them by boy-friends, parents and friends [add to that teachers, etc] … most women just want their partner to love them and their baby … sadly the bably is lost in the discussion [yes - just a blob of tissue]

So do the Democrats and Republicans differ on suitable amounts for aid like Food STamps - yes …and there are plusses and minuses to both positions — hence debate and laws are passed … where one side thinks $1000 per month and one $500 … the net result might be $750 … that is not evil - that is how it should be …

Me, I think if you need to feed people, house people and assist - that is best not done from Washington DC or the State [andy goernment level] at all … we are called to do that as Chroistians and not abdicate that to “Ceaser” … there is no gain in sending money $$] to Washington and have it filtered back [less then a $] to the local community to solve problemms like poverty …

if you think that then I have a bridge to sell you …

 

[faithandworks]

Apparently I have come across as less than charitable, and if so I apologize. I tried to make clear that my opinion was never meant to single out any who were involved with this thread. The truth is that there are hate-mongers in all walks of life, including the church and the Church. I do not think of you that way. To the contrary, you have all graciously provided me with much to think about, which is obviously why I am here.

I have learned long ago that you have to know your target audience. I would not come on to a Catholic forum and try to get Catholics to change their mind. I was simply looking for some every day people to give me some every day reasons why my thinking was flawed. I believe the Holy Spirit has chalenged me on my thinking and I am looking for help getting where I need to be…Some of you have given me much to think about and some have simply restated the Church’s stand. All of you, I believe, had good intentions in your responses. Some of you have taken the extra step of personally contacting me and sharing your personal stories and personal reasons you believe and follow what you so. That is exactly what I wanted/needed. Thank you very much – the Holy Spirit is working in you.

I also apologize for bringing politics in here if it does not belong. I am a new member and apparently do not quite understand the rules altogether, but please do not get angry with me. If you don’t want to answer my questions, I am not offended, but blanket exclamation answers do none of us any good.

I am going to consider what you have all said…Thank you all agaon and God Bless.

 

[mark_a]

however, as I can find no liturgical, nor biblical authority for the stance on contraception,

Here are two articles that give the type of detail you seem to be asking for:

ccli.org/nfp/morality/bible.php

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f

and I also believe that differentiating NFP from other common contraceptions is virtually impossible.

Keep in mind that nfp can be used to *help *get pregnant.

Sincere Catholics also know that using nfp to avoid pregnancy is only to be used for serious reasons.

nfp vs condom usage is about as comparable as condoms vs crocadile dung and lemons (the ancient egyptian method).

 

[ahollars]

"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. "

~1 Cor 7:1-7~

NFP allows for this. Contraception does not. Simple as that.

 

[faithandworks]

Sincere Catholics also know that using nfp to avoid pregnancy is only to be used for serious reasons.

I do understand your point about using NFP to get pregnant as well as to avoid it.

Irrelevent to your argument, I believe that many Catholics do use NFP to avoid pregnancy, with less than serious reasons, but believe they are following doctrine. I think many believe they are still following doctrine if they use NFP because they “don’t want” children at a certain time…Hence many 2 and 3 children catholic families now. According to what I have read and been shown here, that seems to be inconsistent with doctrine. Would you agree?

Thank you for your post and participation.

Rich

 

[faithandworks]

Take it to the politics forum, please!

Dear Kage_ar,

I am sorry if I bent the rules here – I am a new participant. I have learned so much and have found some wonderful replies in this thread. If I did step out of line by bringing politics into this area where it is not supposed to be, perhaps your initial response to my question about politics was an indication that it was permissible. I sincerely did not mean to irritate you and I shall endeavor to post political posts only where permitted. Please be patient with me, after all, I am here to learn.

Peace and God’s gentle blessings on you…

Rich

 

[ahollars]

~1 Cor 7:1-7~

NFP allows for this. Contraception does not. Simple as that.

Allow me to explain this better.

NFP, by it’s definition, is the actual practice of abstaining for awhile so that a husband and wife may come together in prayer. This passage recognizes that such periods were meant to be short term for spouses, lest they fall into sin by their own nature.

Contraception does not allow this because there is no abstinence involved. It is falling into the vice of lust with zero consequence. There is no accountability or responsibility. Sex is no longer procreative. Conception tells God that the marital relationship is no longer divine, but simply for the entertainment of the spouses. It is selfish, because there is an active interference in willfully preventing conception for the purpose for satisfying lustful impulses. There is no time for reflection or prayer. Contraception is also a gateway to the other sins of the flesh, such as sodomy, adultery, and perhaps even homosexuality.

NFP is procreative because it allows for God to create, should He decide to. Some parents on this website can testify that they conceived even while using NFP when they thought they were abstaining at the correct time. It is the act of abstinence that forces us to recognize that we are not simply slaves to our nature. We are capable of free will, and we use that free will to wait until the chance of conception is low. It is this abstinence that is good for the souls of married couples that makes them holy before God. Many people here will tell you that NFP has improved their married lives by creating mutual respect for each other.

For the first mention of willful contraception, check this out:

Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so the LORD put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.

~Gen 38:6-10~

See the problem here? Onan would have done nothing wrong if he simply refused to lie with his brother’s widow, but by taking things up by himself, he faced grave consequences.

 

[kage_ar]

Dear Kage_ar,

I am sorry if I bent the rules here – I am a new participant. I have learned so much and have found some wonderful replies in this thread. If I did step out of line by bringing politics into this area where it is not supposed to be, perhaps your initial response to my question about politics was an indication that it was permissible. I sincerely did not mean to irritate you and I shall endeavor to post political posts only where permitted. Please be patient with me, after all, I am here to learn.

Peace and God’s gentle blessings on you…

Rich

Simply trying to keep the thread from being closed down

We can discuss moral issues here - peace to you as well.

 

[mark_a]

I do understand your point about using NFP to get pregnant as well as to avoid it.

Irrelevent to your argument, I believe that many Catholics do use NFP to avoid pregnancy, with less than serious reasons, but believe they are following doctrine. I think many believe they are still following doctrine if they use NFP because they “don’t want” children at a certain time…Hence many 2 and 3 children catholic families now. According to what I have read and been shown here, that seems to be inconsistent with doctrine. Would you agree?

Thank you for your post and participation.

Rich

While I would love it if you were correct about the 2-3 children statement, the % Catholics who use contraception is the same as the general population.

People open to nfp are generally much more open to life.

Most Catholics are terribly inconsistant with Catholic doctrine, the reasons are many. But willful ignorance is no excuse.

 

[Alindawyl]

I do understand your point about using NFP to get pregnant as well as to avoid it.

Irrelevent to your argument, I believe that many Catholics do use NFP to avoid pregnancy, with less than serious reasons, but believe they are following doctrine. I think many believe they are still following doctrine if they use NFP because they “don’t want” children at a certain time…Hence many 2 and 3 children catholic families now. According to what I have read and been shown here, that seems to be inconsistent with doctrine. Would you agree?

Thank you for your post and participation.

Rich

It’s not for us to say that a family practicing NFP with only one or two children (or no children at all) is using NFP for the wrong reasons. They may be totally justified in not seeking more children, or not seeking any children at all. That judgement is between the two of them and God, not a third party. What seems like a minor reason or no reason at all to an outsider may be a major reason to someone else.

They may also be seeking to achieve a pregnancy and it’s just not happening for whatever reason. I can’t point the finger at a couple with no children or only one child and declare them to be doing wrong without knowing their situation and reasons, and quite honestly it’s none of my business unless they choose to make it my business. There could be problems - physical, mental or both - which we’re not aware of and which we should not be made aware of. Always assume good motives unless given a clear reason to assume bad motives.

 

[chain]

please forgive me if this is off topic or incorrect.

Jewish law prescribed that inheritance was transferred from father to (first) child, wives did not inherit. A relative was allowed to be a surrogate to allow for inheritance to pass on with the family. Since the oldest son died without an heir, the inheritance would have gone to the next closest male (the second son). By refusing to do his duty under the law to insure his brother would have an heir - he was “stealing” that inheritance.

Anyway, there was a lot more than disobedience and spilling seed going on - it was a large property theft.​

NFP causes a change in the thought patterns of users. Many who start using it w/o serious reasons end up becoming more open to life. While society sees these NFP users as failures because they have large families - it was not a failure of method to prevent conception, but a success of the method to heal their heart.