Contraception reconsiderd?

[shelby_sun]

@johnr77

Your response is made up almost entirely of assumptions about people who use ABC.

The bottom line is that whether NFP or ABC, the end goal is to avoid pregnancy.

If you dress up a pig and slap lipstick on him, it’s still a pig.

Agreed. For those who feel like AC is only about fulfilling sexual pleasure have never experienced coming together is such a special way with the person you share everything with before God physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. That is much less like to happen when a couple is worried about having more children they simply cannot handle whether emotionally or financially. Why should they add to the stress of everyday life, when they have already been open to having children. The have followed God wishes. NFP and AC has the same intent.

 

[JohnR77]

I have to say that I find this comment to be rather insulting. There are any number of people (Catholic and non-Catholic) who are in loving relationships and raising children who either are or have used some form of AC.

Hi James (and the rest),

Well, can we both agree that Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta got it right ?

“That same selfishness that wants to prevent the child by contraception will grow until it wants to kill the child already conceived.”
—Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta
prolifeaction.org/cinta/case.htm

.

 

[JohnR77]

However do you have grounds to assert that contraception failure leads to abortion?
.

Hi Bob,
Please consider the following quotations and links that are at the bottom of the site i sent earlier.

Abortion and Contraception: Fruits of the Same Tree

“ … They are linked by a common mentality, which is that I may stifle the power of sex to produce a new life. Pope John Paul II wrote in his encyclical The Gospel of Life, **" It is frequently asserted that contraception, if made safe and available to all, is the most effective remedy against abortion. The Catholic Church is then accused of actually promoting abortion, because she obstinately continues to teach the moral unlawfulness of contraception. When looked at carefully, this objection is clearly unfounded. It may be that many people use contraception with a view to excluding the subsequent temptation of abortion. But the negative values inherent in the “contraceptive mentality”—which is very different from responsible parenthood, lived in respect for the full truth of the conjugal act—are such that they in fact strengthen this temptation when an unwanted life is conceived. Indeed, the pro- abortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church’s teaching on contraception is rejected" (n. 13).”
**priestsforlife.org/library/4370-abortion-and-contraception-fruits-of-the-same-tree

Condoms Encourage Promiscuity which Leads to More Infections: Namibian Bishop
lifesitenews.com/news/condoms-encourage-promiscuity-which-leads-to-more-infections-namibian-bisho

Contraception and Abortion: The Underlying Link
usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/contraception/articles-and-publications/contraception-and-abortion-the-underlying-link.cfm

“[F]or every 1,000 teens between 15 and 19 years of age enrolled in family planning clinics, we can expect between 50 to 120 more pregnancies.”
—Institute for Research and Evaluation director Stan E. Weed

“Contraceptive users appear to have been more motivated to prevent births than were nonusers.”
—Alan Guttmacher Institute researcher Stanley K. Henshaw

“With effective contraception controlled by women, there are still more abortions than ever. . . . [C]ontraception causes abortion.”
—Sociologist Lionel Tiger, 1999

“At the risk of being repetitious, I would remind the group that we have found the highest frequency of induced abortions in the group which, in general, most frequently uses contraception.”
—Notorious “sexologist” Alfred Kinsey, 1955

“As people turn to contraception, there will be a rise, not a fall, in the abortion rate.”
—Abortionist Malcolm Potts, 1976

“There is overwhelming evidence that, contrary to what you might expect, the provision of contraception leads to an increase in the abortion rate.”
—Abortionist Judith Bury, 1981

“The close connection which exists, in mentality, between the practice of contraception and that of abortion is becoming increasingly obvious.”
—Pope John Paul II, 1995

prolifeaction.org/cinta/case.htm

By the way, I updated my page below by fixing the links.
Many good articles (for those who do not like my writing.)

defendingthebride.com/pr/contraception.html

.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Hello everyone, been a while.

I am sort of a “rediscovering” Catholic, having taken a hiatus from my faith for a year or so.

While I agree with the Churche’s teaching on artificial contraception ( immoral, selfish, not open to gods plan for life etc) I do wonder if it sometimes doesn’t do some good. For example, contraception does stop selfish, irresponsible, immature people from producing children. This is my main point.

I think it is really underestimated and under appreciated what harm is done from people having sex out of wedlock and producing children. Such children are far more likely to suffer from poverty, sexual+ physical abuse, and a general bad outcome on life than ones born in marriage. I have read that a child born to a married couple already has far more advantages than say a child born to a girl who got pregnant at age 16.

I personally believe the legion of hardships that plague the African American community would be much decreased if marriage were the norm in the inner cities of Chicago or Detroit. Instead in the black inner cities ( and elsewhere) what happens often is ignorant teenagers and 20 year olds, perhaps influenced by sexualized culture have sex without thinking of consequences, then end up having children who they are perhaps either unwilling or incapable to take care of properly. Often in poor, out of wedlock families, the father is nowhere to be seen, which I believe can influence violent behavior in the sons and promiscuity in the daughters. I could go on and on.

I know it is an UnCatholic opinion I have, that puts me at odds with the Church, but I feel I cannot help but have it. That is, if people (especially young people) are going to be selfish and and immoral when it comes for sex, than for goodness sake, take all the precautions you can to not have children! It quite frankly isn’t fair.

I know of course, it is best if they just be good Christians, and not have sex at all. That is a nice opinion to have, one that I agree with, but I do believe it is unreasonable to expect that behavior will occur to many people, and that many people will not be dismissive of such an attitude. I think that ultimately if people are going to have sex outside of marriage, it is better if they use contraception, than if they produce a child they are incapable of parenting kindly or responsibly.

I keep thinking of Adrian Peterson, the Vikings quarterback. He has 7 children by 7 different women, ( that we know of.) I do hate to be harsh, but Im sure almost all of them were just women he lusted for and had sex with without thinking of the consequences. It would be better I believe for him to have used contraception when he did that. He definitely is not parenting material. We know that he beat one of his kids raw with a switch ( 4 year old boy covered in scars. Im sure anything a 4 year old would have done, would deserve a spanking or face smack at the very most.) One of his children was killed by the baby mamma’s boyfriend, and he is accused of beating another.

I do not believe his children have great outcomes in life, and don’t believe he has ambitions to be a serious parent.

Ok he’s just an example of the dangers of promiscuous non contraceptive sex? What do you think of my proposition? Crazy? Reasonable? Sort of smart, but flirting with sinful thinking? Id love to know.

We are not allowed to play God. No good ever comes from violating God’s laws. We obey God and trust him to bring about the best possible results. There really isn’t any point in arguing about it is there? How could we possibly know better than God? Isn’t that rather arrogant? Look at Abraham. He trusted God to the point he was willing to sacrafice his own son. And God proved Abraham’s faith was true.

God Bless
Linus2nd

 

[shelby_sun]

You simply cannot lump everyone that uses BC into the same group and apply those quotes to fit them. There are many loving coupled in committed marriages that use ABC because they have the number of children they can responsible take care of.

BC is not the only reason abortions are going up. The amount of drink and drug use, in the US anyway, has increased more than you can imagine. My husband, who has been a toxicologist fro drugs and alcohol in a major city for over 20 years can tell you how much drinking goes on with teens and college kids, not mention those in their 20s and 30s.

I completely disagree with the comment that wanting to prevent pregnancy will lead to accepting abortion. There are many very good married couples that would agree with me on that!

 

[JRKH]

Hi James (and the rest),

Well, can we both agree that Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta got it right ?

“That same selfishness that wants to prevent the child by contraception will grow until it wants to kill the child already conceived.”
—Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta
prolifeaction.org/cinta/case.htm

.

Yes I think we can say that Mother Teresa got it right but that does not necessarily translate into what you stated in your post.
Without knowing the context of her comment I can only make an assumption…but I assume that her comment was in a broad, “cultural” sense. The selfishness of a culture that wants (and allows and promotes) the prevention of a pregnancy will eventually grow to the point of killing the unborn.
Your comments were much more specific “The person who…”.

Peace
James

 

[Epona148]

Hello everyone, been a while.

I am sort of a “rediscovering” Catholic, having taken a hiatus from my faith for a year or so.

While I agree with the Churche’s teaching on artificial contraception ( immoral, selfish, not open to gods plan for life etc) I do wonder if it sometimes doesn’t do some good. For example, contraception does stop selfish, irresponsible, immature people from producing children. This is my main point.

I think it is really underestimated and under appreciated what harm is done from people having sex out of wedlock and producing children. Such children are far more likely to suffer from poverty, sexual+ physical abuse, and a general bad outcome on life than ones born in marriage. I have read that a child born to a married couple already has far more advantages than say a child born to a girl who got pregnant at age 16.

I personally believe the legion of hardships that plague the African American community would be much decreased if marriage were the norm in the inner cities of Chicago or Detroit. Instead in the black inner cities ( and elsewhere) what happens often is ignorant teenagers and 20 year olds, perhaps influenced by sexualized culture have sex without thinking of consequences, then end up having children who they are perhaps either unwilling or incapable to take care of properly. Often in poor, out of wedlock families, the father is nowhere to be seen, which I believe can influence violent behavior in the sons and promiscuity in the daughters. I could go on and on.

I know it is an UnCatholic opinion I have, that puts me at odds with the Church, but I feel I cannot help but have it. That is, if people (especially young people) are going to be selfish and and immoral when it comes for sex, than for goodness sake, take all the precautions you can to not have children! It quite frankly isn’t fair.

I know of course, it is best if they just be good Christians, and not have sex at all. That is a nice opinion to have, one that I agree with, but I do believe it is unreasonable to expect that behavior will occur to many people, and that many people will not be dismissive of such an attitude. I think that ultimately if people are going to have sex outside of marriage, it is better if they use contraception, than if they produce a child they are incapable of parenting kindly or responsibly.

I keep thinking of Adrian Peterson, the Vikings quarterback. He has 7 children by 7 different women, ( that we know of.) I do hate to be harsh, but Im sure almost all of them were just women he lusted for and had sex with without thinking of the consequences. It would be better I believe for him to have used contraception when he did that. He definitely is not parenting material. We know that he beat one of his kids raw with a switch ( 4 year old boy covered in scars. Im sure anything a 4 year old would have done, would deserve a spanking or face smack at the very most.) One of his children was killed by the baby mamma’s boyfriend, and he is accused of beating another.

I do not believe his children have great outcomes in life, and don’t believe he has ambitions to be a serious parent.

Ok he’s just an example of the dangers of promiscuous non contraceptive sex? What do you think of my proposition? Crazy? Reasonable? Sort of smart, but flirting with sinful thinking? Id love to know.

I have to agree. We are now seeing 2nd and 3rd generations of this. How do you preach chastity to a young girl that doesn’t know her father and her mother is advising her to get pregnant so she can “get a house”? As long as people are rewarded for immoral behavior on Earth, they will continue to practice it. Having worked in an environment where I saw this over and over again, I have to admit, it is too far gone. I truly feel the only thing that will stop it, is consequences. People no longer suffer consequences. Not on this earth.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Well with that way of thinking God would have never allowed Jesus to be murdered on the cross to save our souls, right? It seems He allowed it for the better good of mankind, didn’t He?

Sure, but God can do that because He’s God.

 

[Cimachol]

You mean obeying like cults do or extremist do? You r argument is poor and makes me think you have never connected with a person as the way I described. Giving ourselves to our spouse in such a special way should not be hindered by something like the wrong time of month. I would bet it is the biggest “broken rule” of Catholics, even those who go to Church every Sunday.

Are you saying that to follow Church teaching is to be an extremist? It seems to me that we either accept the moral authority of the Church as members of the Church or reject the authority of the Church and call ourselves Protestants. I choose Catholic. I only pray that I can one day be an extreme enough Catholic to become a saint.

I do speak in part from my own experience and know that a married couple can connect emotionally, spiritually and physically even when practicing NFP, and can do so at any time of the month, even without necessarily having sex. Actually, sometimes waiting and longing for someone can be romantic in its own way.

Whether the rule is often broken or not has no impact on in its validity.

 

[Cimachol]

If one practices NFP, one would rather not have a baby, but would begrudgingly accept pregnancy, should their efforts to AVOID pregnancy fail.

If one uses a condom, one would rather not have a baby, but would begrudgingly accept pregnancy, should their efforts to AVOID pregnancy fail.

There is absolutely no difference.

In both cases, the couple do not want to have a baby, but would accept it, should it occur.

The funny thing is that the people who claim the do things are the same are willing to do one but not the other. Why is that? What would those who use contraception have to give up in order to use NFP? Clearly there is something, or there would be no reason for them not to.

NFP requires a constant “yes” to God’s design. If a couple chooses to wait to have sex because they are in a fertile period, they say yes to God’s design by waiting. During infertile periods, they say yes to God’s plan, which includes a natural time period during which one happens not to be fertile. They also say yes to each other, both by engaging in the marital act and by being willing to wait for one another. Even though the couple may not wish to conceive at a given time, they at least show respect for the procreative nature of sexual intercourse by not interfering with it.

Contraception says no. It says not to God’s plan and no to the procreative nature of the marital act. In a way, the couple says no to each other – “I want you completely; well, except for your procreative abilities.”

 

[JRKH]

Something that I so often here in these conversations are echos from the Gospels. On the one side is “The Law”…Good Laws and upheld by Christ who said in Mt 23:1 that we are to do what our leaders tell us. Likewise in Mt 22:17 we are told to listen to the Church.
On the other side, I see Jesus admonishing the Pharisees for their legalism at the expense of mercy and justice and love.
When the Apostles were pulling grain on the sabbath and the Pharisees objected, Jesus admonished them saying that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
When they rebuked him for not washing before eating, He told them firmly that it is what is in a mans heart that makes him (ritually) “clean or unclean” - not whether he washed his hands.
Then there were the healings on the Sabbath - something forbidden by the teachings of the church at that time. Yet Jesus knew full well that if their donkey or sheep fell down a well, they would violate the sabbath to pull it out…

I would never dispute the Church’s teaching or our obligation to follow it to the best of our ability, but I do wonder if we too can sometimes lose sight of the mercy and love aspect when applying the “laws” of the Church.

For myself, I would say that in public and open discussion on generalities, we all need to give support to Church teaching.
In private where individual cases are discussed among couples and (hopefully) their pastor…there may be more wiggle room…

Love, not rules, is the most important thing…

Just my 3 cents worth.

Peace
James

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Something that I so often here in these conversations are echos from the Gospels. On the one side is “The Law”…Good Laws and upheld by Christ who said in Mt 23:1 that we are to do what our leaders tell us. Likewise in Mt 22:17 we are told to listen to the Church.
On the other side, I see Jesus admonishing the Pharisees for their legalism at the expense of mercy and justice and love.
When the Apostles were pulling grain on the sabbath and the Pharisees objected, Jesus admonished them saying that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
When they rebuked him for not washing before eating, He told them firmly that it is what is in a mans heart that makes him (ritually) “clean or unclean” - not whether he washed his hands.
Then there were the healings on the Sabbath - something forbidden by the teachings of the church at that time. Yet Jesus knew full well that if their donkey or sheep fell down a well, they would violate the sabbath to pull it out…

I would never dispute the Church’s teaching or our obligation to follow it to the best of our ability, but I do wonder if we too can sometimes lose sight of the mercy and love aspect when applying the “laws” of the Church.

For myself, I would say that in public and open discussion on generalities, we all need to give support to Church teaching.
In private where individual cases are discussed among couples and (hopefully) their pastor…there may be more wiggle room…

Love, not rules, is the most important thing…

Just my 3 cents worth.

Peace
James

No pastor can change the moral law.

Linus2nd

 

[Tomdstone]

The church’s ban on the pill and contraceptives hasn’t made one iota of difference to society’s use of the pill or any other contraceptive device.

Do Catholics still believe that the use of the pill is a mortal sin? Why aren’t there more sermons about this, if this mortal sin is so prevelant?

 

[JRKH]

No pastor can change the moral law.

Linus2nd

True - and I never said he could.

Peace
James

 

[shelby_sun]

Do Catholics still believe that the use of the pill is a mortal sin? Why aren’t there more sermons about this, if this mortal sin is so prevelant?

There is a huge number of Catholic that simply do not think the pill is a sin. They feel that the intent is the same as using NFP, which is to prevent pregnancy. This is especially true for married couple that already have children. Just saying. I only know one couple who has ever used NFP.

 

[Tomdstone]

There is a huge number of Catholic that simply do not think the pill is a sin. They feel that the intent is the same as using NFP, which is to prevent pregnancy. This is especially true for married couple that already have children. Just saying. I only know one couple who has ever used NFP.

If a Catholic does not think that the pill is a sin, do they still commit a mortal sin by using it or not?
If a criminal thinks it is OK to rob a bank, does he commit a mortal sin by robbing the bank of $20,000?
If the use of the pill is a mortal sin, and the sin is so prevalent, endangering the eternal salvation of so many people, why doesn’t Holy Mother the Catholic Church, out of solicitude and concern for the eternal salvation of souls under its care, impose and require more sermons on why contraception is a mortal sin?

 

[shelby_sun]

If a Catholic does not think that the pill is a sin, do they still commit a mortal sin by using it or not?
If a criminal thinks it is OK to rob a bank, does he commit a mortal sin by robbing the bank of $20,000?
If the use of the pill is a mortal sin, and the sin is so prevalent, endangering the eternal salvation of so many people, why doesn’t Holy Mother the Catholic Church, out of solicitude and concern for the eternal salvation of souls under its care, impose and require more sermons on why contraception is a mortal sin?

Well maybe they should for younger generations, but that is not going to stop those who are already using it or those who do not believe it is different than using NFP because they intent is the same.

 

[CrossofChrist]

If the use of the pill is a mortal sin, and the sin is so prevalent, endangering the eternal salvation of so many people, why doesn’t Holy Mother the Catholic Church, out of solicitude and concern for the eternal salvation of souls under its care, impose and require more sermons on why contraception is a mortal sin?

People in general today are in need of understanding what the core of the Christian faith is. If the Church really started to hammer the teaching on contraception in during sermons, the most likely outcome is people would take it to mean being Catholic=being against something, following rules, etc.

If someone genuinely loves Jesus and is willing to follow him “to the end”, then the teachings become easier and make more sense. Heck, even a personalist or thomistic understanding of the world will give you the same answer re:contraception. But everything becomes more beautiful and complete with a Christocentric perspective.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that people need Jesus. That’s what they need. Period. When that truth is received then they can see the unity between Christ and the Church, and that the Catholic Church depends solely on Jesus.

 

[CrossofChrist]

People in general today are in need of understanding what the core of the Christian faith is. If the Church really started to hammer the teaching on contraception in during sermons, the most likely outcome is people would take it to mean being Catholic=being against something, following rules, etc.

If someone genuinely loves Jesus and is willing to follow him “to the end”, then the teachings become easier and make more sense. Heck, even a personalist or thomistic understanding of the world will give you the same answer re:contraception. But everything becomes more beautiful and complete with a Christocentric perspective.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that people need Jesus. That’s what they need. Period. When that truth is received then they can see the unity between Christ and the Church, and that the Catholic Church depends solely on Jesus.

The Church is also reluctant to say that someone committed a mortal sin. They may have objectively committed a grave sin though. It’s not for us as individuals/nonconfessors to decide or examine the subjective guilt of someone else.

It’s one thing for someone to say, or rather think, that contraception isn’t wrong (or at least gravely so) if they aren’t well catechized or they weren’t really sure on how serious it was. Perhaps they think, “I know (in some vague way) the Church disapproves of contraception, but everyone uses it and there is generally no concern coming from others, so it’s probably not grave matter like abortion or punching a child, running over someone, etc.” It’s quite another thing for someone to say, “Well, I know what the Church teaches on contraception, but I don’t think it’s wrong, so I won’t be committing a grave sin.”