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christcnection1
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Thanks for sharing the powerful article. I encourage others to read it and share their thoughts. I found the following quote particularly hard-hitting:
“Whatever Sean (Hannity) studied in the seminary it clearly wasn’t ecclesiology or sacramental theology if he could so glibly abandon the Eucharist by going to a Protestant church over this matter.”
“Whatever Sean (Hannity) studied in the seminary it clearly wasn’t ecclesiology or sacramental theology if he could so glibly abandon the Eucharist by going to a Protestant church over this matter.”
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rlg94086
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Actually, my favorite part is right before that quote…
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magician
Guest
This entire issue is ridiculous. Birth control for the Catholic Church is about control, not birth. The NFP method can be summarized as a pagan ritual utilized by those who fantasize that God is actually watching their every move in bed.
The article plays right into the hands of those who would condemn the Church as an antiquated institution, run by a crowd of dirty old men in Rome.
Jesus said nothing about sex. He may have said “Be fruitful and multiply”, but He never endorsed losing control over your body and your soul. The Church’s stand on artificial contraception does exactly that - it encourages couples to be focused on sex 24/7. It removes the spontaneity that God intended for couples and reduces it to an animal instinct to be regulated by Church “doctrine”.
It’s not a coincidence that 95% of all Catholics disregard the Church’s teaching on contraception. Thank God, we have 95% sane people still functioning as normal human beings.
The article plays right into the hands of those who would condemn the Church as an antiquated institution, run by a crowd of dirty old men in Rome.
Jesus said nothing about sex. He may have said “Be fruitful and multiply”, but He never endorsed losing control over your body and your soul. The Church’s stand on artificial contraception does exactly that - it encourages couples to be focused on sex 24/7. It removes the spontaneity that God intended for couples and reduces it to an animal instinct to be regulated by Church “doctrine”.
It’s not a coincidence that 95% of all Catholics disregard the Church’s teaching on contraception. Thank God, we have 95% sane people still functioning as normal human beings.
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NVBurch
Guest
How about if you first read the article cited and then comment?
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momof8
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Thank you for posting this link. There are many points in the article that are wonderfully expressed, but I think this was my favorite:
“there is a significant movement in the Catholic Church of people who refer to themselves as “orthodox” Catholics, meaning they accept Church teachings — all of them — not out “blind obedience” as is often charged, but out of love, conviction and principle. Not to mention coming to see the truth of them and agreeing with them through hard life’s experience.”
I read that and thought, yes! This is exactly what my faith is to me. I wish my ex-husband could have understood this when I tried to say it to him, but even if I had expressed it this way, he would not have been able to understand. I, too, came to “see the truth of them… through hard life’s experience.” I go to Mass every Sunday not because it “counts”, but because I love God and He asks me to be there, so I go. Not to mention that I realize better now the great gifts He wants to give me there. I wanted to practice NFP not because I blindly believed whatever the Church said, but out of a conviction that the Church was right! Yes, I was blind, but now I see. Now if I could just live up to all that I’ve seen and all that I don’t even yet understand.
But I still have a related question. If 95% of Catholics contracept, and contraception is a love killer, then really shouldn’t the Catholic divorce rate be more like 95% instead of the 50% or so that it is? I suppose not all those who cease to love, get divorced. There are a lot of financial and other reasons to stay married. And God’s grace may be holdling the marriage together in spite of their actions. And they may be loving quite well within the truth as they understand it, even if they don’t understand it very well on that point, and don’t realize that they would love even more if they were able to have God as much in their marriage as He would like to be. Those are my guesses. Does anyone have better ones?
“there is a significant movement in the Catholic Church of people who refer to themselves as “orthodox” Catholics, meaning they accept Church teachings — all of them — not out “blind obedience” as is often charged, but out of love, conviction and principle. Not to mention coming to see the truth of them and agreeing with them through hard life’s experience.”
I read that and thought, yes! This is exactly what my faith is to me. I wish my ex-husband could have understood this when I tried to say it to him, but even if I had expressed it this way, he would not have been able to understand. I, too, came to “see the truth of them… through hard life’s experience.” I go to Mass every Sunday not because it “counts”, but because I love God and He asks me to be there, so I go. Not to mention that I realize better now the great gifts He wants to give me there. I wanted to practice NFP not because I blindly believed whatever the Church said, but out of a conviction that the Church was right! Yes, I was blind, but now I see. Now if I could just live up to all that I’ve seen and all that I don’t even yet understand.
But I still have a related question. If 95% of Catholics contracept, and contraception is a love killer, then really shouldn’t the Catholic divorce rate be more like 95% instead of the 50% or so that it is? I suppose not all those who cease to love, get divorced. There are a lot of financial and other reasons to stay married. And God’s grace may be holdling the marriage together in spite of their actions. And they may be loving quite well within the truth as they understand it, even if they don’t understand it very well on that point, and don’t realize that they would love even more if they were able to have God as much in their marriage as He would like to be. Those are my guesses. Does anyone have better ones?
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christcnection1
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Hi Magician… I am curious to know your denomination and/or particular worldview. To continue in this important dialogue it might be beneficial to understand your point of reference. If you desire, please elaborate on your stance. Thank you.
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kaysette
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Ummm…okayyyyyy…and Rev. Falwell’s church and theology have no rules or judgment?
That’s almost laughable.
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kaysette
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Very good article.
I am just so sick about Hannity feeling that he is unwanted by the Catholics. As a new convert, and having struggled with some of these issues for 7 years before feeling I could embrace the church’s authority and teachings on faith and morals, my heart just aches. I knew if I were honest and sincere, I could not join the Catholic Church if I withheld my own rebellion on some issues. For me, it would be like confessing all my sins and withholding one dark sin that I did not intend to give up nor repent over.
I have been in many churches over the years – baptist, non-denom, AG, UPC, and many others. I would go for awhile, depending on which area I lived in and what doctrines I “liked” at the time. Basically, it usually depended on which doctrines I could “live” and endorse to be accepted.
Sean is mistaken that Protestants don’t have their own set of criteria for being “a good Christian.” They have just as many, if not more, guidelines. He will find out. He will feel the emptiness of the “Welch’s grape juice and ‘waiver’.”
The reason I kept studying and praying and never gave up, was because I kept reading the writings of the early church fathers. The more I studied, the more I was convinced that there was no such thing as “license” to sin and that God DID still see sin in the believer, if unrepented. I saw that my salvation was not dependent on one little repeated prayer in a frenzied altar call, or one baptism performed years ago–but the fact that I continued to love the Lord enough to keep HIS commandments and endure to the end.
Each church has their own little set of prescribed “musts” in order to prove you are a real believer. They may say they believe we are “saved by grace, and that not of works” but they still watch for your “works”. They will watch him like a hawk…and the only part of his leaving they will celebrate, is that he finally left “the whore of babylon” and the papacy. (“Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do…”)
Someone I love dearly recently asked me “How can you go into the Catholic Church and that BONDAGE when you have been a free believer for so many years?”
It’s really quite simple – LOVE.
I finally love the Lord and His LORDSHIP and the saints who have gone before me–who fought for the faith and the truth–ENOUGH to think they lived and died for SOMETHING important. I finally have lost my youthful selfishness enough to believe that my decisions in life really DO effect OTHERS and that I did live my life to please myself. I am sitting here crying, as I type. I am truly repentent for the way I took control of my own life and lived to please myself. How would my life be different today, had I had the love of a couple more children? How would my children’s lives be today, if they had had the love of a couple more siblings? Whose lives would those children have effected, had I trusted the Lord enough, and given my time to raise them and love them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? Which one of my babies might have gone on to be a nun or a priest, or a leader who would have stood up for Jesus and the faith and won many souls to the Kingdom? Which one of their brothers or sisters may have stopped a couple of them from taking their first drug?My THINGS I am have accumulated and my bank account now seem pretty empty and shallow. My nice furniture is now old and shows wear, my cars eventually konked, the memories of vacations have faded. Now, the only thing that matters to me in life –are the children I agreed to bear—and already one of them is gone. I don’t even know how many babies my contraception murdered–but my Dr. once told me at a time of heavy bleeding that I had no doubt “aborted” a baby because of an IUD. I know in my heart that happened many times.
And the saddest thing of all? The blessed Mother was willing to say “let it be according to they will” in the face of much opposition and political incorrectness — and I was unwilling to even give this part of my existence to the wisdom of my Lord. Jesus Himself said those who want to be His brethren and Mother have to DO HIS WILL.
“Father in Heaven, I am so very sorry…”
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rlg94086
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kaysette
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<<<Does anyone have better ones?>>>
Probably the same reason there are wonderful Christians in Protestant churches who really live their faith – minus a few beliefs or doctrines. They have something…but are they living in the FULLNESS of the faith? Are they missing something in holding out on something?
And the point everyone else seems to be making - Have they really been taught sufficiently to be fully responsible?
Probably the same reason there are wonderful Christians in Protestant churches who really live their faith – minus a few beliefs or doctrines. They have something…but are they living in the FULLNESS of the faith? Are they missing something in holding out on something?
And the point everyone else seems to be making - Have they really been taught sufficiently to be fully responsible?
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kaysette
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Good point. My kids used to do something similar when I said “No” to their requests to go somewhere that would be bad for them. “Johnny’s mom is letting HIM go…I wish I had Johnny’s mom!!”
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rlg94086
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That is true, but once you are in the “pick a church, any church” mode, you will find one whose rules suit you. Besides, most Protestant churches are less restrictive on the Church teaching people struggle with the most: contraception and divorce (and homosexuality for those with SSA).
At faith formation a couple of weeks ago, our priest was discussing marriage and annulments, and at our table the woman across from us was squirming and holding in anger. Hmm…maybe divorced? On contraception, a lot of Catholics just decide “the Church is wrong, and they will never know what I do in privacy.”
Rules are fine, if you agree with them. If you don’t, well you just decide the Church is wrong and you know better.
It is a sad situation, but all you can do is pray that others will grow in their faith and understanding.
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Le_Cracquere
Guest
I agree entirely, and this is me talking. I might never intellectually follow or like the Church’s teachings on contraception–if you like children, the arguments will seem compelling, and if you don’t, they won’t. But intellectual and temperamental objections aren’t inconsistent with a Catholic’s obediently “embracing the church’s authority and teachings”; if I become a Catholic, that’ll be the deal, which I must take or leave, but not play games with. As a convert, I might never make a very convincing or wholehearted apologist for the Church’s sexual teachings–but I can agree to Her right to promulgate them, refrain from undercutting them in public forums, and pray that obedience and assent can one day turn into sincere comprehension and appreciation. Hannity’s capable of the same.
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kaysette
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Ummm…isn’t that referred to as “itching ears?”:ehh:
I think that is what I have had most of my life…
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kaysette
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That’s kind of scary. How can a person be a true believer and not like children? I would think if someone didn’t like children, they better “make their calling and election sure” because Jesus said “Suffer the children to come unto me” and “of such are the Kingdom of God,” didn’t he?
Why would a believer not like children? Because they are a lot of work? Because they interfere with their sleep? Because they won’t have so much money for themselves? Or because they cannot take so many vacations or go out on Sat. night? Could it be they want to watch what they want to watch on TV? Maybe they can’t bear the thought of making more medical bills? Or because they are not worth all the PAIN and suffering? (Childbirth HURTS!) Maybe they don’t like stretch marks? Or don’t want to change their sexy body? Maybe they will interfere with their desired amount of sexual activity? They hate school plays and programs?
OUCH OUCH OUCH…I just listed some of our own reasons for saying “no” to more babies.
uch:“Oh yes, Lord…I will DO anything for you…just say the Word…just don’t make me have more kids…”
I am just so ashamed of the pitiful excuse I have been for a Christian.
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Le_Cracquere
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That’s a lot of questions packed into a brief post–I salute you! Guess I’ll address them as best I can:
But the point I was making was this: whatever my native inclinations against children, should I become a Catholic, I intend to swallow my personal druthers, follow the Church’s sexual guidelines, not carp against those guidelines, and let the chips fall where they may–by God’s abundant grace, Junior might even reach adulthood reasonably unscathed in mind and body. As you might be able to infer from the above, all these are pretty major concessions for me, or at least feel that way. And the point is, surely a Sean Hannity, who appears to like children just fine, can concede at least as much to the Church. Q.E.D.
At the risk of being a smart-aleck, the way I’m doing it now as I type. It’s like perfect pitch–hard to explain to someone who wasn’t born with it.
I’ll assume you’re not asking the first question in a Calvinist sense–otherwise, it obviously wouldn’t matter w/r/t my predetermined electedness what I made sure of or didn’t. Suffice it to say, the children can come to Jesus all the livelong day, as far as I’m concerned. It’s their coming unto me that tends to make my flesh crawl.
What a fool I’ve been. The whole thing sounds like a ball, now that you’ve described it. :dancing: No, leaving aside any effect they might have on their parents’ lives, I tend to find them deeply, radically unpleasant as people, with vanishingly few exceptions. And the science of probability theory tells me that my child is unlikely to be such an exception.
But the point I was making was this: whatever my native inclinations against children, should I become a Catholic, I intend to swallow my personal druthers, follow the Church’s sexual guidelines, not carp against those guidelines, and let the chips fall where they may–by God’s abundant grace, Junior might even reach adulthood reasonably unscathed in mind and body. As you might be able to infer from the above, all these are pretty major concessions for me, or at least feel that way. And the point is, surely a Sean Hannity, who appears to like children just fine, can concede at least as much to the Church. Q.E.D.
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kaysette
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You are painfully honest.
I suspect if you join the church and concede to walk in her precepts, it would be someone like YOU who would find the most joy and reward for having been obedient.
I suspect if you join the church and concede to walk in her precepts, it would be someone like YOU who would find the most joy and reward for having been obedient.
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Le_Cracquere
Guest
Well, painful honesty for painful flaws.You are painfully honest.
I suspect if you join the church and concede to walk in her precepts, it would be someone like YOU who would find the most joy and reward for having been obedient.
Many thanks–hope you’re right, and may the same turn out true for you.
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Delphinus85
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i really hate the term “love killer” I am in line with the catholic teaching, but I know a lot of protestant christian homes that use one form of contraception or another, and those couples could not be more in love and selfless in their marriage. Also, what about folks like one of my friends who has to take birth control for medical purposes?? I am amoung that group. I have a friend who has problems with her endometrium, that if she lets her body try to have a normal cycle, the PCOS in conjunction with endometium where it shouldn’t be, causes her heart to go on the fritz, and she has to go in to the hospital, and there is a chance it could be lethal. Birth control is keeping her alive. The only option she would have otherwise is a hysterectomy, but she refuses because she wants kids more than anything. Her and her husband have a great marriage, and they are working hard to find ways to have children in the future. Also, while my case isn’t as bad as hers I too take birth control for medical reasons. Neither of us welcome the sterility of it, but it beats the alternative.
I just think that while the church teaches that birth control is immoral, we can NOT pass judgement on other people’s marriages. We don’t know their reasons for postponing pregnancy, or why they are even using ABC. I think we need to ficus more on loving one another.
I just think that while the church teaches that birth control is immoral, we can NOT pass judgement on other people’s marriages. We don’t know their reasons for postponing pregnancy, or why they are even using ABC. I think we need to ficus more on loving one another.
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