contraception vs abortion

[Michel2010]

Tell me the relevance then. ALL mortal sin separates us from God.
There is no point in a person sitting at home feeling smug thinking oh well I’m in a state of mortal sin but my mortal sin is not as grave as others!

For example, if somebody is able to prevent only one of the following grave evils : a murder or a $2000 theft, he must know which one is the gravest. A legislator or a judge must often know if a grave evil is graver than an other one.

 

[thistle]

For example, if somebody is able to prevent only one of the following grave evils : a murder or a $2000 theft, he must know which one is the gravest. A legislator or a judge must often know if a grave evil is graver than an other one.

What is your point? I ask again. What difference does it make if a person in a state of mortal sin has committed the least grave mortal sin. None because most grave or least grave still sends them to Hell if they die in that state.

 

[Michel2010]

St-Thomas Aquinas, IaIIae, Question 73. The comparison of one sin with another:

newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm

 

[marymary1975]

Women on the pill do not ovulate frequently. Most sources I found say about it’s about 3% of all cycles (across the whole population). EWTN says 2% to 10%, but that probably includes women on progestin-only pills, which have a higher rate of breakthrough ovulation than the much more common combination pills. Also, the “periods” you experience while on the pill are not tied to ovulation and absolutely are not abortions except in very rare occassions. They’re caused by the sudden drop in estrogen when you switch to the placebo pills in the last week of the month.

Just to review: Even if we give EWTN the benefit of the doubt and use its numbers for the breakthrough ovulation rate, you’re looking at ovulation in somewhere around 6% of all cycles. That means 94% of the time the pill works by preventing ovulation. (i.e.while it can act as an abortifacient in rare cases, you are completely wrong to say it is primarily an abortifacient.

Second, as you mentioned, there are three effects in action. So even in those 6% of cases were ovulation occurs, there will still be many instances in which the thickened mucus blocks sperm from entering the fallopian tubes. So we’re down to maybe 3% of cases in which there’s even a possibility of an egg and sperm ever meeting?

And WebMD says the chance of getting pregnant in any given month (when trying) is about 25%. So that would bring us down to about a 0.75% chance of the abortifacient issue coming up.

Depo Provera uses exactly the same three-prong approach as the pill and hormonal IUDs.

Please do some research before you start posting things like this online.

What you are writing is not correct. First as to Depo provera I was on Depo provera for four years (so no I don’t need research on it I WAS on it) and I never EVER had a period in four years in fact if I total the amount of time I did not have a period was over five years because I did not get back my period until about 18 months after coming out of the depo. I know how the depo works perfect fly because I was on it and I because I took it due to endometrosis. Depo does not uses the same three prong approach as the pill and the IUD. That is false information. In all case you should do more information before posting that because it is not true.

The pill, I know several women that are on the pill including women I have lived with. They do get periods! In fact it is not uncommon for women on the pill to have periods heavier than normal. In fact have you ever read the info that comes along with the pill? It says on those little letters that heavy periods are a “common side effect” of the period. 3% means 3 periods out of ten months. I know women who get it every other month. Some get it once every two months. A bleeding like the one you mention not related to ovulation is not the one that women on the pill usually get because it is a very distinctive bleeding (not to get into TMI) much lighter, women on the pill do get actual bleeding and as I said even the package itself warns about extremely heavy periods (which will happen if you are having sex) which in reality are chemical abortions. Again probably you need to talk more to women and actually read the label that comes with the pill.

If it was true that the pill work 94% of the time preventing ovulation women on the pill would barely get periods and would be more similar to a Norplant implant. That is not true. Depo provera do works preventing periods and you know how many period you get…0! None! I’m fact you don’t even get periods after getting out of it. Also note that the label that comes with the pill states clearly that “it is not know” which percentage of the time any of these three prongs would happen soooo how do you know that is 94% when the medication itself is telling you that NO ONE knows how it will work and it is random?

The 25% chance of getting pregnant is actually its failure rate. The pill has a 25% failure rate (some argue 30 but lets go with what they recognize) meaning pregnancies that survive the effects and do get to implant and continue. That 25% is not the conception rate is women that end up with a developing embryo implanted. If it is true that the pill indeed works 94% preventing ovulation, why does it have such a big failure rate? If you are not ovulating you shouldn’t get pregnant and pregnancy on the pill is not uncommon at all.

The pill it is an abortifacient. You need to read more what the label actually says.

 

[thistle]

St-Thomas Aquinas, IaIIae, Question 73. The comparison of one sin with another:

newadvent.org/summa/2073.htm

You still have not answered my question. What difference does it make if one mortal sin is graver than another when ANY mortal sin (more or less grave) will send you to Hell if you die in that state.
We should be trying to avoid mortal sin completely and not sit around thinking its not so bad if I only commit this particular mortal sin because its not so grave as others.
ALL mortal sin separates us from God.

 

[QuasiCatholic]

What you are writing is not correct. First as to Depo provera I was on Depo provera for four years (so no I don’t need research on it I WAS on it) and I never EVER had a period in four years in fact if I total the amount of time I did not have a period was over five years because I did not get back my period until about 18 months after coming out of the depo. I know how the depo works perfect fly because I was on it and I because I took it due to endometrosis. Depo does not uses the same three prong approach as the pill and the IUD. …
The pill, I know several women that are on the pill including women I have lived with. They do get periods! In fact it is not uncommon for women on the pill to have periods heavier than normal. In fact have you ever read the info that comes along with the pill? It says on those little letters that heavy periods are a “common side effect” of the period. 3% means 3 periods out of ten months. …

The 25% chance of getting pregnant is actually its failure rate. The pill has a 25% failure rate (some argue 30 but lets go with what they recognize) meaning pregnancies that survive the effects and do get to implant and continue. That 25% is not the conception rate is women that end up with a developing embryo implanted. If it is true that the pill indeed works 94% preventing ovulation, why does it have such a big failure rate?

There are so many inaccuracies in this post I can’t even begin to respond to them all. But let’s start with the depo provera thing. Perhaps these excerpts will help you see that you are incorrect about how it works:

From drugs.com: Depo-Provera (medroxyprogesterone) is a form of progesterone, a female hormone that prevents ovulation (the release of an eggfrom an ovary). **This medication also causes changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, **making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.

From Human Life International (a Christian pro-life website): The Depo-Provera injection is a type of hormonal anti-fertility drug that** works at times as a contraceptive, but also sometimes as an abortifacient**, a drug that causes abortion in some instances. … The patient information insert for Depo-Provera, however, says that it also “inhibits the secretion of gonadotropins which, in turn, prevents follicular maturation and ovulation **and results in endometrial thinning.” When the endometrium, the lining of the uterus, is thinned, it is rendered hostile to implantation. **

The official patient information from Pfizer can be found here: accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2010/020246s036lbl.pdf Search for “endometrial thinning” and you will see it is in fact included under “Mechanism of Action.”

**Still not convinced? Maybe you’ll listen to the Catholic Register: **ncregister.com/site/article/an_analysis_of_depo_provera/
Contraceptive Technology confirms that Depo-Provera has a triphasic (three-way) action. It inhibits ovulation and thickens cervical mucus (which are both contraceptive actions), but it also alters the endometrium (the lining of the uterus) so that its degree of receptivity to the blastocyst (very early developing human being) is significantly decreased. According to Contraceptive Technology, “Other contraceptive actions include the development of a shallow and atrophic [thinning] endometrium….’

As to what you said about periods while on the pill, I’ll just point out again that the monthly bleeding while on the pill is caused by the week of “placebo” pills that don’t have any hormones in them and has nothing to do with some kind of chemical abortion.

The rest is just nonsense. 3% for example, would be three periods out of 100, not 3 out of 10. And the fail rate for the pill is nowhere near 25%. It’s like …5 percent, I think. The 25% statistic is in fact the conception rate for couples trying to conceive in any given month, as I previously stated.

Seriously, do some research.

 

[marymary1975]

There are so many inaccuracies in this post I can’t even begin to respond to them all. But let’s start with the depo provera thing. Perhaps these excerpts will help you see that you are incorrect about how it works:

From drugs.com: Depo-Provera (medroxyprogesterone) is a form of progesterone, a female hormone that prevents ovulation (the release of an eggfrom an ovary). **This medication also causes changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, **making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.

From Human Life International (a Christian pro-life website): The Depo-Provera injection is a type of hormonal anti-fertility drug that** works at times as a contraceptive, but also sometimes as an abortifacient**, a drug that causes abortion in some instances. … The patient information insert for Depo-Provera, however, says that it also “inhibits the secretion of gonadotropins which, in turn, prevents follicular maturation and ovulation **and results in endometrial thinning.” When the endometrium, the lining of the uterus, is thinned, it is rendered hostile to implantation. **

The official patient information from Pfizer can be found here: accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2010/020246s036lbl.pdf Search for “endometrial thinning” and you will see it is in fact included under “Mechanism of Action.”

**Still not convinced? Maybe you’ll listen to the Catholic Register: **ncregister.com/site/article/an_analysis_of_depo_provera/
Contraceptive Technology confirms that Depo-Provera has a triphasic (three-way) action. It inhibits ovulation and thickens cervical mucus (which are both contraceptive actions), but it also alters the endometrium (the lining of the uterus) so that its degree of receptivity to the blastocyst (very early developing human being) is significantly decreased. According to Contraceptive Technology, “Other contraceptive actions include the development of a shallow and atrophic [thinning] endometrium….’

As to what you said about periods while on the pill, I’ll just point out again that the monthly bleeding while on the pill is caused by the week of “placebo” pills that don’t have any hormones in them and has nothing to do with some kind of chemical abortion.

The rest is just nonsense. 3% for example, would be three periods out of 100, not 3 out of 10. And the fail rate for the pill is nowhere near 25%. It’s like …5 percent, I think. The 25% statistic is in fact the conception rate for couples trying to conceive in any given month, as I previously stated.

Seriously, do some research.

Ehhh so then if women in Depo do ovulate…why there is no periods?? What happens to the periods? Do they magically become invisible or does Depo also turns blood into air??

Again I don’t need articles on Depo because I WAS ON IT. I used it and got the shot every three months. Women on the full depo provera don’t ovulate. Depo provera blocks ovulationin its entirety. Of course when ovulation doesn’t occur the linen of the uterus doesn’t grow (hence why it is used for severe cases of endometrosis). The not growing of the uterus is basically a consequence of the body not ovulating. That is not what happens with the pill. With the pill the body does ovulate but when it ovulates the pill blocks the growing of linning hence why you do have periods on the pill.

Are you male or female? Have you ever been on the pill to affirm that what you get during the pill the hormonal bleeding (which again is very distinctive to the actual bleeding that most women on the pill experience)?

 

[marymary1975]

There are so many inaccuracies in this post I can’t even begin to respond to them all. But let’s start with the depo provera thing. Perhaps these excerpts will help you see that you are incorrect about how it works:

From drugs.com: Depo-Provera (medroxyprogesterone) is a form of progesterone, a female hormone that prevents ovulation (the release of an eggfrom an ovary). **This medication also causes changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, **making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.

From Human Life International (a Christian pro-life website): The Depo-Provera injection is a type of hormonal anti-fertility drug that** works at times as a contraceptive, but also sometimes as an abortifacient**, a drug that causes abortion in some instances. … The patient information insert for Depo-Provera, however, says that it also “inhibits the secretion of gonadotropins which, in turn, prevents follicular maturation and ovulation **and results in endometrial thinning.” When the endometrium, the lining of the uterus, is thinned, it is rendered hostile to implantation. **

The official patient information from Pfizer can be found here: accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2010/020246s036lbl.pdf Search for “endometrial thinning” and you will see it is in fact included under “Mechanism of Action.”

**Still not convinced? Maybe you’ll listen to the Catholic Register: **ncregister.com/site/article/an_analysis_of_depo_provera/
Contraceptive Technology confirms that Depo-Provera has a triphasic (three-way) action. It inhibits ovulation and thickens cervical mucus (which are both contraceptive actions), but it also alters the endometrium (the lining of the uterus) so that its degree of receptivity to the blastocyst (very early developing human being) is significantly decreased. According to Contraceptive Technology, “Other contraceptive actions include the development of a shallow and atrophic [thinning] endometrium….’

.

Oh and if indeed that is how Depo provers works why if a woman gets out of Depo it will take her from 18 months to 22 months (almost two years) to start ovulating again? Is it that when you are on it you ovulate but miraculously when you come out of it ovulation stops?

 

[QuasiCatholic]

women on the pill get period-like bleeding every month. This is not due to ovulation.

Some women who aren’t on the pill don’t ovulate every month. Many of them still get bleeding.

Period bleeding and ovulation are related but not always directly linked because there are multiple hormones at work.

Depo provera, just like the pill, is not 100% effective at preventing pregnancy, and many people still do get period while on it (again, not a sign of ovulation, just how our bodies work)

Maybe this website will help you youngwomenshealth.org/2011/07/01/depo-provera/

Otherwise talk to your dr. You don’t seem to understand basic aspects of women’s reproductive health

 

[Rau]

…For all we know the children killed in abortion could suffer an eternity of torment and death in hell.

Since that outcome would be attributable not at all to the soul concerned, but to God (and the parents), you appear to have a harsh view of God.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Abortion is a more serious sin than mere contraception. Deliberately depriving an innocent person of life is more gravely disordered that deliberately depriving sexual acts of their procreative meaning. The fact that the prenatal killed by abortion at least was able to exist and live a short time has no bearing on the morality of the choice to abort.

However, abortifacient contraception, over time, may result in more than one abortion, adding to its gravity as time passes. And abortifacient contraception has possibly killed as many, or perhaps more prenatals as surgical abortion.

About 40 million prenatals are killed by abortion each year worldwide. That’s 1 billion every 25 years. And abortifacient contraception might possibly double that number.

If abortion is both murder and, society wide, a type of genocide, then so too is abortifacient contraception.

 

[on_the_hill]

3% means 3 periods out of ten months.

Maybe you have a typo. 3% would be 3 out of 100. 30% means 3 out of 10.

The pill has a 25% failure rate

Is that 25% out of the entire population of women using it? In other words, if 100 women are taking the pill, 25 will get pregnant over some given time?

Or does that 25% mean if a woman is taking the pill she has a 1 in 4 chance of getting pregnant each time she has sex?

 

[AnnieHall]

The pill, I know several women that are on the pill including women I have lived with. They do get periods! In fact it is not uncommon for women on the pill to have periods heavier than normal. In fact have you ever read the info that comes along with the pill? It says on those little letters that heavy periods are a “common side effect” of the period. 3% means 3 periods out of ten months. I know women who get it every other month. Some get it once every two months. A bleeding like the one you mention not related to ovulation is not the one that women on the pill usually get because it is a very distinctive bleeding (not to get into TMI) much lighter, women on the pill do get actual bleeding and as I said even the package itself warns about extremely heavy periods (which will happen if you are having sex) which in reality are chemical abortions. Again probably you need to talk more to women and actually read the label that comes with the pill.

Ehhh so then if women in Depo do ovulate…why there is no periods?? What happens to the periods? Do they magically become invisible or does Depo also turns blood into air??

Again I don’t need articles on Depo because I WAS ON IT. I used it and got the shot every three months. Women on the full depo provera don’t ovulate. Depo provera blocks ovulationin its entirety. Of course when ovulation doesn’t occur the linen of the uterus doesn’t grow (hence why it is used for severe cases of endometrosis). The not growing of the uterus is basically a consequence of the body not ovulating. That is not what happens with the pill. With the pill the body does ovulate but when it ovulates the pill blocks the growing of linning hence why you do have periods on the pill.

Are you male or female? Have you ever been on the pill to affirm that what you get during the pill the hormonal bleeding (which again is very distinctive to the actual bleeding that most women on the pill experience)?

Just went through the info pack that came with my rx, nothing is listed about getting heavier periods, in fact one health benefit listed is “blood flow during menstruation may be lighter and less iron may be lost. Therefore, anemia due to iron deficiency is less likely to occur.” Also listed there, just as an fyi - “menstrual cycles may become more regular”

And, my personal favorite (for those who may be curious why I have this rx…) “pain or other symptoms during menstruation may be encountered less frequently”

I know there are different pills out there, and every body will react differently to different formulations, but I’ve never talked with anyone on the pill whose cycle becomes less predictable. Usually ones who naturally have cycles once every other month or more or less often find more predictability if they go on the pill, it’s one of the benefits and one reason why some may chose to try it. I also think that it’s pretty common knowledge that taking the pill works by using hormones that will usually keep women from ovulating (not 100% but I think it’s widely accepted to be true more often than not). The hormones also affect the uterine lining and the cervical mucus (physically lessening the likelihood that sperm can make it any further).

I personally never noticed a difference in “heaviness” or anything along those lines, and none of my friends have ever mentioned anything other than that it tends to go lighter than before they went on - even my friends who use the pill for it’s more widely known purposes. Also, I thought it was fairly commonly known that to skip your visitor for the month, you can just skip the dummy week of pills - this is how the Seasonique pill works (where you will get your cycle 4 times a year, instead of 12. It just gives you the hormones more continuously than the standard pill). I’m imaging is similar to how the Depo shot works, more of a continued dose of whatever the hormones are, although I’ll admit I’m not very familiar with that.

 

[Michel2010]

**
Re: Is contraception more evil than abortion?**

The morality of any act, and its gravity (degree of sinfulness) is determined by the three fonts of morality.

1. intention
2. moral object
   3, circumstances (esp. consequences)

For this question, let’s set aside intention and circumstances, and only consider whether the moral object of contraception is more or less gravely disordered than abortion. Also, let’s consider only contraception per se (not abortifacient contraception).

The Church teaches that contraception and abortion are each objectively a mortal sin.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=99718&page=4However, one mortal sin can be more serious than another mortal sin, because one mortal sin can be more thoroughly contrary to the love of God, and the love of neighbor as yourself, that is the basis for morality.

Direct abortion is a type of murder; it is the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being. Such an act is very thoroughly contrary to the love of neighbor, especially since this particular neighbor is about as innocent as a human being can be.

Contraception is morally disordered because it is a sexual act which lacks the procreative meaning. The moral object is deprived of a good which God requires to be present, the procreative meaning of the sexual act.

The moral object of murder is the deprivation of life from an innocent, whereas the moral object of a contracepted sexual act is the deprivation of the procreative meaning. Since the life of an innocent person is a greater good than the procreative meaning of a sexual act, the moral object of abortion (a type of murder) has a greater degree of moral disorder and therefore is a more serious mortal sin…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=99718&page=4