Contraception vs. Natural Family Planning

[Rau]

Premise 2 that: “There is **no obligation **to choose times when pregnancy is more likely.”

Agreed

There can be an obligation that is willingly accepted and I do not call that compulsion.

Not sure where the obligation comes from, unless you are referring to a request from one member of the couple. That does not seem to be the issue under discussion though. I assume the couple are acting harmoniously.

However you may be using compulsion as a synonym for obligation as in something forced against the will. The words have different connotations. My additional comment in that post was without regard to fertility: “Also, some instances of refusing the request of conjugal relations would be unjustified.”

Again, I assume the couple are acting harmoniously.

For the issue “I’m fertile and don’t have a reason to refrain” is not the point I made. So this is a not-starter. What I wrote was; “To not have that intention [of NFP] means that ***when ***choosing times some must be thought to be more fertile.”

Which may in fact be happenstance - who said the couple are charting and/or aware of their fertility?

The logic that defines avoidance for a month is if there are any conjugal acts in a month, and it is the intent is to avoid pregnancy for that month, and no acts in that month are in times thought to be fertile.

Not sure of your point.

In summary:
One may use NFP with good reason.
When no good reason (and not actively seeking pregnancy), one may (perhaps - logically does) abandon NFP.
Abandoning NFP does not mean deliberately choosing sex while likely fertile.

My point remains - and you have not found fault with it - No couple is ever compelled or obligated to choose sex when/because they are fertile. They may not desire sex at such a time and/or they may be unaware when such time has arisen.

I suspect you are limiting possible outcomes by imagining that the couple always knows their fertility (eg. charts persistently). In which case, a time will come when they will likely find themselves desiring and considering sex when they know they are likely fertile - they will be faced with an “avoid” or “not avoid” moment. But as I have explained above and in earlier posts, that need not arise eg. they may abandon charting. In which case, their knowledge of their own fertility oscillates over various levels of fuzziness. If they have sex while fertile, it results from a willing choice or happenstance, not any obligation.

 

[Rico_S]

My point remains - and you have not found fault with it - No couple is ever compelled or obligated to choose sex when/because they are fertile. They may not desire sex at such a time and/or they may be unaware when such time has arisen.

Just to muddy the waters even further…

Perhaps its a bad example, but humor me. Let’s say we have a couple who doesn’t have sufficient reason to intentionally avoid. They don’t really practice NFP, but their preference is to only have sex in the 3rd phase of the wife’s cycle b/c of something unrelated to getting pregnant. Perhaps it is a mucus consistency/ friction thing, or something along those lines. (You can use your imagination here, hopefully, and not simply say, “I can’t imagination this ever happening so its pointless”). Their sex drive is low enough that the few times they can be intimate in the 3rd phase each month fulfills each of their needs. This must be moral, correct? b/c a couple is never obligated to have sex while fertile.

 

[Xantippe]

Just to muddy the waters even further…

Perhaps its a bad example, but humor me. Let’s say we have a couple who doesn’t have sufficient reason to intentionally avoid. They don’t really practice NFP, but their preference is to only have sex in the 3rd phase of the wife’s cycle b/c of something unrelated to getting pregnant. Perhaps it is a mucus consistency/ friction thing, or something along those lines. (You can use your imagination here, hopefully, and not simply say, “I can’t imagination this ever happening so its pointless”). Their sex drive is low enough that the few times they can be intimate in the 3rd phase each month fulfills each of their needs. This must be moral, correct? b/c a couple is never obligated to have sex while fertile.

Well, why not?

Marital sex isn’t homework.

Ideally, at some point they would put more effort into actually trying for a child, but I don’t think they have a duty on any particular fertile day to have marital relations (barring some sort of issue you haven’t mentioned).

 

[Rico_S]

Ideally, at some point they would put more effort into actually trying for a child,

Yes, totally agree…but is it sinful if they don’t eventually do so? They aren’t contracepting nor intentionally avoiding fertile times to avoid pregnancy.

but I don’t think they have a duty on any particular fertile day to have marital relations

No. But do they have a duty to have marital relations on some fertile day?

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, totally agree…but is it sinful if they don’t eventually do so? They aren’t contracepting nor intentionally avoiding fertile times to avoid pregnancy.

No. But do they have a duty to have marital relations on some fertile day?

Presumably, assuming no serious reasons.

But there’s no particular day when not doing so would be a sin. (Which is kind of paradoxical.)

 

[oolaloola]

We’ve been using NFP for about six months now, using the Creighton model and it’s been the most frustrating time of my life. Due to the certainty of life-threatening pregnancies, I cannot have any more children. I don’t understand why we cannot have a permanent solution, i.e. sterilization, rather than years of this until I reach menopause. This is where I understand what the Church is saying about condoms/contraceptives, but it ultimately has not helped my peace of mind, my relationship with my husband or my Faith but made everything worse. I’ve never felt so much anger towards the CC and myself before.

 

[Xantippe]

We’ve been using NFP for about six months now, using the Creighton model and it’s been the most frustrating time of my life. Due to the certainty of life-threatening pregnancies, I cannot have any more children. I don’t understand why we cannot have a permanent solution, i.e. sterilization, rather than years of this until I reach menopause. This is where I understand what the Church is saying about condoms/contraceptives, but it ultimately has not helped my peace of mind, my relationship with my husband or my Faith but made everything worse. I’ve never felt so much anger towards the CC and myself before.

I feel like your situation is probably way more common in real life than the low libido Phase 3 only couple that a previous poster described.

 

[Rico_S]

Presumably, assuming no serious reasons.

But there’s no particular day when not doing so would be a sin. (Which is kind of paradoxical.)

Yes. When discussing/defending NFP on CAF, the narrative points toward the fact that NFP is different b/c it is simply short term abstinance and the Church doesn’t tell us when we have to have sex. But, when the primary end of marriage is procreation and raising of children, it appears that the Church cannot condone the exclusive use of non-fertile times (without justification)–the Church has to teach that we must have sex during fertile times at least at some point. So I think the whole approach of those that maintain “church doesn’t tell us when to have sex” doesn’t nestle well with the rest of the teachings on marriage.

 

[Rico_S]

I feel like your situation is probably way more common in real life than the low libido Phase 3 only couple that a previous poster described.

Totally agree. I feel for that poster. I also believe that there will be further development and understanding of the church’s teaching in this area in the future. (not talking our lifetime, most likely, the church develops things slowly).

 

[Xantippe]

Yes. When discussing/defending NFP on CAF, the narrative points toward the fact that NFP is different b/c it is simply short term abstinance and the Church doesn’t tell us when we have to have sex. But, when the primary end of marriage is procreation and raising of children, it appears that the Church cannot condone the exclusive use of non-fertile times (without justification)–the Church has to teach that we must have sex during fertile times at least at some point. So I think the whole approach of those that maintain “church doesn’t tell us when to have sex” doesn’t nestle well with the rest of the teachings on marriage.

But it’s not actually true that the couple has to have sex during fertile times at some point–there could be continuing serious reasons for them not to do that, or the woman could be simply too old.

Also, I think you’d find a hard time locating your hypothetical childless no-serious-reasons Phase 3 only couple in real life. The average NFP couple tends to have at least one or two “bonus” kids (but couples that use birth control often do, too) and as others have often noted on CAF, the motivation level to stick to strict NFP tends to move in tandem with the seriousness of reasons to abstain.

 

[Kelfa28]

We’ve been using NFP for about six months now, using the Creighton model and it’s been the most frustrating time of my life. Due to the certainty of life-threatening pregnancies, I cannot have any more children. I df this until I reach menopause. This is where I understand what the Church is saying about condoms/contraceptives, but it ultimately has not helped my peace of mind, my relationship with my husband or my Faith but made everything worse. I’ve never felt so much anger towards the CC and myself before.

I’m in the same position as you…suffice to say that my husband and I are DONE having children.

Three back to back pregnancies, tough pregnancies and both of us are unemployed? We’re done.
I drank*the kool-aid about NFP. The Kool-Aid that CCL forces on couples that it’s this wonderful, magical thing that improves your marriage and makes everything just rainbows and butterflies.

It’s not. It’s stressful and almost unrealistic to abide by. It limits my green-lit days to less then 10 a month. That’s ridiculous.
It forces you to abstain during times when you want your husband the most. Also ridiculous.

And finally, it assures you that if you nurse…you won’t have cycles for an extended period of time and offers no assurance or alternatives for women it doesn’t work for except an excuse that amounts to “you’re nursing your baby wrong”.

I bought that Kool-aid and I’m paying for it now. I actually agree with the Church teachings but am totally baffled that the Church isn’t doing much to actually help out couples who seriously need it.

The Church claims it’s the only alternative to planning your family…and for some that’s life or death…and what does the Church offer?
Well for our diocese it’s some pamphlets, a brief 15 minute segment about NFP during pre-marriage classes and exactly one couple that instructs NFP on occasion…for the entire diocese….and only teaches STM…a method that isn’t practical for most couples because it relies on precise temp readings that moms with big families and young children can’t rely on obtaining every day.
The nearest NaPro doctor for me? Over 2 hours away. Totally out of the question for someone with young babies and a busy schedule….and isn’t covered by our insurance (I checked) and Marquette requires you to buy this $200 minimum monitor that doesn’t include strips. Not a possibility for couples just barely scraping by.

It’s a travesty. It’s wrong and it forces couples to make some seriously desperate decisions.

Why shouldn’t I get sterilized? It’s cheaper (insurance would pay for it all) and it would solve all of my issues with pregnancies that could seriously effect my health and it wouldn’t do a thing to effect my marriage. In fact…it would take all the stress I had on me every single month when it came to practicing NFP (I was so afraid on whether I had conceived each month I was scraping money together for pregnancy tests and driving my husband nuts about phantom pregnancy symptoms I thought I had…until it didn’t matter anymore because I was pregnant anyway).

Why don’t I get sterilized? Because it’s wrong. The Church says it’s wrong. So I pray every day that I have the strength to listen to God and bear that Cross.
Some days I feel okay…and others…I just don’t and I don’t care and plan to do it anyway.

I wish it were easier. That my husband was working a job that paid well and I could stay home and not worry about money. That my pregnancies weren’t so hard on me. That nursing kept my cycles away so I could have an actual break from worrying about conceiving so soon after I give birth (within one month). That mothering my children was a little less difficult and stressful.
But it’s not easier…it gets harder and harder…and harder and harder to swallow what everyone seems to think about NFP.

If BC and sterilization are so wrong….why isn’t the Church singing this from the roof-tops and giving everything it has to help couples who are desperate for help?

 

[oolaloola]

I’m in the same position as you…suffice to say that my husband and I are DONE having children.

Three back to back pregnancies, tough pregnancies and both of us are unemployed? We’re done.
I drank*the kool-aid about NFP. The Kool-Aid that CCL forces on couples that it’s this wonderful, magical thing that improves your marriage and makes everything just rainbows and butterflies.

It’s not. It’s stressful and almost unrealistic to abide by. It limits my green-lit days to less then 10 a month. That’s ridiculous.
It forces you to abstain during times when you want your husband the most. Also ridiculous.

And finally, it assures you that if you nurse…you won’t have cycles for an extended period of time and offers no assurance or alternatives for women it doesn’t work for except an excuse that amounts to “you’re nursing your baby wrong”.

I bought that Kool-aid and I’m paying for it now. I actually agree with the Church teachings but am totally baffled that the Church isn’t doing much to actually help out couples who seriously need it.

The Church claims it’s the only alternative to planning your family…and for some that’s life or death…and what does the Church offer?
Well for our diocese it’s some pamphlets, a brief 15 minute segment about NFP during pre-marriage classes and exactly one couple that instructs NFP on occasion…for the entire diocese….and only teaches STM…a method that isn’t practical for most couples because it relies on precise temp readings that moms with big families and young children can’t rely on obtaining every day.
The nearest NaPro doctor for me? Over 2 hours away. Totally out of the question for someone with young babies and a busy schedule….and isn’t covered by our insurance (I checked) and Marquette requires you to buy this $200 minimum monitor that doesn’t include strips. Not a possibility for couples just barely scraping by.

It’s a travesty. It’s wrong and it forces couples to make some seriously desperate decisions.

Why shouldn’t I get sterilized? It’s cheaper (insurance would pay for it all) and it would solve all of my issues with pregnancies that could seriously effect my health and it wouldn’t do a thing to effect my marriage. In fact…it would take all the stress I had on me every single month when it came to practicing NFP (I was so afraid on whether I had conceived each month I was scraping money together for pregnancy tests and driving my husband nuts about phantom pregnancy symptoms I thought I had…until it didn’t matter anymore because I was pregnant anyway).

Why don’t I get sterilized? Because it’s wrong. The Church says it’s wrong. So I pray every day that I have the strength to listen to God and bear that Cross.
Some days I feel okay…and others…I just don’t and I don’t care and plan to do it anyway.

I wish it were easier. That my husband was working a job that paid well and I could stay home and not worry about money. That my pregnancies weren’t so hard on me. That nursing kept my cycles away so I could have an actual break from worrying about conceiving so soon after I give birth (within one month). That mothering my children was a little less difficult and stressful.
But it’s not easier…it gets harder and harder…and harder and harder to swallow what everyone seems to think about NFP.

If BC and sterilization are so wrong….why isn’t the Church singing this from the roof-tops and giving everything it has to help couples who are desperate for help?

Thank you so much for your reply. It’s good to know that I’m not alone in this. I’ve been hearing over and over that the Church does not allow this or that, but in this instance I feel like a lot of it is ‘just because’ and not ‘well you have a unique situation that we will consider’. Sometimes things aren’t always black and white. I have a lot of difficulty with my cycles, so my green days are about 4-5 days out of the month. I know that seems like a lot, but it isn’t really. I also have to get my progesterone levels checked every month before we get the go ahead, so if I’ve missed when I think I’ve ovulated, we can’t do anything that month. Is it selfish of me to be angry about this? Probably. But I don’t want to do this for the next 10-15 years. I’m not that old. This is making me begin to feel like I should leave the Church, since I’m going to spend 10-15 years being angry. I’m a cradle Catholic and have been devout the whole time, so this is really chewing me up.

The CC does not deem that my situation is serious enough to warrant sterilization, because I don’t have cancer or am bleeding to death. Just because I’m not dying in a heap on the hospital table, doesn’t mean that I don’t have just cause. Life threatening pregnancy is only life threatening when you are pregnant. So according to the Church, I have to be dying in order to get permission to have my life in safety. That seems very unfair. People use NFP for many different purposes, and I’m not judging them. But I would think that if I have serious reason, such as my health is in danger when I’m pregnant, surely the CC would take that into consideration rather than quote me all these writings about how immoral it is.

We have five beautiful children, so I feel like we’ve been very open to life and have proven that, but I also don’t think it’s responsible for me to sacrifice my life/my unborn baby’s life so that the children will grow up with the possibility of not having a mother. We are called to sainthood, but we are also responsible for our own lives. Am I being selfish about the whole thing?

 

[Kelfa28]

Thank you so much for your reply. It’s good to know that I’m not alone in this. I’ve been hearing over and over that the Church does not allow this or that, but in this instance I feel like a lot of it is ‘just because’ and not ‘well you have a unique situation that we will consider’. Sometimes things aren’t always black and white. I have a lot of difficulty with my cycles, so my green days are about 4-5 days out of the month. I know that seems like a lot, but it isn’t really. I also have to get my progesterone levels checked every month before we get the go ahead, so if I’ve missed when I think I’ve ovulated, we can’t do anything that month. Is it selfish of me to be angry about this? Probably. But I don’t want to do this for the next 10-15 years. I’m not that old. This is making me begin to feel like I should leave the Church, since I’m going to spend 10-15 years being angry. I’m a cradle Catholic and have been devout the whole time, so this is really chewing me up.

I’ve only been a Catholic for about 4 years now. I really do agree with the Church teachings on all forms of birth control.
I hated birth control. I would never go back on it. I agree with why the Church says it’s wrong.

I just wish that there was more out there on NFP and more resources for the laity. It’s a serious issue that pertains to a vast majority of Catholics…the ones that are married.

I really doubt there are a surplus of couples out there that use NFP for selfish reasons. NFP is seriously difficult in practice. Especially when it comes to abstaining during the time of the month when you want to be intimate with your spouse the most.
It’s also seriously difficult to practice when you do the math and realize that the amount of green light days for intimacy is less then a third of the entire month….or less then that.

It’s also stressful when you have a serious (or just…or whatever the terminology is) reason to abstain but you want to be intimate with your husband because it’s a good and holy thing to do….and you aren’t entirely sure what your cycle is doing…and you fear you made a mistake and now you could be pregnant.

 

[oolaloola]

I just wanted to add that when I say it is life threatening, each pregnancy has been more difficult than the last. The last pregnancy, I developed HELLP when I was six months along, which is rare apparently. My liver was rupturing, I was bleeding internally and my blood was clotting. My baby was born three months early, and had to be in the NICU because of ME! I would never want to go through that again, or put my baby through that. The high risk doctors said that because I developed HELLP so early, there was a serious chance that it would happen again, and be worse. Does it mean that I will die if it were to happen again? No one can say that will occur. So I don’t know if I’m being selfish about something that might not happen, or if I’m being responsible. I feel like the CC is telling me that I’m being selfish by avoiding being in this situation again.

 

[Kelfa28]

I just wanted to add that when I say it is life threatening, each pregnancy has been more difficult than the last. The last pregnancy, I developed HELLP when I was six months along, which is rare apparently. My liver was rupturing, I was bleeding internally and my blood was clotting. My baby was born three months early, and had to be in the NICU because of ME! I would never want to go through that again, or put my baby through that. The high risk doctors said that because I developed HELLP so early, there was a serious chance that it would happen again, and be worse. Does it mean that I will die if it were to happen again? No one can say that will occur. So I don’t know if I’m being selfish about something that might not happen, or if I’m being responsible. I feel like the CC is telling me that I’m being selfish by avoiding being in this situation again.

You are not being selfish for wanting to protect yourself against something like this again. Any sane doctor or Priest would tell you as such.

While nowhere near as serious as what you’ve been through…I’ve had gestational diabetes with 3 out of 3 pregnancies and now have discovered that this pregnancy includes a very rare abnormality that requires me to be far more closely monitored for the last half of my pregnancy.
It’s something that could result in issues for the baby…although, everything so far, seems fine.

I absolutely hate being pregnant. I hate feeling sick and tired. I hate being looked at like a test tube for 9 months. I hate all the physical pain that goes with it. I hate that I’ve had nothing but issues that pop up that make me worry about the health of my baby and the health of me more and more every day.

I’ve done it though and I love my children. But why is it so wrong for me to say I’M DONE and not feel guilty in the process. Not feel guilty that I don’t want a big family. Not feel guilty that I’m afraid to be intimate with my husband because I could wind up pregnant AGAIN for the fourth time in 4 years.

 

[oolaloola]

You are not being selfish for wanting to protect yourself against something like this again. Any sane doctor or Priest would tell you as such.

While nowhere near as serious as what you’ve been through…I’ve had gestational diabetes with 3 out of 3 pregnancies and now have discovered that this pregnancy includes a very rare abnormality that requires me to be far more closely monitored for the last half of my pregnancy.
It’s something that could result in issues for the baby…although, everything so far, seems fine.

I absolutely hate being pregnant. I hate feeling sick and tired. I hate being looked at like a test tube for 9 months. I hate all the physical pain that goes with it. I hate that I’ve had nothing but issues that pop up that make me worry about the health of my baby and the health of me more and more every day.

I’ve done it though and I love my children. But why is it so wrong for me to say I’M DONE and not feel guilty in the process. Not feel guilty that I don’t want a big family. Not feel guilty that I’m afraid to be intimate with my husband because I could wind up pregnant AGAIN for the fourth time in 4 years.

I so know what you mean. I have the gestational diabetes, too. I hate it when moms are all about "It’s beautiful having babies! I want more babies! Everyone should have babies!’ “You’re Catholic, why don’t you want more?”

I’ve even had moms who have had fertility issues to say how they resent it that I can have five babies in a row and they struggle with just one.

I do resent the other moms who have pregnancies that go smoothly. Their nine months are great; ours are like hell. I have five under five, and they have all been C-sections. It’s been horrible. But you have to go with what you’ve been given, and I don’t know exactly why that is held against me by the CC.

 

[Rau]

Yes. When discussing/defending NFP on CAF, the narrative points toward the fact that NFP is different b/c it is simply short term abstinance and the Church doesn’t tell us when we have to have sex. But, when the primary end of marriage is procreation and raising of children, it appears that the Church cannot condone the exclusive use of non-fertile times (without justification)–the Church has to teach that we must have sex during fertile times at least at some point. So I think the whole approach of those that maintain “church doesn’t tell us when to have sex” doesn’t nestle well with the rest of the teachings on marriage.

Fertile and non-fertile times are not so readily distinguished as you may imagine, as the recent discussion by oolaloola reveals. And if the couple simply stops charting, the likelihood is that any concerns about persistently avoiding children without cause will evaporate.

Regarding your hypothetical couple, it is not wrong to choose the non-fertile period for the reasons you gave, but quite separately the couple have a positive obligation to be open to life, so their current practice cannot be persistent. They need not seek out fertile times, but they should not seek out the reverse indefinitely.

 

[pianistclare]

Couple of observations:
If these instances are in regard to a married couple discerning…they should seek the advice of a good spiritual director.
Single people should wait to weigh in until they have experienced the marital embrace, and then they can have all the opinions they want, and quote all the docs they want.

It’s such a personal matter, and there are so many “factors” that folks in the internet might not fully grasp or relate to the particulars.

 

[Vico]

Agreed

Not sure where the obligation comes from, unless you are referring to a request from one member of the couple. That does not seem to be the issue under discussion though. I assume the couple are acting harmoniously.

Again, I assume the couple are acting harmoniously.

Which may in fact be happenstance - who said the couple are charting and/or aware of their fertility?

Not sure of your point.

In summary:
One may use NFP with good reason.
When no good reason (and not actively seeking pregnancy), one may (perhaps - logically does) abandon NFP.
Abandoning NFP does not mean deliberately choosing sex while likely fertile.

My point remains - and you have not found fault with it - No couple is ever compelled or obligated to choose sex when/because they are fertile. They may not desire sex at such a time and/or they may be unaware when such time has arisen.

I suspect you are limiting possible outcomes by imagining that the couple always knows their fertility (eg. charts persistently). In which case, a time will come when they will likely find themselves desiring and considering sex when they know they are likely fertile - they will be faced with an “avoid” or “not avoid” moment. But as I have explained above and in earlier posts, that need not arise eg. they may abandon charting. In which case, their knowledge of their own fertility oscillates over various levels of fuzziness. If they have sex while fertile, it results from a willing choice or happenstance, not any obligation.

You wrote “Not sure where the obligation comes from,…”

It is your word from Premise 2 which I posted for reference. Also the couples matrimonial consent includes obligation willingly accepted. (I mentioned that so I don’t know why you did not understand.)

You wrote: "who said the couple are charting and/or aware of their fertility? "

For the logic if there is the intention to avoid pregnancy then it is a factor.

You wrote: “I suspect you are limiting possible outcomes by imagining that the couple always knows their fertility”.

No, I stated it without knowledge, but with intent, this way:

Post #95: The fertility status does not need to be known certainly. Choosing exclusively only times in a month that are thought to be infertile is NFP. To not have that intention means that ***when ***choosing times some must be thought to be more fertile.

Premise 2 does not hold up to this:

Post #101: The logic that defines avoidance for a month is if there are any conjugal acts in a month, and it is the intent is to avoid pregnancy for that month, and no acts in that month are in times thought to be fertile.

 

[Rau]

Post #101: The logic that defines avoidance for a month is if there are any conjugal acts in a month, and it is the intent is to avoid pregnancy for that month, and no acts in that month are in times thought to be fertile.

You seem to be stuck on the idea that “not avoiding” requires a deliberate choice to choose a fertile time. This is not true, as I thought Post #95 demonstrated in amathematical way.

This appears to be in the “agree to disagree” basket so I want pursue it with you further.