Contraception vs. NFP - Catholic Answers

  • Thread starter Thread starter Abbadon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Abbadon

Guest
So listening to the radio program for this with Jason Everet I was impressed. Outside of the specific study used for his 99% effective remark (the meta studies indicate its about 65%-75% which is still really good) I mostly tended to agree with him on why use NFP. Outside of morality.

But I have one specific question to a point that I am hoping someone will be able to address. It is not that contraception is artificial but it is that it does not work like medicines in that it does not work to restore the body to it’s natural state but it aims to take away. Was the general jist of it.

But what does this mean?
Does this mean the normal functions of a cell?
Sure we can generalize processes but the actual function of any given cell can vary absurdly, there isn’t really such a thing.

Does it mean the normal functions of an individual?
If so then what about women who are genetically predisposed to cysitic fibrosis, the homozygous of which is 22%, their biological coding functions tend them to a natural state of developing fibroids. And what about diabetics, thier body shuts down thier insulin generators. Sickle Cell anemics is another example. Oh and I shouldn’t forget color blindness. These are natural coding error functions (which we all have in different places) of biological entities, yet we see it fit to alter these as this is beneficial to us.

Or does it mean the general population and the perception of what is “normal”?
Then it brings to mind minority mutations which are beneficial for the individual, cholesterol build up resistance, extreme bone density, some women being able to see UV. Also a population may have it that the “normal” the majority function, the majority allele is in fact a hazardous one, such as in the case of cystic fibrosis.

Interestingly enough to deal with cystic fibrosis, specific contraceptive pills are given to reduce the severity of it. That would indeed present an interesting moral issue for those that believe contraception is immoral.

Oh and I nearly forgot in normal functions of an individual, some peoples normal function is to infact be sterile, for some reason or another.

I would personally preference NFP over chemical contraceptives, but contraceptives to be still seems fine, if couples together, do not want (can not handle) more children. A male has the ability to create near infinite sperm, so you won’t be wasting any by “spilling seed” and a female has about 600 000 eggs of which only a handful are gestated and used. And since women are usually not fertile, infertility is the “normal” state of a woman.

Also it should be noted that contraceptives are used for medical purposes other than sterility, cystic fibrosis is one I am directly familiar with as well as heavy blood loss and the need to control and reduce menstruation.

So the overall question is what do the anti-contraception people mean when they say is not returning the body to normal functions. I understand that Jason Everet in his credentials did not posses one in anything biological, perhaps he should…
 
The objective is to remove the normal state (fertility). The church refers to therapeutic methods which are to assist in recovering to the normal state (fertility). Thus it is not therapeutic.
 
The objective is to remove the normal state (fertility). The church refers to therapeutic methods which are to assist in recovering to the normal state (fertility). Thus it is not therapeutic.
The normal state of fertility. And what exactly is that? Considering all the different humans and human conditions we have… Cystic Fibrosis, Infertility… Are two examples of what some humans have to deal with. Also the normal state of fertility without medical aids kills 3/4 women in childbirth…
 
The normal state of fertility. And what exactly is that? Considering all the different humans and human conditions we have… Cystic Fibrosis, Infertility… Are two examples of what some humans have to deal with. Also the normal state of fertility without medical aids kills 3/4 women in childbirth…
The normal state of something is the purpose for which God designed it. We can discern the purpose of organs or body parts by thinking reflectively on what they were designed to do or achieve, even though we know that illness and defects often impair these normal functions. This is what we mean when we say ‘natural law’; it is the natural state of things.

Take, for example, the heart. What is the heart designed to do? It is designed to pump blood throughout the body, to pump consistently and rhythmically in order to circulate blood. This is what it was designed to do; it is the normal state of the heart, even though we know many people are born with heart defects or eventually develop arrhythmia or clogged arteries.

What are the ears designed to do? They are designed to receive sound and contribute to a person’s sense of balance. This is what ears were naturally designed to do, and it remains so even though we know that thousands of Americans are born deaf or hard of hearing.

So what are the female reproductive organs designed to do? They are designed to cycle through natural periods of fertility and infertility and to facilitate the conception of new life when the woman has sexual intercourse. This is true even though we know that many women are unable to conceive, because of PCOS, or scarred fallopian tubes, or the like. The fact remains that the reproductive organs have a purpose, designed by God to work in certain ways, and to deliberately impair their natural process is to violate natural law.

Medicine that works to serve the natural function of organs or body parts, for example, by regulating a defected heart, enabling a person to hear better, or helping a woman with subfertility conceive, is very good. But treatments or medications intended to disrupt these natural functions, for example, medicine intended to stop a beating heart, make a person unable to hear, or suppress the natural fertility of a man or woman, both harm us and violate natural law. This is why contraception is gravely disordered; it takes something which is good (fertility) and tries to thwart it. In no other area of medicine do physicians regularly take a perfectly healthy organ system and deliberatly disable or impair it. It truly is a twisted way of thinking about reproductive health, but we’ve become so blinded to its absurdity that society now thinks that it’s normal and responsible!

God bless you for grappling with this. Take care.
 
So listening to the radio program for this with Jason Everet I was impressed. Outside of the specific study used for his 99% effective remark (the meta studies indicate its about 65%-75% which is still really good).
I’m actually researching NFP’s effectiveness for my graduate thesis and I’ve never found a meta analysis suggesting that NFP was only 65-75% effective. Could the study in question be relating to rhythm? Either way, I’d be very interested in reading this analysis, if you were able to cite it (and here I’m being sincere). If there is, in fact, data suggesting its efficacy is this low, I should include it in my lit review.

Of course the efficacy rates vary by method, but I have come across several studies indicating perfect-use efficacy rates above 98%:

Fehring, R. J., Schneider, M., & Barron, M. L. (2008). Efficacy of the Marquette Method of natural family planning. MCN; American Journal of Maternal Child Nursing, 33(6), 348-354.

Frank-Herrmann, P., Heil, J., Gnoth, C., Toledo, E., Baur, S., Pyper, C., et al. (2007). The effectiveness of a fertility awareness based method to avoid pregnancy in relation to a couple’s sexual behaviour during the fertile time: a prospective longitudinal study. Human Reproduction, 22(5), 1310-1319.

God bless.
 
Where is your source for what seems like a completely false statement?
Yea I know seems really bad doesn’t it. It’s looking at absolutely no medical aids whatsoever, no midwife, nothing… As soon as I can reccal who made the statements or can work out a way to google for it I will cite it.
 
I’m actually researching NFP’s effectiveness for my graduate thesis and I’ve never found a meta analysis suggesting that NFP was only 65-75% effective. Could the study in question be relating to rhythm? Either way, I’d be very interested in reading this analysis, if you were able to cite it (and here I’m being sincere). If there is, in fact, data suggesting its efficacy is this low, I should include it in my lit review.

Of course the efficacy rates vary by method, but I have come across several studies indicating perfect-use efficacy rates above 98%:

Fehring, R. J., Schneider, M., & Barron, M. L. (2008). Efficacy of the Marquette Method of natural family planning. MCN; American Journal of Maternal Child Nursing, 33(6), 348-354.

Frank-Herrmann, P., Heil, J., Gnoth, C., Toledo, E., Baur, S., Pyper, C., et al. (2007). The effectiveness of a fertility awareness based method to avoid pregnancy in relation to a couple’s sexual behaviour during the fertile time: a prospective longitudinal study. Human Reproduction, 22(5), 1310-1319.

God bless.
Nope my bad you were right it was “rhythm method”, I went back to look at it to cite it and must have remembered it wrong. Rather than perfect-use efficancy what is the realistic efficancy of NFP?
I’m actually even more amazed now, I personally always hated chemical contraceptives and never like females going on them, so these results are great. It’s as effective as a condom.
 
The normal state of something is the purpose for which God designed it. We can discern the purpose of organs or body parts by thinking reflectively on what they were designed to do or achieve, even though we know that illness and defects often impair these normal functions. This is what we mean when we say ‘natural law’; it is the natural state of things.



Medicine that works to serve the natural function of organs or body parts, for example, by regulating a defected heart, enabling a person to hear better, or helping a woman with subfertility conceive, is very good. But treatments or medications intended to disrupt these natural functions, for example, medicine intended to stop a beating heart, make a person unable to hear, or suppress the natural fertility of a man or woman, both harm us and violate natural law. This is why contraception is gravely disordered; it takes something which is good (fertility) and tries to thwart it. In no other area of medicine do physicians regularly take a perfectly healthy organ system and deliberatly disable or impair it. It truly is a twisted way of thinking about reproductive health, but we’ve become so blinded to its absurdity that society now thinks that it’s normal and responsible!

God bless you for grappling with this. Take care.
See I guess the problem i have is the whole god designed it specifically for this purpose and this is what this purpose is. We are what we are because we are what survived. Ideally we shouldn’t need to breathe, Ideally we would have a recyclable component as the final electron acceptor in the electron transport chain, but instead we have oxygen, which means we have to breathe. We use oxygen as a final electron acceptor because our ancestors did and they must have found it most efficient. Personally I would love to see people tackle this, we wouldn’t need to breathe, how amazing would that be?

The human body is far from any good, it is only in the last century or two that we have extended our average lifespan from 40 to 80 years. When we as humanity change functioning things that are natural to the way we want it, this is what we’re doing. The “natural” way of life includes these defects as per individual.

There is no real “normal” or “natural order” state of being, is what I’m trying to communicate. Things just are because that’s how things best survived and got here. The appendix is a great example of useless organ.

Fertility is good when you want to have children, but when you don’t? Or can’t? Then it harms.
 
Normal body physiology is not simply an invention of Catholic theologians, its accepted medical terminology.

In nursing school, before you can learn pathophysiology (what goes wrong with the body), you must first learn normal, healthy physiology.

The Church teaches that medicine should restore, not destroy, normal physiology. In the case of female reproduction, that would be the normal function of the menstrual cycle: release of FSH, rise of estrogen, spike in LH, release of the egg, rise in progesterone, fall in progesterone, shedding of endometrial lining.
 
…Fertility is good when you want to have children, but when you don’t? Or can’t? Then it harms.
Fertility* never* harms.

A fertile human can not make a baby alone. It takes *two *fertile humans, (one male, one female), and they must perform a specific action in order for pregnancy to be even a possibility.
 
Normal body physiology is not simply an invention of Catholic theologians, its accepted medical terminology.

In nursing school, before you can learn pathophysiology (what goes wrong with the body), you must first learn normal, healthy physiology.

The Church teaches that medicine should restore, not destroy, normal physiology. In the case of female reproduction, that would be the normal function of the menstrual cycle: release of FSH, rise of estrogen, spike in LH, release of the egg, rise in progesterone, fall in progesterone, shedding of endometrial lining.
Very well said.
 
The normal state of fertility. And what exactly is that? …
The design of women
Considering all the different humans and human conditions we have… Cystic Fibrosis, Infertility… Are two examples of what some humans have to deal with.
drugs and surgery for these are the therapeutic methods referred to
Also the normal state of fertility without medical aids kills 3/4 women in childbirth…
actually 100% of people die
Where is your source for what seems like a completely false statement?
Abbadon;5175963:
Yea I know seems really bad doesn’t it. It’s looking at absolutely no medical aids whatsoever, no midwife, nothing… As soon as I can reccal who made the statements or can work out a way to google for it I will cite it.
My bet is she refers to the loss of fertilized eggs which fail to attach into the uterus. Otherwise “premature” or natural deaths which could have been delayed through therapeutic methods. Artificial Birth Control changes neither
 
There is no real “normal” or “natural order” state of being, is what I’m trying to communicate. Things just are because that’s how things best survived and got here. The appendix is a great example of useless organ.
A person who believes in God will say, “Its purpose is how God designed it to be.” A person who believes only in science may say, “Its purpose is how it evolved to be” (This appears to be what you’re saying… correct me if I’m misrepresenting your viewpoint). The Christian will look at a bird and say, “God designed the bird with wings so it could fly.” The evolutionist will look at the bird and say, “The bird evolved to have wings so it could fly away from predators.” Either way, we agree: The bird’s wings serve a purpose, to enable the bird to fly.

Natural law says that people and things thrive best when they are treated in accord with their purpose. A bird has wings so it can fly. If we chop off its wings, it won’t be able to fly, it won’t be able to flourish, and it may die. Similalry, a plant will thrive if it’s given what God or nature designed it to need: water, soil, sunlight. If it’s denied these things, it will wither and die.

In the same way, the female reproductive organs serve a purpose. The Catholic and the scientist will agree: their purpose is to enable a woman to conceive and bear children. What happens when we sever these organs from their purpose? Well, we can’t thrive. And in fact, I think this is what we’re seeing population-wise in terms of reproductive health: widespread sexually transmitted diseases and outrageous abortion rates. It is the result of decades in a society that believes in sex with consequences.
Fertility is good when you want to have children, but when you don’t? Or can’t? Then it harms.
No, fertility is always a good. To insist otherwise is to say to a woman, “You’re body is sometimes good (when it’s infertile), but a lot of the time you have this terrible thing about you which we need to change.” Contraceptives offend the dignity of women; they suggest to women that it’s better to be someone unable to get pregnant (i.e., that it’s better to be male).

Fertility isn’t (and shouldn’t be perceived as) a curse, even when a woman feels unable or unready to have children. This is one of the lies of the sexual revolution, that women can’t be free or reach their full potential unless they suppress their fertility. But it’s actually a very anti-woman thought; it suggests that women were somehow designed to be inferior to men.

So what of a situation in which a married couple really shouldn’t have any more children for the time being? The world would say, “Go with the most effective method. Get your tubes tied or get an IUD or use some other contraption.” But this is telling women that their bodies are a liability and they need to alter them to make them better. Natural family planning says to a woman, “Your fertility is good. Let’s work with it. Your body was designed by God (or evolved) to be infertile on these days, so enjoy them! And when your body if fertile, that’s still good. You can respect your body and the way it was designed to be by abstaining on those day.”

God bless.
 
Fertility* never* harms.
Then why do we need caesareans? Women can die of pregnancy and do.
A fertile human can not make a baby alone. It takes *two *fertile humans, (one male, one female), and they must perform a specific action in order for pregnancy to be even a possibility.
No strictly true, parthenogenesis, also we have artificial insemination for infertile couples.
 
Normal body physiology is not simply an invention of Catholic theologians, its accepted medical terminology.

In nursing school, before you can learn pathophysiology (what goes wrong with the body), you must first learn normal, healthy physiology.

The Church teaches that medicine should restore, not destroy, normal physiology. In the case of female reproduction, that would be the normal function of the menstrual cycle: release of FSH, rise of estrogen, spike in LH, release of the egg, rise in progesterone, fall in progesterone, shedding of endometrial lining.
Normal physiology would demand that one die early, natural is not inherently correct, If we can change or improve a biological process, like breathing to suit our desires. I love taking breathing as an example it is something I would love to see us do without. I think we should. If we could completely control fertility, safely and specifically I do not see why we should.

If we can improve physiology to function more efficiently and as we desire I do not see why we shouldn’t, as we do it already. Improving eye sight, genetic diseases etc…
 
The design of women drugs and surgery for these are the therapeutic methods referred to actually 100% of people die

My bet is she refers to the loss of fertilized eggs which fail to attach into the uterus. Otherwise “premature” or natural deaths which could have been delayed through therapeutic methods. Artificial Birth Control changes neither
I was talking about the women dying, from pregnancy complications without medical aids.
 
Normal physiology would demand that one die early, natural is not inherently correct, If we can change or improve a biological process, like breathing to suit our desires. I love taking breathing as an example it is something I would love to see us do without. I think we should. If we could completely control fertility, safely and specifically I do not see why we should.

If we can improve physiology to function more efficiently and as we desire I do not see why we shouldn’t, as we do it already. Improving eye sight, genetic diseases etc…
No. You are confusing normal and natural.

Normal is the way the body is supposed to function. We are normally supposed to breath, as it is the way the our cells receive oxygen. Your desire to not breathe has nothing to do with whether breathing is a normal human function.

Medicine, generally speaking, restores normal physiology. I administer insulin to a diabetic patient so that their blood glucose levels are at a normal physiologic levels. When a patient does not receive insulin, their blood sugar levels may spike enough to a level to send them into diabetic ketoacidosis. This is the natural way the body responds to extremely high blood sugar levels. However, this is not the normal state, or the way the body is supposed to work. Administering insulin is not thwarting the way the body’s normal system works.

Also, you are patently wrong about your statistic that 75% of unassisted births would result in death of the mother or child.
 
I should acknowledge something. If you are religious and believe that god made humans in a specific way, to exist in a specific way. I can understand how this concept of natural, healthy physiology is acceptable.

But as a non-believer, and one who understands evolution and aspires to work on (rather than just with) cells and genetics, this doesn’t suffice. Is it possible for you to explain this in a way that applies to people of all faiths and those with none? I personally prefer, the healthiest most efficient form of physiology, natural or not.
Say for example not requiring to breathe and with an artificial conrnacopia of synthetic organs, all doing work exceeding the organic ones with excelent added features of removing all toxins, viruses, 100% energy conversion efficiency etc…
In this case for a woman I agree entirely with you it is currently NFP, but I do not see the emphasis of natural being a good one.

But to a catholic what about condoms? This does not interfere with this concept of natural physiology. And the union between woman and man is important for a couple and yet they cannot have children due to whatever reason. Could they not be permitted to use both the rhythm method and condoms which might be easier to manage than NFP? Or all three, just as a method of managing children but still engaging in the act of coming into union.
 
I believe my examples were from a completely medical point of view.

Nursing textbooks are not written from any particular worldview, yet they all agree that there is such a thing as normal physiology.

Condoms thwart fertility, normal physiology, is the most basic sense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top