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Bezant
Guest
Hello Vladdy
It would be interesting to hear from a priest or one of the Apologists, but from a Catholic perspective, you and your wife may not be called to do this charitable work if the only safe precautions you need to take, are wrong according to the Church–not just for Catholics, but for anyone.
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Viki63
Guest
Dear Sir,
You are asking your question on a Catholic forum, so will for the most part get Catholic responses.
The Catholic church regards all contraception as morally wrong, because it interferes with God’s plan for human life. It’s telling God that you will decide when you’ll get pregnant, and you don’t want His (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s telling your wife that you want her for sex and unity, but will not give yourself fully to her.
We believe that contraception demeans women, since it reduces them to a sexual object. I understand that in your case you are trying to protect her and any unborn children, but a good end does not justify evil ends.
Perhaps you could use NFP, and if she did happen to get pregnant, she could return to a safe country.
You will get different answers depending on who you ask. I am sure your hearts are in the right place, I pray that God will lead you in the direction of His will.
You are asking your question on a Catholic forum, so will for the most part get Catholic responses.
The Catholic church regards all contraception as morally wrong, because it interferes with God’s plan for human life. It’s telling God that you will decide when you’ll get pregnant, and you don’t want His (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s telling your wife that you want her for sex and unity, but will not give yourself fully to her.
We believe that contraception demeans women, since it reduces them to a sexual object. I understand that in your case you are trying to protect her and any unborn children, but a good end does not justify evil ends.
Perhaps you could use NFP, and if she did happen to get pregnant, she could return to a safe country.
You will get different answers depending on who you ask. I am sure your hearts are in the right place, I pray that God will lead you in the direction of His will.
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nospamgorecycle
Guest
I don’t believe in contraceptive pills because they change your hormones and you will be attracted to features that are less compatible to bearing healthy children. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704681904576313243579677316.html
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Nate13
Guest
Here is a website (non-Catholic I believe) that goes over the possible side effects of the pill. Lets just say its not candy.
Using a condom isn’t going to solve your problem either, but it might push the chance of causing an abortion into the tenth’s or hundredth’s of a percent. It’s also still contracepting… My advice would be to continue talking with your wife about this with love and patience.
As Catholics we view any contraceptive act (condoms, pulling out, pill) as intrinsically evil. Thus it would never be permissible to contracept in the name of some good reason. We would also say the same for things like adultery, fornication, murder, etc… You can never justify an intrinsically immoral act no matter how good your intentions are.
Using a condom isn’t going to solve your problem either, but it might push the chance of causing an abortion into the tenth’s or hundredth’s of a percent. It’s also still contracepting… My advice would be to continue talking with your wife about this with love and patience.
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KCT
Guest
There are all sorts of known side effects of the pill. Why a woman would risk her health is beyond me.
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vladdy
Guest
Well, we talked about it again. We have after a lot of difficult discussions and prayer decided to go with NFP. While she believes the risks of the pill are minimal and I don’t think there is as much proof as some say there is that it may cause as much harm as it is alleged to, we decided it still isn’t a risk we are willing to take.
We are still planning to go with this group and will apply the method, we have been told by people in our families (most of whom are Catholic) and a seminar we went to that it is almost always effective, and all I can say is they better damn be right. If we were to have a child, we would still serve in the developing world, albeit in less violent conditions and not with the group we are planning to go with, or keep ministering and get even more in the inner city where we live. We will trust God that He will prevent us from having a child and let us serve with the group we want to go with, if not, we will interpret that either a) it was not His will that we go to serve Him in the circumstances we want to serve Him in or b) the ‘effectiveness’ of NFP is bs. In that case we will thank Him for our child and raise him or her serving God somewhere else. We know something we will never do.
My wife and I both grew up in the suburbs in a culture where most people’s greatest concern seems to be on keeping their little houses and yards tidy and their nice cars washed washed, and ignore the reality of the world around them. We would never subject our children to living in this lie, when we have them.
Thanks for your prayers those who prayed.
We are still planning to go with this group and will apply the method, we have been told by people in our families (most of whom are Catholic) and a seminar we went to that it is almost always effective, and all I can say is they better damn be right. If we were to have a child, we would still serve in the developing world, albeit in less violent conditions and not with the group we are planning to go with, or keep ministering and get even more in the inner city where we live. We will trust God that He will prevent us from having a child and let us serve with the group we want to go with, if not, we will interpret that either a) it was not His will that we go to serve Him in the circumstances we want to serve Him in or b) the ‘effectiveness’ of NFP is bs. In that case we will thank Him for our child and raise him or her serving God somewhere else. We know something we will never do.
My wife and I both grew up in the suburbs in a culture where most people’s greatest concern seems to be on keeping their little houses and yards tidy and their nice cars washed washed, and ignore the reality of the world around them. We would never subject our children to living in this lie, when we have them.
Thanks for your prayers those who prayed.
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vladdy
Guest
Does anyone know of any really good resources on NFP? This is a big leap of faith and we really hope it will work and want to do everything we can on our part to make sure it does.
Can I ask who here uses NFP, or knows people who do, and has succesfully avoided pregnancy with it? Who (please be honest) knows people who did it properly and it still did not work? How often does this happen?
Can I ask who here uses NFP, or knows people who do, and has succesfully avoided pregnancy with it? Who (please be honest) knows people who did it properly and it still did not work? How often does this happen?
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vladdy
Guest
Thanks for the link. Is the “calendar method” the same as NFP???
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As long as a woman’s monthly cycle is regular and predictable AND as long as both partners have a good understanding of the cycle, this can be a safe and chemical-free method of birth control. However, many children have been born to parents practicing an exemplary calendar method.*
I respect the Catholic view that any kind of contraception is wrong, although I have to say I disagree with it. I think what matters is that the method does not kill unborn babies, and does not harm the wife or future children. Chemicals do these things. A condom does not. I don’t see the difference between using one and using NFP, or using them in conjunction with each other. In both cases, the couple is preventing a child from being born, or at least trying to. In both cases, if it is God’s will, a child may still come. In both cases, he or she will not be aborted, neither will there be effects on the woman’s health or the childrens’ health.
I prayed to God that He would stop my wife from using the pill, or if she uses it, that it would not bring harm to her or our future children. He has granted this, and I am grateful. Blessed be His name.
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vladdy
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TobyLue
Guest
vladdy
Check with the nearest Catholic Church or you can contact the local diocese. Tell them you are not catholic but want to use NFP. They can probably direct you to where you can attend classes. My opinion is it would be better to have live sessions where you can ask questions rather than look in the internet where asking questions would be a problem. Face to face would certainly be much better. BTW NFP can also help if a couple wants to conceive.
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ahs
Guest
Couple to Couple League is a good one…my wife and I use this.
ccli.org/
If I remember correctly, an instructor actually came to our house…though they also have courses you can attend. If you are serious about charting, both spouses need to be educated on how it works and what the signs point to. Both need to be involved.
We’ve used it to avoid conception at times and it’s never failed us (in 8 years). Though, we also have used it to conceive and sometimes have just gone with the “providentialist” thought (we have 4 children so far). Of the people we know who have had “oops” babies, it was due to 1) mis-reading the chart or 2) saying “what the heck” and taking a risk even though they were actually trying to avoid.
My personal thought is that NFP is just as “effective” as your reason to avoid is “serious”. As the seriousness of your reason to avoid conception fades, so does your desire to avoid the marriage act during the fertile periods.
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vladdy
Guest
Thanks for that. I will check it. Believe me, we are very serious about our plans to serve with the group. It is not a joke to us, it is a calling.Couple to Couple League is a good one…my wife and I use this.
ccli.org/
If I remember correctly, an instructor actually came to our house…though they also have courses you can attend. If you are serious about charting, both spouses need to be educated on how it works and what the signs point to. Both need to be involved.
We’ve used it to avoid conception at times and it’s never failed us (in 8 years). Though, we also have used it to conceive and sometimes have just gone with the “providentialist” thought (we have 4 children so far). Of the people we know who have had “oops” babies, it was due to 1) mis-reading the chart or 2) saying “what the heck” and taking a risk even though they were actually trying to avoid.
My personal thought is that NFP is just as “effective” as your reason to avoid is “serious”. As the seriousness of your reason to avoid conception fades, so does your desire to avoid the marriage act during the fertile periods.
How is it possible for the charts be ‘misread’? Can they be off? How to avoid that?
Thanks.
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vladdy
Guest
Thanks for that. We will probably be in touch with the people who led the seminar we went to, they seemed to know what they were talking about. But probably multiple sources to crosscheck and reference would be best. Doing a lot of research was what convinced me that the Pill could have effects we do not want to risk, and helped us make the choice. Doing a lot of research into making sure we make NFP works to get as close to the 100th percentile as we can is logical.
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ahs
Guest
Good question. Inexperience is a culprit. For example, it may takes several months for you to be able to distinguish from “fertile” vs. “infertile” mucus. If you miss a day of temps, there is a chance you may miss a temp shift. Or, it may be irregular signs, such as flucctuating temps that don’t follow the models closely. These things take time to learn how to read properly. Most if this will fall on the wife to be able learn her body, her signs, how her temps and other signs change and relater to her phases…the husband gets off kinda easy…just hands the thermometer over and practices self-control.
Until you really learn to chart and what the chart is telling you, there will be longer periods of abstinence. But once you get the hang of it, unless your phases are irregular or there are other hormone issues at play, abstinence can be a 1-2 week window…it varies from couple to couple. I do know a couple who has had to abstain for MONTHS due to irregular charts. But, their situation would be grave if she got pregnant, so they stick it out…“for better or for worse…in sickness and in health…”
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
This. Your wife is going to be in harm’s way. Your future children are at stake! You could be killed, she could be killed. You made the decision to become husband and wife, and now God expects that you will be open to life. All of the conflicts you are going through are because of the missionary work you have decided to do.
Please pray and talk to a priest about this.
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vladdy
Guest
Are you talking about life being threatened by our work or by the pill?
In regards to our work, we do not want to be killed but we also are not afraid of death if it comes in the context of serving Jesus. We have both been in situations where our lives have been at risk, and have had physical violence and threats directed at us. Jesus says that those who lose their lives for the Gospel will find them, those who try to save their lives will lose them. This applies to everyone who wants to follow Him. We would not have a child in a warzone and if she was pregnant, we would leave and go back to the States.
In regards to contraception, we have decided not to use the pill, and use NFP instead. The risk of losing a child or her health or the health of our future children is extremely small, but it is there. We will trust that God will allow us to serve Him with the group we want to work with and prevent us from having a child. If the method fails, we will thank Him for the child and keep serving Him but in a less violent environment. There is a lot of work that can be done in the hood where we now live, or we could work in a poor country with another group and do work that is in bit less violent areas.
Either way, moving out to the suburbs and pursuing the “American dream” is never going to be on the list. I would rate it as morally unacceptable as having an abortion. In both ways, you are killing life. One physically, the other spiritually.
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vladdy
Guest
Thanks for that. By irregular phases you mean her cycle, yes? LOL sorry if I sound like a complete idiot, I’ve taking in so much info in the last while. What do you mean by other hormone issues? How can that be checked?Good question. Inexperience is a culprit. For example, it may takes several months for you to be able to distinguish from “fertile” vs. “infertile” mucus. If you miss a day of temps, there is a chance you may miss a temp shift. Or, it may be irregular signs, such as flucctuating temps that don’t follow the models closely. These things take time to learn how to read properly. Most if this will fall on the wife to be able learn her body, her signs, how her temps and other signs change and relater to her phases…the husband gets off kinda easy…just hands the thermometer over and practices self-control.
Until you really learn to chart and what the chart is telling you, there will be longer periods of abstinence. But once you get the hang of it, unless your phases are irregular or there are other hormone issues at play, abstinence can be a 1-2 week window…it varies from couple to couple. I do know a couple who has had to abstain for MONTHS due to irregular charts. But, their situation would be grave if she got pregnant, so they stick it out…“for better or for worse…in sickness and in health…”
Thanks so much. That couple sounds like an inspiration. Can I ask you how long you have been married for?
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Oh my gosh. Tell me you didn’t just equate living, working, and raising children to murdering your own child.
You know what? I wish you the best. I hope and pray nothing happens to you. But that statement was incredibly arrogant and prideful, and tells me that you think yourself so holy as to practically walk on water. Meanwhile, judging everyone who isn’t quite as holy and brave as you and your wife. Have at it.
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vladdy
Guest
Thanks for the prayers. I don’t think myself holy, I am a sinner like everyone else. I have said and done a lot of stupid things in my life, and it is only by God’s grace I am saved. I grew up in the suburbs. Let me share why I would never want my family to live there.Oh my gosh. Tell me you didn’t just equate living, working, and raising children to murdering your own child.
You know what? I wish you the best. I hope and pray nothing happens to you. But that statement was incredibly arrogant and prideful, and tells me that you think yourself so holy as to practically walk on water. Meanwhile, judging everyone who isn’t quite as holy and brave as you and your wife. Have at it.
We had a family a few houses down when I was very young where the teenage children were being neglected and abused, and everyone around was too busy minding their business to give a damn or get involved. The girl, after her 5th suicide attempt, died in a hospital. No one around gave a damn. I have heard people from there speak of the ‘niggers’ and ‘aliens’ who live in the ghetto, and there have actually been community meetings to stop an organization that works with at-risk kids from setting up a house in the area… such a great ministry oppurtunity, or at least that is how a Christian could see it, and many of them claim to be. The first time I left to work overseas, many people said I was crazy. I have great parents who have taught me a lot and my neighbours are nice people, but when it comes to caring for the least of these, from what I have seen, they are missing out on that. And in Matthew 25 Jesus talks about who the poor are… Him.
Also, not everyone is called to go to a warzone. But everyone is called… in some way… to work to alleviate the suffering of people who are victimized by poverty. You can do it from anywhere, but the point is to do it.
You’re right, the abortion comparison was wrong and stupid. The pill would be a better option. There are probably many people who grow up and stay in the suburbs and in spite of that, do care about people around them… that includes people inside and outside of their neighbourhood. But the rush to health and wealth gets to many people’s heads and messes with them bad. That is as far as I am concerned a spiritual death. Like the pill, not a risk that necessarily must happen but also not one worth taking.
Also, living, working and raising your kids can be also done not in the suburbs of a middle to upper class neighbourhood in LA.
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