This argument gets made a lot, but it misses the point.And who are we to tell God what he was supposed to do? Only one person ever got to tell God what he was supposed to do. Her name was Mary.
-Tim-
Sure:Could you please cite a CCC reference for this [the idea that those in hell freely and deliberately chose to be there]?
To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell. CCC 1033, emphasis mine]
Really? Read Pope St. John Paul the Great’s General Audience (1999-07-28) on this topic.What you’re saying seems to be quite different from the things one usually hears on this matter.
Many Christians. If you read the threads here you can get plenty of examples of self-identified Christians judging others to hell, regardless of what those people actually know or believe about God.May I ask where you are getting any contrary information from? Are you getting this from any recognized Catholic authority?
I think this largely comes from certain Calvinist (puritan) influences. The Catholic Church has never taught that anyone in hell is there against his free will. Hell is the ultimate exercise of our free will - complete free-will separation from God.Such an outlook might not be in line with Catholic doctrine, but it sure has a lot of influence in the world.
“Convert/repent before it’s too late!” is a relatively frequent theme commonly heard among Christians.I think this largely comes from certain Calvinist (puritan) influences. The Catholic Church has never taught that anyone in hell is there against his free will. Hell is the ultimate exercise of our free will - complete free-will separation from God.
I find that it’s hard to accept the idea that people in hell want to be there because the threat of hell is so readily thrown about in popular culture. People get threatened with eternal damantion and little or no attention is payed to what they want or don’t want; what they know or don’t know; as if there is no free will involved, or that free will doesn’t matter. There is just that total, ultimate threat, and nothing else seems to matter.The reason we find it hard to accept the idea that people in hell want to be there
Are you familiar with “The River of Fire”?Hell isn’t really like that - we have no idea what hell is really like (we can’t even comprehend it). That is an imperfect allegory using familiar themes to describe a place where saints don’t want to be.
/…/
Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father’s arms, but if he does not love him, his father’s loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.
/…/Code:“I say,” writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, “that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love…. It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it” (Homily 84).
In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!
Code:Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred,” 47 saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.
Thank you for the reference. I have some knowledge of Lewis’ work.The great Anglican author C. S. Lewis wrote an excellent short story called The Great Divorce.
First, I think God is not necessarily kind. But I suggest you take another avenue with your critique of hell. I would argue that the notion, that hell is complete separation from God, is completely at odds with God’s omnipresence. So what is our solution? I would argue that hell is, in fact, being in the presence of a God that one has rejected.I think that the hell is too terrible to be compatible with God’s complete kindness. I used to be a Catholic but now I am not because of this.
Your question covers alot of ground. I think some reading is in order to adequately answer your question.I am confused about Catholic faith. So, I come here to look for the answer. Please help me if you can. Thanks!
According to the Roman Catholic Church, God created the world, in other words, all things except God. And now it is certain that some beings, at least the fallen angels, will remain in big pain in the hell forever. So, I am confused: It seems to be contradictory to God’s complete kindness that he created the world in which some beings will remain in big pain in the hell forever.
God is always completely kind, and he knew what would happen if he created the world before he created the world, since he always knows everything. So, before he created the world, he was supposed to consider the terrible situation carefully and tried to avoid it. There was at least one solution - he just did not create anything. He created the world in complete freedom. And, he created the world not because he needed something from the world, since he always lacks nothing. So, this solution is feasible. And if he had created nothing, it seems that everything is OK. There would be only God, who is completely perfect, completely good and in complete happiness. So, considering that there was at least one solution to the permanent big pain, why have he still let it happen? It seems that this is contradictory to God’s complete kindness.
We may blame the fallen angels and say that their pains are due to their sins. This may be true. However, after all, their permanent big pain is terrible, which God should try to avoid.
So, does anyone have any answer of this? If you have an answer, please tell me. Thanks!
zhoudu, what do believe happens to people when they die? What will happen to you? I skimmed through the posts, but I don’ think you ever posted your opinion (?).I think that the hell is too terrible to be compatible with God’s complete kindness. I used to be a Catholic but now I am not because of this.
I don’t have opinions on these questions. I don’t know their answers. But this doesn’t matter here. Here, I am discussing another question, the contradiction between God and hell, not those questions that you list.zhoudu, what do believe happens to people when they die? What will happen to you? I skimmed through the posts, but I don’ think you ever posted your opinion (?).