Contradiction in teaching on salvation?

[At_Trent]

Lumen Gentium:

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, **not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(*13)

Well, I got that right

Exactly, but even if one is a Catholic, it is no guarantee of Salvation.

 

[Gregory_I]

Except, what degree of knowledge is sufficient? Perhaps they reject people who adore cookies, as we do. But, perhaps they think we do this. Are they following Christ in following their conviction, misguided as it is?

 

[Warrenton]

How about a 8 or 10 year old child who happens to be Baptist? or Muslim?
How about a Native American before the discovery of America?
How about an Australian Aborigine before 1700?
How about someone who grows up isolated in a cult?

Could they be considered “invincibly ignorant”?

There are two real categories in your list. The first is children, who are judged differently because their intellect is not formed sufficiently to evaluate the moral lessons of humanity at large and the natural world.

The second category are adults who are not Catholics, for any reason.

St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans deals with this category or humanity, and explains that nature herself makes known the truths of God, but in their perversity, men continue to reject the truth.

Against this truth, the truth that no man can say for certain who is damned or not must be weighed.

The problem seems less theological than pedagogical. What to teach?

The older teachings seem the better path, recognizing as they do the inability of most people to engage in prolonged study of the issue. The older statements are of greater profit and practical use, because they exhort both evangelization to the faith and maintenance of fidelity.

The newer formulation, such as that expressed in the oft quoted V2 passage, is more apt to result in apathy and a relativistic attitude.

 

[heart4home]

"The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Could you clarify the above for me? Is it saying that the Muslims who do not follow Jesus, will be saved, but yet in the OP quotes we see that the Jews who worship that same Creator, and devote Christians who have for whatever life situations have been lead to doubt the Authority of the Roman Catholic Church will not?

 

[Gregory_I]

I personally do not accept that Moslems worship the one God, because they have completely caricturized him beyond his real essence. THerefore, they worship a product of their depraved imaginings, which is idolatry.

I also agree that there is a better way to put these things than Vatican II said, but it is still not wrong, and is given the assent of faith by the Faithful, who are the Mind of the Church which is the mind of Christ.

Also, realize, even if Vatican II were NOT an ecumenical council in its initial intentions, it still has the universal assent of faith , which as I said is the MInd of the Church which is the mind of Christ, and this universal assent, in itself, therefore makes what it taught infallible. Unless you think the whole church can fall into error, which is plainly heretical.

This is also why those who do not accept our current Pope are in error: The Universal assent and reception of the Faithful of any article of the Faith or anything related to morals is just as infallible as an ecumenical council or an ex cathedra statement.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Frankly, Daegus, I don’t know if that’s an option, seeing one of the statements I posted says that people had better be united with the church BEFORE death.

If you investigate the Summa Theologia you will encounter the Angelic Doctor’s writing about “Natural Law” which has parameters in which those who havent been Baptised and havent had knowledge in their lifetime of the existance of the Catholic Church can Save their Soul if they do the will of GOD in their lives on Earth - albeit they are still saved through Holy Mother the Church by the perrogative of Natural Law. We also know that Baptism of Desire and of Blood are as Valid as Sacramental Baptism (Water and the Holy Ghost) when access to the Sacrament cannot be facilitated. So is it possible that a Non Catholic can be saved? Indeed - if he doth the will of GOD. But also keep in mind - by doing the will of GOD one is led by the Spirit. Sooner or later the desire leads one home. Suffice to say - IN Holy Mother Church - the Supreme Law is the Salvation of Souls and by the very design of the Church - its structure and its Sacraments - She alone stands tall amoung all Other Churches as the Universal Church leading to Heaven if one is inclined to conform their Free will to the will of GOD. Therefore - the more one does in this life as is humanly possible the more likely it is that they will at some time in theor life , eventually either convert or reject the Truths of Catholicism. IMO. But remember this - Conversion begins and ends with you. And for me with me. Its our Job to remain faithful so that others may see in our example a reason to remain so themselves or to convert if their life lacks GOD Sacramentally. It is never our place to Judge when or if this will occur for our neightbor.

Pax

 

[fhkjds]

So far I feel dissatisfied with the responses to my original post.

I am not sure if the original 3 quotes constitute official church teaching. That’s probably the most important thing to know.

If they are part of the doctrine that is meant to be subscribed to by the faithful, I do believe that the church has contradicted itself in the new catechism in its teachings on who can be saved.

 

[Gregory_I]

THese are all official teachings. You need to read the entire documents that state these things though: THe Catholic church cannot contradict herself, the Faithful have received all these things as true, therefore, they are true, the Spirit has spoken through the Church.

 

[baylee]

There are two real categories in your list. The first is children, who are judged differently because their intellect is not formed sufficiently to evaluate the moral lessons of humanity at large and the natural world.

The second category are adults who are not Catholics, for any reason.

St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans deals with this category or humanity, and explains that nature herself makes known the truths of God, but in their perversity, men continue to reject the truth.

Against this truth, the truth that no man can say for certain who is damned or not must be weighed.

The problem seems less theological than pedagogical. What to teach?

The older teachings seem the better path, recognizing as they do the inability of most people to engage in prolonged study of the issue. The older statements are of greater profit and practical use, because they exhort both evangelization to the faith and maintenance of fidelity.

The newer formulation, such as that expressed in the oft quoted V2 passage, is more apt to result in apathy and a relativistic attitude.

I think this is the main issue…the perception. The Church still teaches that one must be Catholic…that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of the Truth, but the V2 quotes make it seem as if being Catholic is not necessary. It most certainly has helped many a Catholic believe that their Jewish friend or their Msulim co-worker have an equal shot at Heaven.

 

[MikeDunphy]

In the second paragraph of Sublimus Dei, Pope Paul III stated “…man, according to the testimony of the sacred scriptures, has been created to enjoy eternal life and happiness, which none may obtain save through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ”.

I don’t see much support there for the notion that the pagan Indians, having heard nothing of Christ, had any hope of reaching heaven.

Rolltide;7385116:

…Did God create half of a planet’s worth of people just to automatically be doomed to hell?

(Hint: You might want to look at Sublimus Deus and the Council of Trent…)

By the way, the church clearly ruled that Native Americans that lived before the discovery of America DID have a chance at salvation, and it ruled this in the 1500s, so it’s clear that the idea of the possibility of the salvation of non-Catholics dates to WELL before Vatican II.

 

[Gregory_I]

That writing of Paul III was not aimed at the issue of invincible ignorance:

People had never seen native Americans, and they seemed so different that they were not sure if they were fully human and even capable of receiving salvation. The POpe simply Clarified, yes they are People just like us, and as such, in need of Christ.

That’s all.

If we ever discover extraterrestrial humanoid life, another similar encyclical may be written.

 

[jlhargus]

Consider the following 3 quotes:

1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
2. “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
3. “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

**My questions are:

1. Do these constitute official Catholic teaching?
2. How can these be squared with the Vatican 2 teaching:**

“This * holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.”*

matt1618.freeyellow.com/eens.html

The Bull is directed toward heretics.

 

[SouthpawLink]

Great question. I have always wondered this. I do know that Pius XII, a traditional pope who I deeply respect, reprimanded Fr. Feeney who said any child not baptized will go to hell.

What? The Holy Office under Ven. Pius XII upheld the utter necessity of baptism for infants (in 1958). Fr. Feeney said that water baptism was completely necessary for entry into heaven, contrary to the Church’s teaching on baptism of desire (i.e. divine faith and perfect charity - see Suprema Haec Sacra of August 1949).

 

[SouthpawLink]

I think this is the main issue…the perception. The Church still teaches that one must be Catholic…that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of the Truth, but the V2 quotes make it seem as if being Catholic is not necessary. It most certainly has helped many a Catholic believe that their Jewish friend or their Msulim co-worker have an equal shot at Heaven.

Ven. Pius IX condemned that opinion explicitly:

“Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less
destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world,
and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think
that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those
who have never lived in the true Church of Christ [see n. 1717].
Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and
condition after death of those who have not submitted in any way to the
Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a
response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable
Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is
infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and
“judgments of God” which are 'a great deep” Ps. 35:7] and cannot be
penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic duty, we wish
your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will
strive as much as you can to drive from the mind of men that impious
and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever" (Singulari Quadem, 9 December 1854: Denzinger 1646).

 

[TRAD1936]

I’ll throw in my two cents worth on this one. Salvation is offered to all,. It seems that many will not merit it or accept what is required to receive it it and will not receive it. We in the west have expanded upon the term invincible ignorance to include everybody outside of the faith and I really don’t think is proper.

Invincible ignorance would not apply to one who has heard the truth and rejects it. You cannot be ignorant of something if you have consciously rejected it. If one has never heard the truth then he can be saved in spite of it. He may not be but he can be. Most protestant groups Jews and Muslims have heard the truth and reject it in favor of what they choose to believe. I don’t think that Jesus said “hey everybody, live a good life, believe what you want and my Father will accept you and you will be saved” In fact I am sure he didn’t say that or anything close to it

Since Jesus founded the Catholic Church it follows that those who follow Him merit salvation if they follow the rules. Those who for whatever reason have never heard the truth can also be saved. Those who knowingly reject Him, I think wil perish.,

 

[wisdomseeker]

I think that protestantism has stood in the way of the Truth for too long leading too many souls into err and I also think that the Church has some concern about this. protestantism is keeping millions of people away from the Sacraments and the Church Jesus built. Plus, protestantism has become a scandal to the world since they contradict most of the teachings of the Catholic Church and has caused doubts in the minds of many who wants to know Christ. I think in the last decades with all misenterpretation of the documents, it led many to believe that any religion is just as good as the other. This assumption is false and people need to come to the roots of Christianity to know exactly what we should believe. the belief that spread throughout the world that the CC has changed the teachings that she no longer is necessary for salvation is real and it is being said by some priests also even today.

 

[SouthpawLink]

I think that protestantism has stood in the way of the Truth for too long leading too many souls into err and I also think that the Church has some concern about this. protestantism is keeping millions of people away from the Sacraments and the Church Jesus built. Plus, protestantism has become a scandal to the world since they contradict most of the teachings of the Catholic Church and has caused doubts in the minds of many who wants to know Christ. I think in the last decades with all misenterpretation of the documents, it led many to believe that any religion is just as good as the other. This assumption is false and people need to come to the roots of Christianity to know exactly what we should believe. the belief that spread throughout the world that the CC has changed the teachings that she no longer is necessary for salvation is real and it is being said by some priests also even today.

And then there’s the fact that Pope Benedict said we shouldn’t pray for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense, and the PCPCU (Cardinal Kasper) said in June of 1993 that we shouldn’t be converting the Eastern Orthodox. So, the Church herself promotes this error, even if only in an “unofficial” manner.

 

[wisdomseeker]

And then there’s the fact that Pope Benedict said we shouldn’t pray for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense, and the PCPCU (Cardinal Kasper) said in June of 1993 that we shouldn’t be converting the Eastern Orthodox. So, the Church herself promotes this error, even if only in an “unofficial” manner.

I

I think that our leaders are begining to realize the damage that their pronouncements have caused the Church, and may begin to turn around soon. If someone says the CC is not necessary for salvation of all, then there is no need for the CC in this world anymore. There is no explanation for her existence anymore since everybody is good just wherever they are. What is the purpose of the Church if not to convert pagans and those of false religions? Is it not why Jesus built His Church? Is it not what Jesus did with the Jews? Did not the Jews believe in God? why then, Jesus went there and try to convert their hearts to believe Him if all they needed was to believe in God alone and not the Son?
I like what the priest of the Latin Mass said last night: " go and ask those outside of the CC, why they believe in Jesus and yet deny the Eucharist?" Why do you call Jesus a lier when He said this is my Body…" Yet, you say you believe Jesus?" He went on to say that people are spreading the news that the CC is just another religion just like the others. He warns us not to let this go on anymore, that we must go out and tell the world about Jesus and His Church, and all the Sacraments.

 

[SouthpawLink]

Very well said, wisdomseeker!

 

[jlhargus]

And then there’s the fact that Pope Benedict said we shouldn’t pray for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense, .

JL: Southpaw could you give the source, I would like to read it. Thanks