Contradiction N.T. Wright vs. Raymond Brown

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There is a contradiction I’ve found between two reputable biblical scholars: N.T. Wright and Raymond Brown. Were there other messianic claimants during the lifetime of Jesus? I am currently looking into the dumb "The God Who Wasn’t There" movie with an electron microscope (the movie says Christians don’t examine or even heard of these things, oh yeah? ). But I’d like to resolve this one:

N.T. Wright: “And my fifth point, therefore, is that Jesus was – in and through, and in the middle of all of that – a messianic claimant. As a historian, one must say I believe, Jesus was claiming to be the true, anointed leader…And there were plenty of other first-century Jews who thought that they were God’s anointed. The classic example, actually on into the second century is Simon ben Kosiba who was hailed as the ‘son of the star’ Bar Kochba, by no less than the great Rabbi Aqiba himself. It wasn’t an odd thing for Jews to think that maybe they were the Lord’s anointed. There are – I count roughly 15 messianic or quasi-messianic movements between about 50 B.C. and 150 A.D. And Jesus is right in the middle of that.” (from "Jesus of Myth and History" 1995 talk at Yale, see minute 17 to 19 in the MP3 file for the above quote)

Raymond Brown: “Since the ‘Messiah’ issue will appear in the discussion to follow, some fictions need to be laid to rest. One encounters the affirmation that there were many would-be messiahs in Palestine at this time. In fact there is no evidence that any Jew claimed or was said to be the Messiah before Jesus of Nazareth (or until a century after his death). Thus one must offer an explanation for the unanimity attested in the NT that Jesus was the Christ (Messiah).” (Raymond Brown, his massive Introduction to the New Testament, page 820 note 6, then mentions Ben Witherington, M. de Jonge, J.D.G. Dunn, J.H. Charlesworth, P. Stuhlmacher, and finally N.T. Wright on “very important scholars posit an affirmation or confession of messiahship during Jesus’ lifetime”)

My question is, were there many “messianic movements” and claims to be the Messiah shortly before and during Jesus’ lifetime? Wright says there were about 15, while Fr. Brown says there were none or no evidence for others besides Jesus.

This article seems to list a couple. How would you resolve this?

Phil P
 
Perhaps go through and see how Christ is different?

I looked through the first few, and they are all warriors in some way. Christ, on the other hand, was a completely different Messiah than the Jews expected, and, I imagine, than most of the other alleged Messiah’s. Of the eight or so I read, only one seems to be peaceful, and none have miracles attributed to them.

However, I only skimmed through it. Perhaps you should just look to see if they are
  1. Military leaders
  2. If they have miracles attributed to them
and to remember that Christ is probably the only One to claim “Messiah” who has not failed - after all, the military leaders obviously did not one, and none created an entire new social order like Jesus.
 
<< However, I only skimmed through it. Perhaps you should just look to see if they are (1) Military leaders, (2) If they have miracles attributed to them >>

I was wondering how Fr. Brown could say there is no evidence for any of them, while N.T. Wright claims there are 15. I guess its because there is so little evidence for the other claimants. But I’ll look into this further…

Phil P
 
Dear Phil,

In A Marginal Jew, Fr.Brown’s buddy Fr.Meier agrees that there weren’t other “Messianic Claimants” at the time of Jesus. He goes so far as to say that there weren’t even other “Miracle workers” at the time, or at least to the same degree as Jesus. He goes through various ancient figures and explains why they can’t be regarded as messiahs or miracle workers.
Admittedly I was shocked because Discovery channel and History Channel always say there were other contenders.
I am at a loss to explain Bishop Wright’s words on the matter.
 
PhilVaz said:
There is a contradiction I’ve found between two reputable biblical scholars: N.T. Wright and Raymond Brown. Were there other messianic claimants during the lifetime of Jesus? I am currently looking into the dumb "The God Who Wasn’t There" movie with an electron microscope (the movie says Christians don’t examine or even heard of these things, oh yeah? ). But I’d like to resolve this one:

N.T. Wright: “And my fifth point, therefore, is that Jesus was – in and through, and in the middle of all of that – a messianic claimant. As a historian, one must say I believe, Jesus was claiming to be the true, anointed leader…And there were plenty of other first-century Jews who thought that they were God’s anointed. The classic example, actually on into the second century is Simon ben Kosiba who was hailed as the ‘son of the star’ Bar Kochba, by no less than the great Rabbi Aqiba himself. It wasn’t an odd thing for Jews to think that maybe they were the Lord’s anointed. There are – I count roughly 15 messianic or quasi-messianic movements between about 50 B.C. and 150 A.D. And Jesus is right in the middle of that.” (from "Jesus of Myth and History" 1995 talk at Yale, see minute 17 to 19 in the MP3 file for the above quote)

Raymond Brown: “Since the ‘Messiah’ issue will appear in the discussion to follow, some fictions need to be laid to rest. One encounters the affirmation that there were many would-be messiahs in Palestine at this time. In fact there is no evidence that any Jew claimed or was said to be the Messiah before Jesus of Nazareth (or until a century after his death). Thus one must offer an explanation for the unanimity attested in the NT that Jesus was the Christ (Messiah).” (Raymond Brown, his massive Introduction to the New Testament, page 820 note 6, then mentions Ben Witherington, M. de Jonge, J.D.G. Dunn, J.H. Charlesworth, P. Stuhlmacher, and finally N.T. Wright on “very important scholars posit an affirmation or confession of messiahship during Jesus’ lifetime”)

My question is, were there many “messianic movements” and claims to be the Messiah shortly before and during Jesus’ lifetime? Wright says there were about 15, while Fr. Brown says there were none or no evidence for others besides Jesus.

This article seems to list a couple. How would you resolve this?

Phil P
Click to expand...
It is well-known that there were many different messianic sects of Judaism at the time of Yeshua. Father Brown is ignoring all of the historical evidence in Jewish writing.
 
I think one author is speaking of the concept of Yeshua Ben Joseph ** while the other is speaking of messianic concept of Yeshua Ben David. One is the suffering Messiah, the other is the truimpet warrior messiah**. I forget which is which. So, one author can say that there were no others claiming to be the suffering messiah, while the other can document those claiming to be the warrior messiah. Acts 5 in fact speaks of two the many warrior messiah claimanits.

google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Yeshua+Ben++Joseph++Yeshua+Ben+David+trumpet+suffering&spell=1

Acts 5

34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36Some time ago **Theudas **appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, **Judas **the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.
Theudas (about 45 CE)
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.97-98 and Acts of the apostles 5.36.
Click to expand...
Story: Between 44 and 46 CE, one Theudas, about whom Josephus is predictably negative, caused some consternation with what may have been a claim to be the Messiah.
Click to expand...
livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants08.html
Judas the Galilean (6 CE)
Click to expand...
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433 and Jewish Antiquities 18.1-10 and 18.23; Acts of the apostles 5.37.
Click to expand...
livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants04.html
Messianic claimants
…
  1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
  2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
  3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
  4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
  5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
  6. Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE)
  7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
  8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
  9. Theudas (45 CE)
  10. The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
  11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
  12. Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE)
  13. John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
  14. Vespasian (67 CE)
  15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
  16. Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE)
  17. Lukuas (115 CE)
  18. Simon ben Kosiba (132-135)
  19. Moses of Crete (448)
Click to expand...
livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants00.html
 
In fact, Brown is known for his two volumes on the Death of the Messiah and his one volume Birth of the Messiah, so I would expect, that Brown’s comments concerning others claiming to be the Messiah would most likely be referring to the suffering messiah in context.

Does this make sense?

😉
 
Ah ha thank you. They are perhaps talking about two different things. I am currently studying the whole “historical Jesus” subject in response to Doherty’s dumb book :whacky:

These should do the trick…

Fabricating Jesus by Evans
Studying the Historical Jesus by Bock
Jesus and the Victory of God by Wright
Jesus Outside the New Testament by Voorst
NT Documents: Are They Reliable? by Bruce

I already have Blomberg, and two Catholic authors: Luke Timothy Johnson, and Raymond Brown. Good stuff.

Phil P
 
I think this is a rather interesting topic and can give us a little insight into the workings of modern biblical scholarship and the its use of the “Historical Critical” method in a positive sense.

Perhaps I am injecting my own prejudice on this subject, however, I do not see the views of Brown and Wright as that contraditory. If any thing I see it more as a diologue into what was the general understanding of the role and meaning of “Messiah” as understood in first century Jewish thought. And if there was a general consensus of thought, how did Jesus fit into this understanding or how de he totally transend a general belief ( which may help us better understand the great “Markan Secret”).

Which I also found interesting about Fr. Brown’s comments as quoted in another post, is the context from which this footnote (no.6) was taken. It was from an appendix of his work “Introduction to the New Testament”. This appendix’s theme was on the Historical Critical method. What I found to be really interesting was Rev. Brown’s criticism of many who have made HC the be all and end all (my words) of biblical scholarship that has led to the “Jesus Seminar” movement. I think many in this forum would be surprized by Fr. Brown’s words.

As this discussion continues I think we should remember the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI. Biblical scholarship, in all its forms and disciplines is an important tool. But it is just a tool for Theological exegesis which is the right and responsibility of the Magisterium. Biblical scholarship can only give us an understanding of the past (which is important) but the Theological Exegesis of the Church’s Magisterium makes Salvation History present and understandable to us today and only this can point to our true future. (By the way, the more I read our Pope’s works the more I am convinced Benedict’s papalcy is Pope John Paul II first great miracle).
 
Phil,

Acts 5:33-37 mentions two other movements (Theudas and Judas the Galilean), either of which might have been messianic in nature. A speaker in the Sanhedrin was comparing the early Church to the two movements.
  • Liberian
 
<< Phil, Acts 5:33-37 mentions two other movements (Theudas and Judas the Galilean) >>

Ah ha! I just remembered there is also mention in the NT itself of “other or false Christs” and “many saying I am the Christ” (Matt 24 and elsewhere). Another book to add to my list is Jesus Under Fire by evangelical scholars.

Phil P
 
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