Contradiction With Dogma Regarding Baptism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Curious_Convert
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
BTW Dr. Ott’s book is not an official document of the Church the CCC is an official one.
That is like pointing out the yellow pages isn’t a phone. It isn’t itself an official church document but it is a compendium of defined Dogma, up to the point of it’s writing, which references the appropriate documents on every page. I agree however that the English translation of his explanation of this matter is in error, the referenced documents don’t support his apparent inadvertent omission of the baptism of desire.
 
That is like pointing out the yellow pages isn’t a phone…
:confused:
…It isn’t itself an official church document but it is a compendium of defined Dogma, up to the point of it’s writing, which references the appropriate documents on every page. I agree however that the English translation of his explanation of this matter is in error, the referenced documents don’t support his apparent inadvertent omission of the baptism of desire.
If you read my other posts you can understand why I made that comment.
 


“Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.” (excerpt from Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

I know that God is not bound to work only in the normative means of grace, but I still don’t understand how water baptism can be necessary for “all men without exception,” if it is not necessary for those who receive ‘BOD’ or ‘BOB’. In other words, if it is really true to say that all men without exception require X to get Y, how can some get Y without X? What about the law of non-contradiction? …
Hello Curious Convert,

What Ott says, and what the Church says, it simply what the Lord said to Nicodemus: unless you are born again of water and the Spirit, you cannot have eternal life. Yet, from the beginning, the Church has accepted the fact that there are people who are saved without water baptism.

Do you have Ott’s book in front of you? If not, right after he says what you quoted, he speaks of the baptism of desire and blood under the heading “Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism.”

There is no contradiction when the entirety of Ott’s (and the Church’s) presentation of the necessity of baptism is considered.

Dan
 

  1. *]The Sacrament of Baptism
    *] Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ. (De fide.)
    *] The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water. (De fide.)
    *] The materia proxima of the Sacrament of Baptism is the ablution, by physical contact, of the body with water. (Sent. certa.)
    *] The form of Baptism consists in the words of the minister which accompany it and more closely determine it.
    *] Baptism confers the grace of justification. (De fide.)
    *] Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal. (De fide.)
    *] Eve if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot be repeated. (De fide.)
    *] Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.)
    *] Baptism can be validly administered by anyone. (De fide.)
    *] Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised. (De fide.)
    *] The Baptism of young children is valid and licit. (De fide.)
 

  1. *]The Sacrament of Baptism
    *]Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ. (De fide.)
    *]The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water. (De fide.)
    *]The materia proxima of the Sacrament of Baptism is the ablution, by physical contact, of the body with water. (Sent. certa.)
    *]The form of Baptism consists in the words of the minister which accompany it and more closely determine it.
    *]Baptism confers the grace of justification. (De fide.)
    *]Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal. (De fide.)
    *]Eve if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot be repeated. (De fide.)
    *]Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.)
    *]Baptism can be validly administered by anyone. (De fide.)
    *]Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised. (De fide.)
    *]The Baptism of young children is valid and licit. (De fide.)

  1. Thank you

    Post 21 mentions the section Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism which follows this. Will you post that section?
 
Thanks for the links and posts. I had already read that substitute section and I personally understand and affirm the substitutes. Still, the substitutes are not defined dogma. My concern was that a dogmatic statement cannot be altered or contradicted. If that is an accurate translation of the phrase in question, then there are no exceptions, end of story (God would not contradict a defined dogma that He revealed). I understand that the Church and Mr. Ott interpret the dogma differently and I do as well. There are still some ultra-traditionalists who hold to the ‘rigorist’ interpretation, but that is not the view of the Magisterium.
 
Thanks for the links and posts. I had already read that substitute section and I personally understand and affirm the substitutes. Still, the substitutes are not defined dogma. My concern was that a dogmatic statement cannot be altered or contradicted. If that is an accurate translation of the phrase in question, then there are no exceptions, end of story (God would not contradict a defined dogma that He revealed). I understand that the Church and Mr. Ott interpret the dogma differently and I do as well. There are still some ultra-traditionalists who hold to the ‘rigorist’ interpretation, but that is not the view of the Magisterium.
A dogmatic statement cannot be contradicted but it can still undergo further development.
 
Thanks for the links and posts. I had already read that substitute section and I personally understand and affirm the substitutes. Still, the substitutes are not defined dogma. My concern was that a dogmatic statement cannot be altered or contradicted. If that is an accurate translation of the phrase in question, then there are no exceptions, end of story (God would not contradict a defined dogma that He revealed). I understand that the Church and Mr. Ott interpret the dogma differently and I do as well. There are still some ultra-traditionalists who hold to the ‘rigorist’ interpretation, but that is not the view of the Magisterium.
I think that there may be a mix-up of terminology when referring to a “dogmatic statement.” To me, this sounds like the normal adjective dogmatic which can apply to anything.

Compare CCC 66 with CCC 84-95. Check the cross-references in the margins and the other listings for dogma in the Index. The Index has a “page” of references for Baptism plus the cross-references in the margins. Also check the Glossary.

Perhaps the issue is semantics in regard to the fact that over centuries, the Catholic Church has made what was Divinely revealed more explicit or developed. (CCC 66) Furthermore, one needs to check related doctrines which would expand on the word necessary as to how that can be accomplished in various circumstances.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition is not like Google.
 
Thanks for the links and posts. I had already read that substitute section and I personally understand and affirm the substitutes. Still, the substitutes are not defined dogma. My concern was that a dogmatic statement cannot be altered or contradicted. If that is an accurate translation of the phrase in question, then there are no exceptions, end of story (God would not contradict a defined dogma that He revealed). I understand that the Church and Mr. Ott interpret the dogma differently and I do as well. There are still some ultra-traditionalists who hold to the ‘rigorist’ interpretation, but that is not the view of the Magisterium.
The point is, Ludwig Ott is not some sort of primal font of dogmata. Theologically, he’s a nobody. He got them from somewhere – and there ought to be a citation, but in this case, from the wording, it looks like a mashup of a couple of different things that were promulgated at Trent. Now the Council Fathers assembled at Trent were not fools; they did not decree in January 1547 that “the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof” was what was necessary, and then in March 1547 condemn the idea “that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism,” without a full understanding that these statements were in harmony.

There are two great risks in proceeding from this point, which must be thoroughly avoided. First, we cannot approach these documents like a Protestant; that is to say, with private interpretation and a sola scriptura attitude. It is not up to us to investigate dogmatic documents for ourselves, become armchair theologians, and then settle on their meaning. This is the great error of fundamentalist-traditionalists, who say on every question, “I must determine from my own studies what Tradition says, and then I will be able to decide whether the modern Church is in accordance with that truth.” Replace “Tradition” with “Scripture” and you can see the error.

Second, we cannot examine declarations from centuries ago – and, especially, prooftext them --as though they were necessarily written to answer the questions that we are interested in today. If Trent had actually been trying to speak on the topic of whether a catechumen or martyr could be saved through BoB and BoD without having had a literal baptism, then a statement like “true and natural water is … of necessity” might be conclusive. In reality, however, Trent was responding to several centuries of ongoing heresies which held that people could or must be baptized in other ways, including Catharism (which denied that the sacrament was necessary, but had a rite of baptism by fire), Waldensianism (baptism by the spirit), and the Flagellants (baptism by one’s own literal blood shed through penitential scourging).

Trent’s declarations make much better sense viewed in the appropriate historical and theological context. The statement “water baptism is necessary” is a response to the heresies that say that the sacrament of baptism doesn’t exist or that people should be sacramentally baptized in other ways. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether catechumens and martyrs can be saved without having yet had baptism in a non-sacramental process which we metaphorically call “Baptism of Blood” or “Baptism of Desire,” as you can tell by the fact that elsewhere Trent fully acknowledged that truth.

This all, certainly, points to the fact that more precise language could probably have been chosen in drafting the canons of Trent. (Vatican II always comes under fire from ultra-traditionalists for its “ambiguity,” but it certainly has no monopoly on that failing.) Unless Ott is quoting something I’m not aware of, he deserves even more criticism for combining portions of two separate decrees, which ought to be understood in their respective contexts, and presenting them as one.
 
Great points everybody. I definitely see the parallels now between fundamentalist’s treatment of scripture and the ultra-traditionalists’ rejection of Vatican 2, BOD, and BOB. I will steer far away from that error.
 
Good points Christiano.

I also agree that Ott is not the final authority on defined dogma, but what source is there that is more authoritative? Again, I affirm the teaching of the Catechism as ordinary, authentic, and authoritative, but I have not personally found a list of exactly what has been dogmatically defined in the Catechism itself. Does it list what is dogmatically defined?

Since the Church teaches that the Holy Spirit enables the Church to permanently define dogma, I would expect that the Church would also provide a more ‘official’ document concerning which truths have been dogmatically defined so that there would be no confusion and possible misrepresentation as some say is possible with the work of Mr. Ott. What is the point of defining dogma in a permanent manner and then keeping that official definition discrete in regards to its permanent and binding authority? Is that not what is happening by not issuing an ‘official list’? Many non-Catholics frequently wonder this as well…
I’m assuming you have Dr. Ott’s book. There are a couple things to note:
  1. Where he gives the teaching in bold print right at the start, note that the English translation says “Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation…”
    “Fluminis” is not the Latin word for “water”. (rather, “aqua” is)
    The Latin dictionary I have gives the following meanings for “flumen”:
  2. “flowing”, hence a river. (but note, the actual meaning is “flowing”)
  3. (figurative): a “stream” of blood, tears, words, etc.
It’s interesting to note that it is the same word that is used in John 7:38:
“qui credit in me sicut dixit scriptura** flumina **de ventre eius fluent aquae vivae”
“He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’”
(flumina is the word translated as “flow”: aquae is translated “water”.)
I also find it interesting that this Scripture passage refers to the Holy Spirit.

I think the Latin words (Baptismus fluminis) were probably included precisely because they knew “water” wasn’t a literal translation of “fluminis”. Translators probably couldn’t find a single English word that gave a good literal translation.
  1. The bold print that starts each chapter is often Dr. Ott putting a negative anathema statement into it’s positive form or he may give a single statement that covers more than one statement on the topic where the wording wasn’t identical. You have to read the background text below to find the places where he directly quotes the actual Church documents.
Please note in his text on this De fide statement he says that the Council of Trent declared that after the promulgation… there could be no justification without Baptism or the desire for the same. This is the official Church teaching and that is the teaching he meant to convey with his opening statement of the dogma.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top