H
hurst
Guest
Gottle of Geer:
When we write, the appearance on paper is affected by the pen or pencil, its quality, type of ink, color, thickness, smoothness, etc. These will affect the manner it shows up, but it still conveys our message; it is our writing nonetheless.
Or do you think dictation implies we should witness the most perfect expression of the language used?
(Sidenote: the image of Our Lady of Guadelupe is a miraculous image, and yet it has the look and feel of a painting made by a regular painter.)
Gottle of Geer:
Leo XIII: “It is futile to argue that the Holy Spirit took human beings as his instruments in writing, implying that some error could slip in…For by his supernatural power he so stimulated and moved them to write, and so assisted them while they were writing, that they properly conceived in their mind, wished to write down faithfully, and expressed aptly with infallible truth all those things, and only those things, which He himself ordered; otherwise He could not Himself be the author of the whole of Sacred Scripture” (DS 3293)
St. Jerome "asserts that the Books of the Bible were composed at the inspiration, or suggestion, or even at the dictation of the Holy Spirit; even that they were written and edited by Him. Yet he never questions but that the individual authors of these Books worked in full freedom under the Divine afflatus, each of them in accordance with his individual nature and character. … "
SPIRITUS PARACLITUS, #8
I think you are limiting yourself by your own definition of “dictation”. It does not mean the agent was not free and conscious.
Dictate \Dic"tate, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Dictated; p. pr. & vb. n. Dictating.] [L. dictatus, p. p. of dictare, freq. of dicere to say. See Diction, and cf. Dight.] 1. To tell or utter so that another may write down; to inspire; to compose; as, to dictate a letter to an amanuensis.
John 15:15 I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.
Jesus was free and conscious - more so than anyone else, I’m sure we all would agree.
But when words are dictated by God, those are Words of Eternal Life! (Yes, even every “jot and tittle” - Matt 5:18). We have therein a glimpse of it. And it calls us to consider what the Beatific Vision must be like, where though we are free, we are so fixed on God, that we are animated and live by His every Word.
Matthew 4:4 Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
So I think what you are missing is that it is not an option whether it was dictated, and thus we must let our understanding of “dictated” be changed rather than deny whatever is meant. Keep in mind we only know the words of eternal life through the Son, Who receives them from the Father. They are revealed, and the authors who received this dictation put it into writing, being preserved from error in the process.
I don’t think the dictation always had to be in their language. God could simply enlighten them with a realization, or meaningful images, or gumption of speech. These would all qualify as dictation, because they are being given the revelation of God authoritatively in spirit and in truth, in which they freely cooperate while under the influence of the Holy Spirit (CCC 81).
hurst
If that is so, it would obviously be due to the fact that John’s Greek was inferior. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t dictated by the Holy Spirit.
When we write, the appearance on paper is affected by the pen or pencil, its quality, type of ink, color, thickness, smoothness, etc. These will affect the manner it shows up, but it still conveys our message; it is our writing nonetheless.
Or do you think dictation implies we should witness the most perfect expression of the language used?
(Sidenote: the image of Our Lady of Guadelupe is a miraculous image, and yet it has the look and feel of a painting made by a regular painter.)
Gottle of Geer:
Well, for one thing, you then set yourself against the thinking of the Church. Popes such as Leo XIII explicitly stated that Scripture was “dictated by the Holy Spirit”. Vatican I also explicitly stated this.
Leo XIII: “It is futile to argue that the Holy Spirit took human beings as his instruments in writing, implying that some error could slip in…For by his supernatural power he so stimulated and moved them to write, and so assisted them while they were writing, that they properly conceived in their mind, wished to write down faithfully, and expressed aptly with infallible truth all those things, and only those things, which He himself ordered; otherwise He could not Himself be the author of the whole of Sacred Scripture” (DS 3293)
St. Jerome "asserts that the Books of the Bible were composed at the inspiration, or suggestion, or even at the dictation of the Holy Spirit; even that they were written and edited by Him. Yet he never questions but that the individual authors of these Books worked in full freedom under the Divine afflatus, each of them in accordance with his individual nature and character. … "
SPIRITUS PARACLITUS, #8
I think you are limiting yourself by your own definition of “dictation”. It does not mean the agent was not free and conscious.
Dictate \Dic"tate, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Dictated; p. pr. & vb. n. Dictating.] [L. dictatus, p. p. of dictare, freq. of dicere to say. See Diction, and cf. Dight.] 1. To tell or utter so that another may write down; to inspire; to compose; as, to dictate a letter to an amanuensis.
- To say; to utter; to communicate authoritatively; to deliver (a command) to a subordinate; to declare with authority; to impose; as, to dictate the terms of a treaty; a general dictates orders to his troops.
Consider the fact that Our Father dictated to Our Lord what He should say…
John 15:15 I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.
Jesus was free and conscious - more so than anyone else, I’m sure we all would agree.
But when words are dictated by God, those are Words of Eternal Life! (Yes, even every “jot and tittle” - Matt 5:18). We have therein a glimpse of it. And it calls us to consider what the Beatific Vision must be like, where though we are free, we are so fixed on God, that we are animated and live by His every Word.
Matthew 4:4 Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
So I think what you are missing is that it is not an option whether it was dictated, and thus we must let our understanding of “dictated” be changed rather than deny whatever is meant. Keep in mind we only know the words of eternal life through the Son, Who receives them from the Father. They are revealed, and the authors who received this dictation put it into writing, being preserved from error in the process.
I don’t think the dictation always had to be in their language. God could simply enlighten them with a realization, or meaningful images, or gumption of speech. These would all qualify as dictation, because they are being given the revelation of God authoritatively in spirit and in truth, in which they freely cooperate while under the influence of the Holy Spirit (CCC 81).
hurst