Contradictions in the bible?

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stanley123:
and the chldren?
Are you saying you have a problem with the Lord commanding that the children be killed?

This is not a first. God commanded that the firstborn in Egypt be slain also, even of the animals.

Furthermore, in the flood all who were not in the ark were killed, including children, infants, and unborn children.

God has the right to do this. We don’t of ourselves have the right to do this, but Israel belonged to God and was used by God to execute His judgments on the nations. We must consider that God has His good reasons, even if we don’t yet understand them.

hurst
 
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hurst:
Are you saying you have a problem with the Lord commanding that the children be killed?
The question concerned whether there were contradictions in the Bible. I submitted the following as a possible contradiction:
  1. the commandment: Thou shalt not kill
  2. The commandment as referenced above to kill children.
 
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stanley123:
The question concerned whether there were contradictions in the Bible. I submitted the following as a possible contradiction:
  1. the commandment: Thou shalt not kill
  2. The commandment as referenced above to kill children.
Ok, I see. “Thou shalt not kill”, but later, “Thou must kill”.

I personally believe that most apparent contradictions are simply a sign of our own lack of understanding, and serve as a call to either not rely on ourselves so much, or to deepen our understanding.

In this case, the resolution lies in the fact that we are commanded to not kill on our own authority. That God later commands people to kill someone shows that they may do so as instruments in His work. We have no authority to kill anyone. But it might be given to us, in which case we must kill as an act of obedience or duty. This is the case when a soldier or policeman or executioner kill someone in the line of duty. (Of course, if they relish that fact and look forward to doing so with hatred, then they are sinning at the same time they do something legitimately - but that is another story).

hurst
 
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hurst:
Ok, I see. “Thou shalt not kill”, but later, “Thou must kill”.

I personally believe that most apparent contradictions are simply a sign of our own lack of understanding, and serve as a call to either not rely on ourselves so much, or to deepen our understanding.

In this case, the resolution lies in the fact that we are commanded to not kill on our own authority. That God later commands people to kill someone shows that they may do so as instruments in His work. We have no authority to kill anyone. But it might be given to us, in which case we must kill as an act of obedience or duty. This is the case when a soldier or policeman or executioner kill someone in the line of duty. (Of course, if they relish that fact and look forward to doing so with hatred, then they are sinning at the same time they do something legitimately - but that is another story).

hurst
Example, Exodus21:
12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
 
Catholic Dude:
Example, Exodus21:
12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
This reminds me of another post on this forum where a former baseball player admitted to ramming into a catcher on purpose to teach him a lesson. However, the catcher suffered serious injuries and later died in the hospital. So that is a case where one struck a man, but not with the intention of killing him.

In those days, God designated certain cities where such killers could take refuge.

Also, the case of “if a man schemes and kills” still falls under the category of doing something on one’s own authority, so to speak, which is obviously forbidden. So I see no real contradiction.

But still, we must be careful when pulling up some of these Mosaic Laws, because they are not in effect in the same manner as they used to be. Certainly we must fulfill the perfection of these laws, but in our hearts: (circumcision=have our hearts circumcized, don’t kill=don’t even be angry with our brother, don’t commit adultery=don’t lust in our hearts toward another, etc.), for Christ came to fulfill them, bring them to perfection.

For since Christ has been revealed, we now see the Old Testament as foreshadowing and being fulfilled in the New Testament.

Certainly, Christ did not see any problem with the apparent contradictions in the Old Testament. He said the “scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35). He even pointed to some apparent contradictions when addressing the Pharisees and others. Here is one example:

Matt 22:41 And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying: What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him: David’s. 43 He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying: 44 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word; neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

So, in conclusion, while there are certainly numerous apparent contradictions in Scripture, they only serve to highlight things that are hidden or more subtle. I leave you with this final quote:

Luke 10:21 In that same hour, he rejoiced in the Holy Ghost, and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to little ones. Yea, Father, for so it hath seemed good in thy sight.

hurst
 
Here is another example of a possible contradiction:
Thou shalt not kill and
Matthew 5: 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:
BUT
Luke 19, 27 But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me.
 
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clarkal:
Hi, Montie,

You have heard the apologetics for the alleged Biblical contradictions, but I would also consider reading what skeptics have to say in return. To start, I would recommend that you read some of the back issue articles from the Skeptical Review by Farrell Till. They can be found here: infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/index.shtml.

Also, browsing the Biblical Errancy and Biblical Criticism sections of the Internet Infidel’s library would also give you a general idea of the objections raised against the Bible’s alleged inerrancy. Those sections can be found here:

infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/errancy.html
infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/criticism.html.

Note: I don’t personally endorse every article, so I’m not going to defend some of them, but I pretty much agree with what Farrell Till writes.

Your Friendly Resident Atheist,

clarkal
do you really want to be responsible for undermining the faith of even one???

My friend, God loves you unconditionally…what keeps you from believing and loving Him?
 
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stanley123:
Here is another example of a possible contradiction:
Thou shalt not kill and
Matthew 5: 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:
BUT
Luke 19, 27 But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me.
If I were to give you a reasonable answer for every claim of contradiction you posted, would you believe? If so I would be willing to do what I could…

However, if not then I believe you have a problem of the will not the itnellect…and your heart is hard my friend…
 
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Anonymous_1:
…your heart is hard my friend…
What happened to Christian charity and love of your neighbor? I thought that the question was whether or not we see any possible examples of contradictions in the Bible. When I give a possible illustration of such, I am slandered and accused of having a hard heart. I would think that such personal slander would be off the topic of the thread.
 
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stanley123:
What happened to Christian charity and love of your neighbor? I thought that the question was whether or not we see any possible examples of contradictions in the Bible. When I give a possible illustration of such, I am slandered and accused of having a hard heart. I would think that such personal slander would be off the topic of the thread.
You did not follow what I said…
read it again
If I were to give you a reasonable answer for every claim of contradiction you posted, would you believe? If so I would be willing to do what I could…
However, if not then I believe you have a problem of the will not the itnellect…and your heart is hard my friend…
I placed a condition on what i said by saying if all of these contradictions were reasonably refutted and you still would not believe, then your heart is hard…

When I say a hardened heart I mean a closed mind…is that uncharitable to say someone is close minded? What if it is true?

Anyway i wasn’t simply referring to the fact that you listed possible contradictions…
i was just wondering the purpose/disposition behind those posts…was it to disprove the Bible or to grow in understanding…
 
Hi Clarkal.

Im sure you’ll agree that it is wrong to place accusations of errors within a document unless the original text is viewed.

Unfortunately, we do not have the original manuscripts available and thus, technically we cannot guarantee the inerrancy of the bibles floating around today.

In addition, as im sure you are aware, there are many different translations of the bible even into just one language. Such it is that some people change little bits here and there to fit their doctrine.

Thus, i feel it is unfair to really criticize the bible on small points, i.e varying number descriptions, different geneolagies, etc…

However, what i do think is appropriate to discuss is the percieved “philisophical errors” so to speak. Such as the one you described pointing out the evident contradiction between God’s command “Thou shall not kill” and his order for other humans to kill.

I think these kind of topics come down to ultimately a simple matter - God, in his inifinte wisdom, always has the trump card. When we read two opposing views in scripture, we may be tempted to discredit the whole thing based on one error. However, not only is it rash to do so, sometimes the answer is even more intriguing than simply dismissing the article.

Thus, let me attempt to expand on the issue concerning Gods command to kill children as being morally acceptable and thus not going against the command “Thou shall not kill”.

Let me begin by pointing out that sometimes we do not see the bigger picture straight away. I feel this is the case here. Man has so changed in the 20th century that we do not regard God as a being whom we must submit to, but one who must conform to our moral standards. Thus, killing a child can and does seem harsh in our modern society (for that matter, it would even have been considered wrong 2000 years ago). However, we are missing many different pieces of the puzzle which are required to see the bigger picture.

First of all, it was held as a universal belief that life was a gift from God. Although we have forgotten that in contemporary times, it was a belief firmly held by every devout Jew. Life was a gift from God that could be taken away at any point.

Secondly, those who followed Gods law were prosperous and those who sinned against God would face his wrath, so to speak. The wages of sin are death.

Once we begin to see life as a gift from God we can begin to understand why he would command his chosen people to destroy all those who were sinning against Him. However, this still leaves problems with killing children, who, were in such a society through no fault of their own, and probably didnt deliberately choose to disobey Gods law.

The answer lies in the NT. When questioned about who had caused a mans blindness the Pharisees asked Christ if his parents sins had caused the illness.

This reveals an important clue. That children were sometimes to receive the effects of their parents sin. Does it seem unfair? Yes. However, God is infinitely wise, such a thing would only be done in order to bring back the children to Him, if you follow.

Thus, we can see that sometimes God punished the children and not the parent for a sin committed by the parent.

And therefore, it can be followed through that the killing of children was an effect of their parents sin.

Now, to an atheist this may seem like a horror, a genocide of pure evil. However, you are off the mark. For Christ Himself taught us that it is not this life that we should prepare for but the next.

And thus, we can conclude two things.
  1. That life is a gift from God, that can be taken at any point. Technically, since one cannot argue when childhood ends, it is not inherently wrong for God to slay all people. It would be worse if he had killed people according to their age, no? One would be accusing Him of being a favouritist.
  2. Since life is focused on our eternal life, and not on our earthyl life, God spared the children two things. The horror of offending Him with sin. And secondly the prospect of eternal hellfire for they were not at the age of reason (this changes for different people).
We can conclude therefore that in such a circumstance, the method of killing was brutal yes, but it was Gods will. I am sure you would have had a problem if he given them all aids and let them slowly die. Besides, he wanted them to cease offending Him. And secondly, in the unfortunate circumstance that God would order the killing of a certain people, unless he did order a universal killing, it would have been unfair in itself to allow children to live. When does one cease to become a child? Too many problems associated with this one.

In Christ.

Andre.

p.s I know ive meandered about a little. But if you have any specific questions, shoot.
 
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RobNY:
Unfortunately, that isn’t true.

**107 **The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

You may respond, “for the sake of our salvation,” but it is clearly parenthical. “and without error teach that truth which God wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures,” the reason being for our salvation, not as a modifier to what is truthful in the Biblical accounts.

Also see: Divino Afflante Spiritu, Providentissimus Deus

Excerpts from Divino Afflante Spiritu:

Also, from Providentissimus Deus:

If dictated by the Holy Spirit, then to make accounts unreconcilable would be nonsense.

It would leave this unexplained:​

  • 1Cor 1:14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga’ius;
  • 1Cor 1:15 lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.
  • 1Cor 1:16 (I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)
I’ve been curious as to how we reconcile the various biblical discrepancies myself, and I hope someone can give us a hand here.

The discrepancies are of many kinds - it depends what you have in mind 🙂

Are you thinking of people’s names, the reigns of kings, or what ? Moral issues, perhaps ?

Dictation raises endless problems: such as differences in style. Logically, it should reduce Jesus to a robot - it’s inconsistent for Him to be living and thinking & speaking as a normal conscious being, and not for the composers of the NT to be conscious human beings too. Dictation reduces inspiration to automatic writing - it makes the NT to be composed in a less than human way. ##
 
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stanley123:
Thou shalt not kill but:
"The LORD said to Moses, 'Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites… The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps… (Moses ordered) “Now kill all that are of the male sex, even of the children. And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” Numbers 31: 1-18

Exodus 20 forbids homicide 1 - it does not forbid holy war. There is no contradiction between forbidding murder, and commanding the extermination of an enemy people.​

Whether these commands were God’s, is another matter. People receive according to their capacity - which is why one would not try teaching three-year olds about sub-atomic physics: they would lack the capacity to receive what was taught. Just as they would lack the capacity to drink a Martini or or double whisky - those are fine in themselves, but not for infants.

The same applies to learning God’s Will - we learn and receive according to our capacity to do so. So what we perceive as God’s Will, may be a very imperfect expression of it. Which is why Christians cannot take the less Christian parts of the Bible as a rule of life - they are measured by how well they resemble Christ, Who is God’s full revelation of God, the yardstick by which all else is measured.

Israel learned about God in the same way, going from lesser undertanding of Who God was, to a fuller appreciation of Him - which why revelation is progressive & dynamic, not static, until it is perfected & completed in Christ. ##
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## It would leave this unexplained:
  • 1Cor 1:14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga’ius;
  • 1Cor 1:15 lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.
  • 1Cor 1:16 (I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)

Isn’t this the one, “Is Christ divided?” This was because they were making factions based on who baptized who, so he was grateful that he didn’t baptize them, because it would have just let them bicker on his account. But wait, what was the problem with this one? Paul’s professing not to know whether he baptized anyone else? Oh wait, I see, “I didn’t baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius… I did also baptize the household of Stephanas.” What is your explanation for it?

The discrepancies are of many kinds - it depends what you have in mind 🙂

Are you thinking of people’s names, the reigns of kings, or what ? Moral issues, perhaps ?
First in the ‘hard’ discrepancies, i.e., the differences in numbers (reigns, etc…), and then on the seeming mistakes (like the one with Quirinius, although I’ve read things that supposedly resolve it), and then gradually to the softer discrepancies. I can’t even remember the ones that bothered my anymore.
Dictation raises endless problems: such as differences in style. Logically, it should reduce Jesus to a robot - it’s inconsistent for Him to be living and thinking & speaking as a normal conscious being, and not for the composers of the NT to be conscious human beings too. Dictation reduces inspiration to automatic writing - it makes the NT to be composed in a less than human way. ##
Yes, but if it is dictation concurrently with the human writers writing to their full ability… well, hrm, it’s a hard idea to grasp. The idea is that the Holy Spirit and the human writers were both writers, and, well, it’s one of those things that I’ll be darned if I can get a grasp on.
 
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RobNY:
Isn’t this the one, “Is Christ divided?”

That’s the one

This was because they were making factions based on who baptized who, so he was grateful that he didn’t baptize them, because it would have just let them bicker on his account. But wait, what was the problem with this one? Paul’s professing not to know whether he baptized anyone else? Oh wait, I see, “I didn’t baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius… I did also baptize the household of Stephanas.” What is your explanation for it?

That inspiration may be a varied reality - there may be several species of inspiration, working differently according to all the details of wh and what each person is. Inspiration might work one way for a book which took decades or centuries to reach its canonical form, and another way, for another person or text. There is too much detail needing looking at, for sweeping generalisations to be very helpful, I think.​

To say “Book X is inspired” is the end of an immensely detailed process of development: of Israel, of her neighbours (so that they influenced particular Israelites in particular ways; Ezekiel would have been a different book, if the prophet had not been take captive to Babylon, when he was). Millions of contingencies lead to any one particular thing, and the Bible’s particulars are no exception. Had St.Paul not entered Europe, we might not be Christians. ##
First in the ‘hard’ discrepancies, i.e., the differences in numbers (reigns, etc…), and then on the seeming mistakes (like the one with Quirinius, although I’ve read things that supposedly resolve it), and then gradually to the softer discrepancies. I can’t even remember the ones that bothered my anymore.

Yes, but if it is dictation concurrently with the human writers writing to their full ability… well, hrm, it’s a hard idea to grasp. The idea is that the Holy Spirit and the human writers were both writers, and, well, it’s one of those things that I’ll be darned if I can get a grasp on.

If dictation is not dictation except in name, then calling it dictation is unhelpful, I think. It would be helpful to know whether in Providentissimus Leo XIII meant dictation in the strict sense - he may not have. Words which can be used in a strict sense, are not always in that sense.​

The Holy Spirit is the Primary Author of the books - but not in a way which involves writing ##
 
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b_justb:
The day of Jesus’ execution is different in John than it is in the synoptics.
Actually that’s a common misconception. The first two days of the Passover are feasts, so the fact that the people had to prepare for the feast on the day of Jesus’ execution in John does not negate it being the second day of Passover. What’s more, it would have been the Sabbath of Passover, which itself is a special day of celebration regardless. The first day is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the second day is the Pilgrim’s Feast. If the Last Supper had been the night before the First Seder of Passover, Jesus would not have joined in the meal, as the first-born son of a Jewish family must fast the day before Passover begins.

Peace and God bless!
 
referring bak to what stanley said about luke 19:27 “but bring here those enemys of mine who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them” MY ANSWER TO THAT IS you have manipulated it to sound as if jesus was ordering the death of people. if you took the time to read the every verse befor it, its not that hard to understand that jesus was refering to the afterlife. and yes in the afterlife those who didnt follow him will be slain.by slain he means sent to hell. Stanley i would like you to read the whole page and then if u think im wrong then write ur rebuttal( i know im not always right) but i believe i am in this case. 😃
 
Gottle of Geer:

If dictation is not dictation except in name, then calling it dictation is unhelpful, I think. It would be helpful to know whether in Providentissimus Leo XIII meant dictation in the strict sense - he may not have. Words which can be used in a strict sense, are not always in that sense.​

The Holy Spirit is the Primary Author of the books - but not in a way which involves writing ##
Michael,

I think you really miss the power of God. Our very existence is from Him. Our very personality is from Him. He could dictate every molecule of ink if He so desired, and it would be so personal, so insightful, and so naturally associated to His servant, that it would even impress the writer. God’s grace does not destroy our nature - it elevates it! Even as God became man, and was both God and man. Or even as the host is transubstantiated. These things are mysteries, but very real.
  1. The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God’s word and of Christ’s body
Dei Verbum
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

I think it is a real mistake to think that God dictating something has to result in something robotic or monotone-alien-intelligence. Imagine a very personal relationship you have with someone, and add lots of graces in every action, perception, and utterance. Imagine moving, speaking, and looking within the realm of heaven. That is what it is like, to some extent! Scripture is Divine, embodied in the human. It also applies when they are read out loud in the midst of the body of believers, if I recall correctly.

When I read your objection about the verses regarding who Paul baptised, I was struck with such love for God for His personal touch, that He wanted that to be in Holy Scripture. There is something to that, for it has been kept for 2000 years through various civilizations etc. Even if there are differences regarding the exact translation, it still remains that He comments on things like that. God wanted that in there. It is important for our salvation somehow. The Bible is not robotic enunciations of truisms. It has personalities because God is living in them. Wow.

hurst
 
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hurst:
Michael,

I think you really miss the power of God. Our very existence is from Him. Our very personality is from Him.

I won’t argue with those two last points 🙂 - and I don’t think I do miss it. On the contrary: I believe that God does act.​

He could dictate every molecule of ink if He so desired, and it would be so personal, so insightful, and so naturally associated to His servant, that it would even impress the writer. God’s grace does not destroy our nature - it elevates it! Even as God became man, and was both God and man. Or even as the host is transubstantiated. These things are mysteries, but very real.

IOW, a really divine action won’t destroy nature. It’s because I believe that it elevates it, as you do, that I don’t believe in a theory of Divine dictation - that is incompatible with the style and individual details in the books. If the Spirit of God dictated Revelation as well as Romans, why is the Greek of Revelation so much inferior to that of St. Paul in that Romans ? The present Pope’s style is very different from that of his predecessor; but no one doubts they are governed by the same God - so why can the compilers of the Bible not be as free from dictation as they - presumably - are ? Or does dictation make the Bible truer ? I don’t see how: God could perfectly well have created a world and a Paul & John such that they freely, consciously, without dictation, compiled whatever was needed for their writings to be as God Willed; I believe that is what happened 🙂

  1. The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God’s word and of Christ’s body
Dei Verbum
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

I’m not questioning Dei Verbum - I’m questioning a notion of inspiration which speaks of dictation when it describes something entirely different - it’s like calling something a sausage, while ascribing to it the characteristics of a carrot 🙂

I think it is a real mistake to think that God dictating something has to result in something robotic or monotone-alien-intelligence. Imagine a very personal relationship you have with someone, and add lots of graces in every action, perception, and utterance. Imagine moving, speaking, and looking within the realm of heaven. That is what it is like, to some extent! Scripture is Divine, embodied in the human. It also applies when they are read out loud in the midst of the body of believers, if I recall correctly.

But that does not sound like dictation - if I’m missing something, please by all means tell me what​

When I read your objection about the verses regarding who Paul baptised, I was struck with such love for God for His personal touch, that He wanted that to be in Holy Scripture. There is something to that, for it has been kept for 2000 years through various civilizations etc. Even if there are differences regarding the exact translation, it still remains that He comments on things like that. God wanted that in there. It is important for our salvation somehow. The Bible is not robotic enunciations of truisms. It has personalities because God is living in them. Wow.

Fair enough - but that does not fit a dictation-theory very well - it fits a theory that Paul was a free, conscious agent, correcting his first thoughts as needed. It doesn’t make 1 Corinthians any less God’s work.​

 
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