Contradictions witin Catholicism vs contradictions within Mormonism

[Jerusha]

That being said, there is no first order contradiction within your post. There is nothing that defies logic for God to produce a book that leads fallen humans to do things that are not in alignment with God’s will.
There are some logical problems of evil that are far better stated than your “if BOM from God, if God good, why do people do bad thing and say look at BOM.” I hope to rap up here, but I may fail.
Charity, TOm

I did not say that the BOM is good. Part of the BOM is nothing other than Satanic. Some of the BOM is good. That is the problem when multiple conflicting sources are knit together to form a hilariously conflicting whole.

Much worse than the Bible in that respect.

I will read that article.

 

[Jerusha]

On first reading, it seems to be much like your own apologetics— theobabble. I will take a look at it later, to see what sense I can make of it.

However, Mormons have a tendency to limit God. In the example of a woman who never had a chance to know Jesus, and JS’s raction to that problem:

1. Those who live and die without having a chance to respond positively to the gospel of Jesus Christ will have that chance postmortemly.
   Thank God for Joseph Smith! And not merely for resolving one more thorny problem of evil–which he surely did (or, God did, through him)–but for being the instrument through whom God restored the knowledge and priesthood powers that make the redemption of the dead possible. Elder John Taylor wrote truly when he penned these words: “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it” (D&C 135:3).

Again, your God has limits. An all-knowing, omnipotent God would know whether a person, given a chance, would become Christian. No need to give them another chance in the afterlife.

 

[mfbukowski]

All,
I hope to shotgun a few comments here to tie up some loose ends.

MFBukowski,
I really liked your post about Heraclitus. I think you have hit upon a very important truth. In addition to “creation ex nihilo” it is the commitment to a type of philosophy that has created big problems.
Catholic priest Father Thomas Hosinski claims in **** Stubborn Fact**** and Creative Advance: An Introduction to the Metaphysics of Alfred North Whitehead that Aristotelian metaphysics produces profound difficulties with subject vs. object knowledge (leading to such horrors as Postmodernism). For this reason alone I would suggest there is warrant for re-visioning the underlying metaphysics that have produced such conundrums (that or perhaps we should be Postmodernists). And theologically if Aristotelian concepts of subjects and absolute perfection result in impassibility of a loving God, then there are theological reason to re-vision the underlying metaphysics.
Anyway, Father Hosinski’s book is the best intro to Whiteheadian metaphysics I have found. Ostler in his Exploring Mormon Thought series shows where very early LDS thought spoke of concepts later introduced by Whitehead and integral to Process Theology. Ostler while quite familiar with the philosophy of the councils has much sympathy (and I think generally builds upon IMO) Whiteheadian metaphysics rather than Aristotelian (or Platonic / neo-Platonic).
For more philosophy with a little theology Father Hosinski’s book is very good. For lots of LDS theology with philosophy, Ostler’s books are very good. I think he steers clear of some of the pitfalls of process theology while taking advantage of many of the opportunities presented. I have not read anything specifically by Hartshorne, but I think I should.

All,
I hope to rap up here, but I may fail.
Charity, TOm

Thanks for the comments - I don’t know Ostler’s work but you have mentioned it before and I will definitely check it out.

My education in LDS theology is non existent since I have never been in the BYU milieu and it is getting lonely out here!

I have done some study of Whitehead and Hartshorne, but my strength is in Dewey, James and Wittgenstein. None of these latter ones really have any theology.

Another one you should check out if you haven’t, if you are interested in this process direction, is Teilhard de Chardin.

I think it is becoming clear that we need to make a break with the creedal theology of the past if we are ever to come into our own as an intellectual community. We are a post modern church operating with a 13th century approach, and that is just not going to work.

Catch you next time around!

 

[why_me]

I did not say that the BOM is good. Part of the BOM is nothing other than Satanic. Some of the BOM is good. That is the problem when multiple conflicting sources are knit together to form a hilariously conflicting whole.

Much worse than the Bible in that respect.

I will read that article.

Here is the main contradiction: Mormonism has been a force for good in this world. And yet, you claim more or less that the book of mormon is satanic. See the contradiction? Mormonism stands up for god and for keeping his commandments. It also stands up for family and for making society a healthy organism. And yet, you claim that mormonism is more or less evil. See the contradiction.

Religion is filled with contradictions however. Lets look at the freud that took place in Northern Ireland where both protestants and catholics forgot their bible at the door. Or with the Hindus, Muslims and christians in India, where all forgot their holy books at the door as they relish in killing each other. Life is full of contradictions.

And yet, god’s love still shines through, and yes, in mormonism too.

 

[mfbukowski]

Again, your God has limits. An all-knowing, omnipotent God would know whether a person, given a chance, would become Christian. No need to give them another chance in the afterlife.

Now there is a contradiction right there. Because God knows what we would become, he makes us that way.

I thought Catholics did not believe in predestination?

Is he incapable of giving us our own opportunity to make choices?

What kind of God is that?

Why should any of us live at all if he knows how it is going to turn out and just puts us where we belong anyway?

My God has no limits, and gives us free will, and has given us the opportunity to exercise it – in this world OR the next.

 

[majick275]

Here is the main contradiction: Mormonism has been a force for good in this world. And yet, you claim more or less that the book of mormon is satanic. See the contradiction? Mormonism stands up for god and for keeping his commandments. It also stands up for family and for making society a healthy organism. And yet, you claim that mormonism is more or less evil. See the contradiction.

Religion is filled with contradictions however. Lets look at the freud that took place in Northern Ireland where both protestants and catholics forgot their bible at the door. Or with the Hindus, Muslims and christians in India, where all forgot their holy books at the door as they relish in killing each other. Life is full of contradictions.

And yet, god’s love still shines through, and yes, in mormonism too.

mormonism has never been a force for good. mormons have been guilty of just the type of thing you mention in your “examples”. At a very basic level mormonism is composed of false prophets teaching false doctrines. that is NOT good. that some of these teachings may appear benign makes it little different than wicca, buddhism or new age philosophy. when you dig a little deeper you quickly find something more akin to islam or scientology. mormonism deceives people into ignoring true christianity and spending their lives in vain practices that will keep them from God.

 

[mfbukowski]

mormonism has never been a force for good. mormons have been guilty of just the type of thing you mention in your “examples”. At a very basic level mormonism is composed of false prophets teaching false doctrines. that is NOT good. that some of these teachings may appear benign makes it little different than wicca, buddhism or new age philosophy. when you dig a little deeper you quickly find something more akin to islam or scientology. mormonism deceives people into ignoring true christianity and spending their lives in vain practices that will keep them from God.

That’s quite a list.

wicca
Buddhism
new age philosophy
islam
scientology

mormonism

Now what are you saying these have in common?

It seems to me all they have in common is that they are NOT Catholicism.

In that case you left out a few other “isms”

So what’s your point?

 

[majick275]

That’s quite a list.

wicca
Buddhism
new age philosophy
islam
scientology

mormonism

Now what are you saying these have in common?

It seems to me all they have in common is that they are NOT Catholicism.

In that case you left out a few other “isms”

So what’s your point?

my primary point is that we shouldn’t start all discussions of mormonism from the standpoint that it’s force for good.

my use of those specific examples was intended to be very focused so as not to paint with the broad brush anything that isn’t catholic. on that line, those are representative of manmade religions that appeal to one’s control of of one’s own destiny. some of those are also intended to point out the control over members and constant pressure to pay.

overall mormonism is a shrinking phenomenon with a very narrow appeal. it is still however, very dangerous to those who are vulnerable to it.

God did not leave the world in darkness. Jesus church did not fail. just as restorationists start from the false premise of the great apostasy so too Man cannot become God and God was never “just man”. (God was man in the incarnation of Jesus but was still wholly God at the same time) thus on two very fundamental pillars of christianity we cannot accept mormonism as anything other than false doctrine spread by false prophets. (there is a big difference between christians disagreeing over doctrie based on their study of scripture and self proclaimed “oracles of the lord” who “pronounce” doctrine…especially such fluid doctrines)

 

[Jerusha]

1. Another one you should check out if you haven’t, if you are interested in this process direction, is Teilhard de Chardin.
2. I think it is becoming clear that we need to make a break with the creedal theology of the past if we are ever to come into our own as an intellectual community. We are a post modern church operating with a 13th century approach, and that is just not going to work.

!

1. AMEN to that!!! Chardin is Good. Radical for his times, but good today.
2. You definitely do have to make a lot of changes. Best of luck.

Part of the Book of Mormon is Satanic. Part is of God. How else could it have suckered in so many?

 

[Jerusha]

Because God knows what we would become, he makes us that way.

No, our life experiences make us what we are, free will, once we choose to plug into God’s power, gives us the ability to overcome. :knight2:

 

[Jerusha]

Why should any of us live at all if he knows how it is going to turn out and just puts us where we belong anyway?

God put us on this earth to know, love, and serve Him. I once heard/read that, somewhere or other.