Controversial saints should they be emulated

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MargaretofCortona

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Saints like St. Rose of Lima. I learned she disfigured her face with lye and blistered it with pepper. Some of her other holy practices are austere and dangerous. Mortification is a turn off. I cannot imagine explaining these stories to non Catholics.
Some people see St. Maria Goretti as a controversial saint. Her story to some sends the wrong message to rape victims. To some it is beautiful story of forgiveness but to others it is a manic pixie dream girl story. A long suffering woman who deals with abuse only to selflessly save him by continuing to love.
 
I think it can be explained that sainthood means overcoming sins, temptations. St. Rose of Lima was under temptation and she couldn’t overcome them so they made her defile her own body. But she did it in the end since she is Heaven.
Early day saints including the Apostles may also be seen as ‘suicidal’ because they would not give up their faith in front of torture and persecution. So St. Rose was persecuted by evil spirits and St. Peter by people possessed by evil spirits. Should we just rebrand Christianity to ‘sell’ it better?
Their struggle can be seen as a struggle they did so that we do not have to do it, they would help us overcome such situations if we asked them. To devoid them of their sufferance is inhumane and untruthful. Within the frame of them intercessing for us how can anyone judge them?
Besides… Jesus Christ said that He will spew from Him all who is lukewarm. These saints were anything but lukewarm.
Children should not learn of these things, I agree with this. And maybe teenagers should not concentrate on these aspects. But a non-Catholic adult is not a child. If they want to understand it they will.
St. Francis also self-punished himself. Do we give him up too?
 
I do not understand nor agree with their extreme practices. If they are the standard, who will enter heaven? I understand entering heaven is the most difficult journey. Do I have to beat myself, destroy my face, etc to attain holiness?
I think some of the saints like Rose of Lima and Catherine of Siena who are referred to as holy anorexics may be mentally ill.

Should I destroy my face with acid to overcome vanity?
 
Maria Goretti’s great virtue was her forgiveness. No easy feat when you are the victim of violent crime.

As for the mortification–funny thing, that.
The concept of physical pain and self-denial as a path to spiritual enlightenment is one that is found in faith traditions all over the world. We somehow instinctively know there is Something More out there and that we need to give up our attachments to attain it.
Some religions go to extremes with fasting to the point of hallucinations. Or ritualistic piercing and cutting and scarring.
Look up the Native American spiritual practices if you want some hair raising stuff.

I’ve known a lot of people (no, I don’t mean you, OP) who speak about painful pagan rituals as cool or macho – but when it’s done by Christians in the name of penance, then all of a sudden the phony outrage comes on board and it all “oppressive!” and “controlling!”

Whatever
 
MargaretofCortona said:
Some people see St. Maria Goretti as a controversial saint.
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How is she controversial?
Maybe she’s controversial to the current generation of liberals who can’t deal with the idea of somebody forgiving their rapist. She’s a fairly straightforward example of holiness though.

Also, she was only 11, and it only emerged that Allessandro had approached her before after he admitted that.

As for Rose of Lima, I think we can take the holiness and leave the self-mutilation. I don’t think the Church holds up all the actions of a person when they make them a saint. There also can be a tnedency to glorify certain actions.

That said, physical mortification has been accepted by the Church as legit. Many saints did it, some just took it to a greater extreme.
 
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One cannot really compare 14th century Siena with 20th century Western Civilization. Catherine of Siena did indeed do krazy hard and terrible penances. We are not called to do the penances she did, we have not been given the graces that she was given to perform them.

Most all Catholics in their right mind that know what Catherine did would be mortified by them, but that does not make Catherine mentally ill.

Trying to understand everything that makes up Divine Providence will make your brain implode.

You seem to be focusing on a lot of difficult things, distressing things!

I like Catherine, but I’m not planning to try and do the same penances she was doing. We can follow the example of saints in another way than just copying their behaviors.
 
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I think it is difficult to understand saints from hundreds of years ago because of what we know now. Why would God want anyone to suffer their body to that extent? To prove what?
 
I’m not sure why self mortification is considered important for spiritual enlightening. Some may see the beauty in this.
 
Saints from recent times do this too. John Paul II wore a hairshirt every day. Some orders of monks engage in penetential rituals such as self-flagellation and wearing of various uncomfortable items.

It’s all as a penance for their sins and the sins of others. It’s only now that we look at this with disgust because we are used to the comfortable life. Suffering can be offered though. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If the faith was easy and painless we’d all get to heaven no problem. We are all required to endure some form of pain or discomfort in order to get to heaven.
 
Siena back then was very hedonistic. Catherine was, in part, doing penance for their hedonism.

If you look at behavior of saints without first understanding some various principles of the spiritual life, there actions will seem absurd, even mentally ill, as you say.
 
JamalChristophr said:
Siena back then was very hedonistic. Catherine was, in part, doing penance for their hedonism.
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Exactly. I’m sure in 100 years, when the lives of 21st century saints are being written, someone will make the same observation about them. But the fact is, there are people alive today, who are engaged in similar mortifications for the sins of this generation.
 
That’s a good question, and I really don’t know.
But I find it fascinating how widespread the practice has been–all over the world and over the centuries, and it crosses cultural and religious boundaries.

If I were to hazard a guess, it’s the idea of giving up things, but taken to an extreme (if giving up chocolate is good, then fasting for days on end must be better!).
Also, some forms of physical pain stimuli release endorphins (the body’s natural pain-killer), and produce a little high–think of the runner’s high.

But who was the first person to figure it out? Who knows?
 
No you must not since it is not official teaching of the Church. But if you might at some point in life feel inclined to hurt yourself, these saints who have conquered the spirits producing such actions can help. They are in Heaven not because they hurt themselves but because eventually they overcame the devils inspiring them to hurt themselves.
If what I said is not according to the Church’s teachings I beg someone correct me.
 
Mary888 said:
but because eventually they overcame the devils inspiring them to hurt themselves.
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No that’s not true. Physical mortification is held up by the Church in some cases as being the result of a profound understanding and relationship with God.
 
But I think it must be done under obedience, if after confession the priest tells you to. Not by our own perception and self-judgement.
 
thistle said:
Mortification is NOT a requirement for our faith or salvation.
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Actually it is. Maybe not the extreme physical mortification of the saints. But mortification in little things is absolutely necessary for anyone to get to heaven. It could be holding back the sarcastic comment from your spouse when they irritate you. Or getting up early on your day off to do a favour for your parent. Mortification doesn’t have to be in the form of pain, it’s just another word for “doing something you don’t want to do and offering it to God.”
 
Mary888 said:
But I think it must be done under obedience, if after confession the priest tells you to. Not by our own perception and self-judgement.
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Yeah. That’s why generally lay people don’t undertake acts of physical mortification. But it’s still common in religious orders and many orders just have it as part of everyday life.

I know members of the Opus Dei prelature undertake to wear the cilice and other things. This is mild discomfort rather than “pain”.

But of you are a married member of Opus Dei there is no way you’d be allowed to do that.
 
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thistle said:
Mortification is NOT a requirement for our faith or salvation
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This is completely incorrect. Everyone must mortify themselves. Most of the time this should be interior, denying ones selfish desires. But this can be helped by exterior mortification.

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AdamPeter said:
Maybe she’s controversial to the current generation of liberals who can’t actually deal with any nuance in the area of rape/consent/sexual abuse.
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What the heck do “consent” and “nuance” have to do with anything? Maria Goretti was an 11-year old child who was the victim of multiple attempted rapes by a psychotic young man - there’s no “nuance” in that situation.

Some secularists might take issue with the idea that she was canonized solely because she died protecting her virginity. I can’t help but agree with them, as I’ve seen an uncomfortable amount of support for that interpretation from many Catholic sources. However, I still consider her a saint, because through all of her suffering, she found the strength to forgive.
 
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