Conversation with a Mormon

[kevangreen]

being that mormons copy alot of catholic morals and such I would guess that there are as against it as we are plus an abortion means one less door knocker roaming the streets and we can’t have that LOL

 

[JohnVIII]

mormonpro;5065396:

Hmmm I was fourth generation, LDS for 40 Years. Went on a 2 year mission, Taught Gospel doctrine for 5 years. Taught Elders Quorum for 7 years. Held many positions was a strong defender until the Lord reached out and showed me how misled Mormonism really is. As for the Abortion discussion above. Please feel free to call the Office of the LDS First Presidency at 18012401000 We have had many discussions with them. Ask them to read their official policy on abortion to you. Then we will see who knows what about Mormonism…

MormonPro,
I am not impressed with your background. You evidently never had the guidance of the Holy Ghost in all of that LDS experience, which means you were on the fringe of understanding what was going on. (That can easily happen to fourth generation LDS–never experience a conversion.)

If you had gone from being less charitable in Mormonism to how you seem to be now, then it would have been a step in the right direction, since evidently Mormonism didn’t guide you toward charity . . .

I too am an ex-Mormon. I served a two-year mission for your church in Idaho. Later, after my mission, I fulfilled a promise (a promise I made to God just before I joined your church) that I would leave the Mormon Church, no matter how deep I got into it, if I ever found it to be false.

At first I did genuinely convert to the Mormon Church. I actually had three of those “burning in the bosoms” that your Doctrine and Covenants speaks of. This “burning” literally occurred three times! And each time it had an accompanying voice. The first one happened right after my Mormon Baptism and the voice said, “your sins are forgive you”. The second one happened right after I was ordained to your “Aaronic Priesthood” and the voice said, “you have received the priesthood”. The third, however, came to me latter the next day and said, “ the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, We are One!” I would not have remained a Mormon as long as I had if it were not for this “testimony”. However, one big problem here, the third one taught the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, not the Mormon doctrine of three gods in the Godhead (one only in purpose). So you cannot try to tell me that I was not genuinely converted to Mormonism! Nevertheless the seemingly endless contradictions in Mormonism revealed the clear fact that the Mormon Church is false! My “burning in the bosoms” were not of God (except for the third one). And it is not “uncharitable” to speak the truth. As it says in the Bible “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” (Ephesians 5:11)

The Mormon Endowment Ceremony (of 1985) has this exchange between an actor representing Satan and an actor representing an “orthodox” preacher: Satan says, “Do you preach the orthodox religion?” The preacher says, “Yes, that is what I preach”. Satan says, “If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people and convert them I will pay you well!” The preacher says, “I will do my best”. This part of the Mormon Endowment Ceremony reveals just how “charitable” the Mormon faith is to “orthodox” faiths! I revealed the Mormon Endowment Ceremony by recording it before I left the Mormon Church in 1985 while my temple recommend was still valid. I had the recording published under the title “The Unfruitful Works of Darkness”; yes, I was the very same Mormon who did this in 1985! Then after leaving Mormonism I joined an “orthodox religion”; Eastern Orthodox to be exact.

I love the Mormon people. I just do not care for the Mormon gods. Mormon gods are G.E.R.M.‘s. Glorified, Exalted, Resurrected, Men. And contending for the truth with regard to Mormonism is G.E.R.M. warfare.

Happy Palm Sunday,

JohnVIII

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I too am an ex-Mormon. I served a two-year mission for your church in Idaho. Later, after my mission, I fulfilled a promise (a promise I made to God just before I joined your church) that I would leave the Mormon Church, no matter how deep I got into it, if I ever found it to be false.

At first I did genuinely convert to the Mormon Church. I actually had three of those “burning in the bosoms” that your Doctrine and Covenants speaks of. This “burning” literally occurred three times! And each time it had an accompanying voice. The first one happened right after my Mormon Baptism and the voice said, “your sins are forgive you”. The second one happened right after I was ordained to your “Aaronic Priesthood” and the voice said, “you have received the priesthood”. The third, however, came to me latter the next day and said, “ the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, We are One!” I would not have remained a Mormon as long as I had if it were not for this “testimony”. However, one big problem here, the third one taught the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, not the Mormon doctrine of three gods in the Godhead (one only in purpose). So you cannot try to tell me that I was not genuinely converted to Mormonism! Nevertheless the seemingly endless contradictions in Mormonism revealed the clear fact that the Mormon Church is false! My “burning in the bosoms” were not of God (except for the third one). And it is not “uncharitable” to speak the truth. As it says in the Bible “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” (Ephesians 5:11)

The Mormon Endowment Ceremony (of 1985) has this exchange between an actor representing Satan and an actor representing an “orthodox” preacher: Satan says, “Do you preach the orthodox religion?” The preacher says, “Yes, that is what I preach”. Satan says, “If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people and convert them I will pay you well!” The preacher says, “I will do my best”. This part of the Mormon Endowment Ceremony reveals just how “charitable” the Mormon faith is to “orthodox” faiths! I revealed the Mormon Endowment Ceremony by recording it before I left the Mormon Church in 1985 while my temple recommend was still valid. I had the recording published under the title “The Unfruitful Works of Darkness”; yes, I was the very same Mormon who did this in 1985! Then after leaving Mormonism I joined an “orthodox religion”; Eastern Orthodox to be exact.

I love the Mormon people. I just do not care for the Mormon gods. Mormon gods are G.E.R.M.‘s. Glorified, Exalted, Resurrected, Men. And contending for the truth with regard to Mormonism is G.E.R.M. warfare.

Happy Palm Sunday,

JohnVIII

Inspiring conversion.

God bless you John!

 

[Religio71]

it seems that much if not many of the issues acknowledged by LDS apologists are explained as “clerical mistakes” of recording. Whether I read Jeff Lindsay or the FAIRMormon wiki, I keep seeing clerical/recording errors as explaining discrepancies.

 

[kevangreen]

i believe that feeling is from the devil cause he is from this world, i had something like that too liking the religion before i even read anything about it, that is from the devil, the bible says not to listen to your heart cause of how deceitful it is
only listen to the bible not the false teachings of a false prophet

 

[ParkerD]

John VIII,
Thanks for responding. I didn’t mean a “burning in your bosom” or a “voice” once or twice or three times in your life. I meant a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost that confirms truths often–daily or weekly or monthly, often. For me, lately it is daily.

You should have left the LDS church much sooner than you did. You never felt the witness of the Holy Ghost–never have, never will. It only comes to the honest in heart, with sincere intent to act purely. The Holy Ghost knows what is going on in the heart of each person, of course. No lip service will fool the Holy Ghost. Your actions were contradictory.

You think you follow Ephesians 5:11, yet ignore verse 12 (and ignore the vast majority of New Testament verses about love, light, the fruits of the Spirit, being kind to one another, etc.) I have no stomach for thinking of how the next world will be for you. What a sad story here and there! May you use the Bible the way it was intended. Bye.

 

[mormonpro]

John VIII,
Thanks for responding. I didn’t mean a “burning in your bosom” or a “voice” once or twice or three times in your life. I meant a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost that confirms truths often–daily or weekly or monthly, often. For me, lately it is daily.

You should have left the LDS church much sooner than you did. You never felt the witness of the Holy Ghost–never have, never will. It only comes to the honest in heart, with sincere intent to act purely. The Holy Ghost knows what is going on in the heart of each person, of course. No lip service will fool the Holy Ghost. Your actions were contradictory.

You think you follow Ephesians 5:11, yet ignore verse 12 (and ignore the vast majority of New Testament verses about love, light, the fruits of the Spirit, being kind to one another, etc.) I have no stomach for thinking of how the next world will be for you. What a sad story here and there! May you use the Bible the way it was intended. Bye.

Ah yes the Spielberg effect, you know the feeling you get at a Spielberg movie (warm fuzzy emotion) The usher at the movie tells you at one point in the movie you will get a warm feeling then you will know the movie is true and Spielberg is gods prophet. No matter how much evidence proves it is all just make believe you still believe because you had the feeling you were promised. However it doesn’t prove anything except you have normal human emotions. Mormons are poor con artists using con artists oldest tricks. If it makes you feel good it must be right… That is precisely why Utah leads the nation in frauds committed against it’s citizens. Well con artists long ago proved Joseph Smith was nothing but a poor con artist and the LDS church inadvertently admitted it.

In their own history they admit the fraud perpetrated against the First President of the Mormon church (Joseph Smith). The account of the Kinderhook plates which is printed in the official ‘History of the Church’, (the Mormon church’s officially accepted history). vol. 5, p. 372. The following is attributed to Joseph Smith:
“I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook,… I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.”
After the plates were found, nine “citizens of Kinderhook” certified that R. Wiley took the “six brass plates” from “a large mound, in this vicinity.” Unfortunately for the Mormon position, it was later revealed that the plates were forgeries. On April 25, 1855, W. P. Harris, who was one of the nine witnesses to the discovery of the plates, wrote a letter in which he stated that the plates were not genuine: “…I was present with a number at or near Kinderhook, and helped to dig at the time the plates were found… I… made an honest affidavit to the same…since that time, Bridge Whitten said to me that he cut and prepared the plates and he… and R. Wiley engraved them themselves… Wilbourn Fugit appeared to be the chief, with R. Wiley and B. Whitten.” (The Book of Mormon?, by James D. Bales, p. 95-96)
As proof these plates were a fraud, later close examinations were done as the story resurfaced. George M. Lawrence, a Mormon physicist, was given permission to examine and make “some non-destructive physical studies of the surviving plate.” In his “Report of a Physical Study of the Kinderhook Plate Number 5,” George Lawrence wrote: “The dimensions, tolerances, composition and workmanship are consistent with the facilities of an 1843 blacksmith shop and with the fraud stories of the original participants.” Since Mr. Lawrence was allowed to make non-destructive tests, some Mormon scholars would not accept his work as conclusive. In 1980, however, the Mormon scholar Stanley P. Kimball was able “to secure permission from the Chicago Historical Society for the recommended destructive tests.” Professor Kimball described the results of the tests in the official Mormon Church publication, The Ensign, August 1981, p. 66-70: “A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate… brought in 1843 to the Prophet Joseph Smith… appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church history, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was - a nineteenth-century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient-looking characters that had been etched into the plates… As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate… is not of ancient origin… we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy (copper and zinc) typical of the mid-nineteenth century; whereas the ‘brass’ of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin.”
If Joseph Smith had not been murdered in June 1844, it is very possible he might have published a complete “translation” of these bogus plates. Just a month before his death, it was reported that he was “busy in translating them. The new work… will be nothing more nor less than a sequel to the Book of Mormon,…” (Warsaw Signal, May 22, 1844) The fact that Joseph Smith was actually preparing to print a translation of the plates is verified by a broadside published by the Mormon newspaper, The Nauvoo Neighbor, in June 1843. On this broadside, containing facsimiles of the plates, we find the following: “The contents of the Plates, together with a Fac-Simile of the same, will be published in the 'Times and Seasons, ’ as soon as the translation is completed.”
The fact that Joseph Smith’s partial translation shown in the History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 372. : "I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook,… “I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.” was later proven beyond a shadow of doubt by Mormon scholars to be a translation of a fraud, designed to catch Joseph in a trap (which it did), had little if any effect on most Mormons of the day, they went on with life as usual. They did not dare question their faith…

 

[NewSeeker]

You never felt the witness of the Holy Ghost–never have, never will. It only comes to the honest in heart, with sincere intent to act purely.

This is the Mormon mantra regarding those who seek but do not find. I too never felt the witness of the Holy Ghost. When I shared that fact, and the pain it caused me, with my LDS parents, friends, church leaders, etc., they would all repeat the mantra. Well, I was sincere. I began to seriously ask God for a witness while in seminary, after my seminary graduation, before, during, and after my two-year mission, before and after my temple marriage, and for the next several years of faithful church attendance, callings, tithing, etc etc. A witness never came. Without exception, I was told I must not have been sincere. Or lacked faith; or didn’t really want to live up to the standards of the church, or wasn’t listening when the Spirit was whispering. But you have a major flaw in your theory. Some of us ARE honest and sincere in our searching. I was honest in heart, with a sincere intent to act purely, exactly as you say I must be to receive a witness. And a spiritual witness never came. Imagine my growing frustration, despair, and confusion as time passed. Nothing but complete silence from God despite my prayers and faithful service. No feelings, no sudden ideas planted in my mind, no “sense of rightness”, nothing at all whatsoever. And over time, the despair and confusion were supplemented by a growing Mormon chorus of “you must not be sincere”, “you must not be worthy”, “you must not be honest in heart”, you weren’t listening. As a fifth generation Mormon surrounded by Mormons who all had supposedly received their witnesses (unlike me) and who were now united using the mantra on me, the despair gradually turned into depression and extreme anger that was slowly, inexorably killing me. That is the dark side of the Mormon approach to spirituality. Those who truly are sincere when they seek, and do not get the expected answer, are blamed for it by Mormons who refuse to believe that such a thing could happen. And for someone like me, who loved the Church and was proud of my heritage, the twin effects of failure to obtain a testimony along with all of the finger pointing from my fellow Mormons (which is spiritual abuse) was emotionally devastating. I lived in spiritual hell for many years until I finally found the peace of Christ by coming home to Him in the Catholic Church. Thanks be to God!

NS

 

[kevangreen]

we all go home in the end, unless we are already there lol

 

[JohnVIII]

John VIII,
… You never felt the witness of the Holy Ghost–never have, never will. It only comes to the honest in heart, with sincere intent to act purely. The Holy Ghost knows what is going on in the heart of each person, of course. No lip service will fool the Holy Ghost. Your actions were contradictory.

You still wish to assume that the person who was truly converted to Mormonism never would have left. This simply is not true. I told you that I served a two-year mission for the Mormon Church in Idaho. Before a left on my mission I converted my mother to the Mormon Church and she was baptized. Right in the middle of my mission my mother died of cancer. I could’ve gone home and not completed my mission. I chose to stay and finish my two-year mission for the Mormon Church before I returned home. What more do you think I can say to you to prove to you that I was genuinely converted to the Mormon Church! I went to the Mormon Temple with a woman friend of mine who served vicariously to do the endowment ceremony for my mother who had passed away. On that occasion her and I served as the witness couple! It was a very emotional occasion. I loved Mormonism, and I believed in Mormonism. But I loved the truth more than I loved Mormonism; so when God showed me by unrefutable proves that Mormonism was not true, I had to decided what I loved most, Mormonism or the truth. After converting away from Mormonism to the truth I took a vacation to Idaho and sought out as many people as I could who I converted to Mormonism as a Mormon missionary and tried to communicate to them the truth about Mormonism and the truth about Orthodox Christianity. My motivation for doing this was love - love for the truth, and love for the people who seek the truth. I pray that someday, by God’s grace, I will see the day that there are crosses on top of Mormon chapels! I would like to see the day that the grace of God is taught inside of Mormon chapels, and that any sinner no matter how bad his sin was can learn inside a Mormon chapel that he can come to Christ and be totally forgiven by the blood of Christ (without the need of that person’s own blood being shed for his sins). I would love to see the day that Mormons return to using bread and wine when you celebrate the Lord’s supper instead of using bread and water; as if to say that you do not wish to be a partaker of the blood of Christ. Do you “feel” that you are drinking the blood of Christ when you drink water? What you do in your churches and in your temples expresses what your beliefs are. I would also love to see the day that the Masonic symbols on your temples be taken down and replaced by a life creating-cross of our Lord Jesus Christ!

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!

JohnVIII

 

[kevangreen]

that is a sad story,
i lost my mother 2, i think it sucks that you chose to stay on a mission that really messed up some peoples life instead of going to your ma’s funeral
i lost my ma to cancer too
sad stories all round i guess

 

[ParkerD]

Kevan,
It was a sad story that John VIII related. But your assumption that he didn’t attend his mom’s funeral may or may not be true. Missionaries whose parents (or even grandparents) die while on their mission, who want to attend the funeral, can do so and then return to their mission.

My mom also died of cancer, pancreatic. My heart goes out to anyone whose family has had that kind of tragedy in their life.

 

[ParkerD]

John VIII,
Sorry to hear about your mom’s death. I hope you feel happy in your life. I’m fine with your decision.

The following aspects of conversion must be in place in order for there to be a real “conversion” to the LDS church by the “baptism of fire” or the Holy Ghost:

1. the person must be obeying all of the commandments as best they can, including having repented of prior sins and ongoing repentance for mistakes.
2. the person must “search the scriptures” sincerely, including the Bible and the Book of Mormon. This needs to be done on an ongoing basis or that person will lose their conversion. The “living water” of Christ’s gospel has to be nurtured by reading and pondering on an ongoing basis.
3. the person must be sincerely following the living prophet (not harboring resentment over the imperfections of dead leaders) not blindly but because they feel the truth of the teachings in their own heart. They also must not be aspiring to leadership on their own.
4. the person must be acting with love for others demonstrated by helping the poor and needy.
5. the person must be serving others with acts of service and with kindness in how they treat them, not seeking personal glory in the process.
6. the person must be sincere in their personal prayers, not seeking to “counsel the Lord” but to “take counsel from His hand.” Christ knows what is best for each of us in our progress in this life. Knowing that, each person so inclined needs to accept that “Thy will, not mine be done.” A willingness to fast, and sincere fasting often, helps in having the humility necessary for prayers to be sincere. The person needs patience in allowing for prayers to be answered differently, perhaps not for a long time, than was expected.
7. the person must have sincerely made and be keeping covenants with Jesus Christ, including the baptismal covenant, priesthood covenants for the men, temple covenants for those who have gone to the temple.
8. the person needs to recognize that the free agency which was such an important gift to humankind in the Beginning, should not be disrupted by any act of ours towards how any other person makes decisions in their own life. No cooercion, no unrighteous dominion, no blaming.

It sounds like you struggled with item 3. (They aren’t in order of importance, by the way.) I’m not surprised at all that you would have lost your “conversion”, but I still doubt that you had had a real “baptism of fire”. It’s not about “hearing a voice.” (Your earlier description showed me your “conversion” was a shallow understanding. Sorry.) That would only happen very occasionally. It’s about having a change of heart that broadens our vision, expands the love we feel toward everyone around us, makes all of the scriptures come alive for us, and lets us feel that Jesus Christ truly is our personal Savior because we feel Him changing our lives on an ongoing basis through personal revelation and through repentance. It is feeling that change of heart and the joy of our redemption with every fiber of our being.

Peace to you in your decision. Mormonism is a sifter of hearts.The purposes of the gospel never change, but as some climb an intellectual ladder and don’t keep climbing a spiritual ladder, they find that that intellectual ladder was leaning against the wrong wall.
Have a good day.

 

[ParkerD]

New Seeker,
I struggled in my own life until college to understand the witness of the Holy Ghost, so I understand somewhat how you felt, though I didn’t talk about it much and didn’t feel anyone was pointing fingers at me. You may have had a witness from the Holy Ghost all along, and not recognized it. I understood that for myself in college, when I was reading the Book of Mormon and the Bible together. If you ever felt deep inner peace about living the gospel and how Christ was involved in your life, then that was a witness of the Holy Ghost.

But the Bible gives a person as much doctrine as they need to progress through an ongoing personal relationship with Jesus Christ, so if you have that, you will keep progressing and growing and Christ will lead you along. He loves you whether you’re in the LDS church or in the Catholic church. (You would know that, of course.)

Sorry you felt abandoned and abused. Those must have been traumatic feelings. Peace and joy to you now.

 

[ParkerD]

MormonPro,
If you left the LDS church over the Kinderhook plates issue, then you had a shallow understanding indeed. You’re welcome to read what I responded with to John VIII, about conversion. I suppose you think Elijah and Samuel had those same “Stephen Spielberg” effects in their lives. Your knowledge of the Bible doesn’t impress me either.

But everyone who pushes against the LDS church pushes it up. It is fulfilling the prophecies of Isaiah and of Hosea, right before your eyes. But that process will be an ongoing mystery to you. It’s your loss, not mine. I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes at judgment day with how you have broken covenants so foolishly, sir. Bye.

 

[Jerusha]

From what I have seen, leaving mormonism is a process, like the old falling dominos game. Once one falls, the mind is opened, and the others fall. I am sure you have a doubt somewhere. Examine it.

 

[NewSeeker]

You may have had a witness from the Holy Ghost all along, and not recognized it… If you ever felt deep inner peace about living the gospel and how Christ was involved in your life, then that was a witness of the Holy Ghost.

That’s my mom’s favorite explanation for my lack of a testimony. God sent that witness, but I didn’t recognize it when it came. But that’s how I feel now as a Catholic - a deep sense of inner peace. If the Spirit sent that feeling while I was a Mormon, I didn’t recognize it. But how can you not feel a feeling when it is sent to you? Maybe it was sent while I was asleep. But that’s not very helpful, is it?

Sorry you felt abandoned and abused. Those must have been traumatic feelings. Peace and joy to you now.

Thank you. I truly appreciate it.

 

[dianaiad]

i believe that feeling is from the devil cause he is from this world, i had something like that too liking the religion before i even read anything about it, that is from the devil, the bible says not to listen to your heart cause of how deceitful it is
only listen to the bible not the false teachings of a false prophet

And exactly WHERE does the bible say not to 'listen to your heart?"
Perhaps in Luke 24: 32, where it was the hearts of the apostles that confirmed to them the identity of Christ?

If it is not to your heart that you listen, that place where the spirit confirms truth to you, then how DO you know that the bible is more than a collection of myth? What is it that confirms to you that God Is, and Christ Is?

I’m sorry, but the witness of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit, speaks to the heart; it is THAT which is the true confirmation of religious truth. You can’t find it through logic, or ‘reason,’ or scientific evidence.

In fact, to deny that it is that witness to your ‘heart’ that confirms religious truth is to engage in very circular reasoning indeed; you believe the bible is true because why…the bible claims it is?

 

[NewSeeker]

I’m sorry, but the witness of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit, speaks to the heart; it is THAT which is the true confirmation of religious truth. You can’t find it through logic, or ‘reason,’ or scientific evidence.

True, but the heart must be balanced by the brain. Both must be relied upon to find truth. Anything you ‘feel’ might have been spoken to your heart by the Spirit must be tested against logic, reason, and the evidence. The heart is not enough. Lots of people hold contradictory views, all of whom believe the Spirit told them their view is correct. Only by consulting logic, reason, and the evidence can a seeker sort through the contradicting heart-based claims. Reliance on the heart is not enough.

NS

 

[ParkerD]

From what I have seen, leaving mormonism is a process, like the old falling dominos game. Once one falls, the mind is opened, and the others fall. I am sure you have a doubt somewhere. Examine it.

Jerusha,
I assume your comment was directed to me, though we “broke off” conversation. The thing I struggle with most is understanding why people don’t read the Bible and figure out that the “living water”, the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, leads to such peace, joy, and love, and the fruits of the Spirit, that it not only cannot be denied but that to follow any other path in life would be to say, “I don’t want to be happy, after all.”

I suppose that some or most Catholics are happy in their hearts and have the fruits of the Spirit in their lives, but it surely does not come across in how they write, here on these threads, anyway. What baffles me is, “are these people really reading the Bible, and thinking about the meaning, and what an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ means in their lives?” All I hear is intellectual mumbo-jumbo.

Have a nice day, and good luck in your reading and writing.