Conversations with a Lutheran

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Lutherans are like the Orthodox, in that they both deny that there is a basis in scriptures for believing in the distinction between mortal and venial sin. But it is easy to show that this is a wholly irrational thing for them to believe because it contradicts other beliefs that they confess.

For example, the Orthodox believe that a that some sins can be forgiven after death, and their prayers for the dead are supplications to God for mercy on the sinner. Therefore, they believe that some sins are not mortal (i.e. they believe that some sins are venial). On the other hand, the Orthodox and Lutherans do not think that just because a man received the Sacrament of Baptism as an infant, that he is guaranteed a place in Heaven. Since Orthodox theology, like Lutheran theology, does not support OSAS, both the Orthodox and the Lutherans confess that it is possible for a Christian to suffer the second death (eternal damnation). Therefore, it cannot be denied that both Lutherans and Orthodox believe that there must be some sin that a Christian could commit that would be mortal. The Orthodox and the Lutherans can’t have it both ways, they can’t believe that there is no distinction between mortal and venial sin without also having to embrace a form of OSAS.

Once you establish that the Lutheran actually does believe in the distinction between mortal and venial sin, ask the Lutheran to be specific as to how a Christian can commit mortal sin. Then show that the Lutheran contradicts what is written in scriptures. In principle this is easy, but in practice, the Lutheran, like the Orthodox, will constantly try to change the discussion to something other than what is being asked. That is where you have to be persistent in bringing the discussion back to your point. It is far easier to do this on the internet than it is in a face to face discussion.
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

The ad honium attacks on this board have been steadily increasing. If someone came on here and started posting about how “dumb” a Roman Catholic they worked with was, and how they OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about Christianity or they wouldn’t be RC, there would some (justified) howling and many would be calling for the poster to be banned. Why is it acceptable to treat your guest this way here? If I wanted to see blind personal attacks, there are plenty of sites out there where they fly fast and furious. I came to this site because of a Roman Catholic doctor whom I have corresponded with on free republic (Polycarp IV), who actually has helped me in many ways both spiritually and personally. While we do not agree with all of each others theology, we always treated each other with respect.

I came to this board hoping for some more reasoned religious discussion than in other places, and have been disappointed by both Roman Catholic posters and non RC posters. 😦

Any, time to get off the soap box and down to the brass tacks.

Confessional Lutheran (orthodox or catholic depending on who is talking) do not hold to a OSAS theology. You can lose the gift a salvation by either rejecting God (apostatizing), or by committing mortal sins (yes, we have those too). Sins such willful murder, adultery, worship of false gods, etc are generally classified as mortal sins. There is typically not a fully developed hierarchy of mortal sins, but it basically comes down to anything that removes God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from your life and heart.

As for cosubstitution , this is NOT a Lutheran doctrine, but a middle to high Anglican one. Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’s Body and Blood in the Sacrament of the Alter. How this happens is typically not very well defined, and depends on synod. Some us more Roman Catholic language, some more Eastern Orthodox.
 
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RedGolum:
…I came to this board hoping for some more reasoned religious discussion than in other places, and have been disappointed by both Roman Catholic posters and non RC posters. 😦
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Thanks for saying this. 👍

I think both sides get aggrivated by the attacks of the other. Maybe the tone of this thread will get better from this point forward. 🙂
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RedGolum:
As for cosubstitution , this is NOT a Lutheran doctrine, but a middle to high Anglican one. Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’s Body and Blood in the Sacrament of the Alter. How this happens is typically not very well defined, and depends on synod. Some us more Roman Catholic language, some more Eastern Orthodox.Thanks for the info. Did you mean consubstantiation instead of cosubstitution or are these different terms?
 
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RedGolum:
Sins such willful murder, adultery, worship of false gods, etc are generally classified as mortal sins.
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Many of the Lutherans and Orthodox that I have debated deny that this is true. When pressed, the only mortal sin that they will admit is apostasy - the complete denial of the faith. They would never concede that a Christian that dies unrepentant for the sin adultery, or unrepentant for the sin of abortion could be in danger of eternal damnation. Sure, apostasy is a mortal sin, but it is not the ONLY mortal sin that a Christian can commit.

Fear of the Lord is virtually meaningless to many Lutherans and Orthodox, as it is for many Catholics. For many, Christianity is now all about feeling good about oneself - a cross free form of “Christianity” is what is embraced. Moral relativism is a plague infecting Christians, and this plague can be found among Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. But the Catholic Church alone is refusing to corrupt her infallible moral teachings to conform to world’s embrace of moral relativism. Do either the Protestants or the Orthodox still teach that practicing artificial contraception can be mortally sinful? The fact that the Catholic Church will not sell out on artificial contraception is proof that she is the Church that Jesus founded, and that all other Christians are in schism with the true Church.
 
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Matt16_18:
Many of the Lutherans and Orthodox that I have debated deny that this is true.
Fear of the Lord is virtually meaningless to many Lutherans and Orthodox, as it is for many Catholics.
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Maybe in the mortal sin issue, as in so many, we are talking past each other?

A mortal sin (in Lutheran theology, not sure about EO) is one that shows that the sinner has replaced God in his heart with something else. So when I say that there are sins that are mortal in Lutheran theology, and you say that most Lutherans you have talked to say that the only mortal sin is to reject God, we are really talking about the same thing.

I mentioned willful murder and adultery. In willful murder (abortion, premeditated murder, etc) the person is placing themselves in the place of God, and judging that they have the power to kill to meet their own needs. In adultry, one spouse likewise breaks a convenant with God to fullfill their lusts, and puts their lusts in place of God.

In other words, the mortal sin was rejecting God. Or as a pastor I know once put it “The god people most often worship is the one they see in the mirror every day”.

Does this mean that the sinner can’t repent? No. We can repent. What about someone who dies committing murder or adultry? While we on earth can not know God’s judgement, I would be fearful of that person’s final judgement.

As to fear of the Lord, what exactly do you mean? I was raised to fear and love God. Fear because He is rightous, all powerful and all knowing. Face it there are blots and stains on our sinful selves that we should be ashamed of before God. One big one for me is that I tend to come across very harsh, and have hurt people when it was not called for.
I also Love God. The fact that he loved us so much that he sent His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross for our (and mine) sins still fills me with joy and sorrow. Joy because the price has been paid to ransom me, sorrow because of the terrible price and suffering my Lord had to go through because of my sin.

Besides that, I can not look at the stars in the sky or a microbe on a petri dish with out wondering at the majesty and wisdom of God. To design something like the universe, and let us enjoy his design, fills my heart with wonder and thanks giving.

Contaception is a difference between the RCC and orthodox Lutherans. While some synods refuse to take a stand, there is a growing shift. The pill is being condemend rather forcefully by some (it is an abortionifact) and in marriage prep classes there is an increased focus on the procreative side of marriage.

Besides, the RCC endorses NFP. On paper it is only supposed to be used in “grave circumstances” but it is often presented as Catholic birth control.
 
FWIW, my son went to a Lutheran (LCMS) kindergarten, as our local Catholic school does not have a kindergarten.

Even then doctrinal differences were showing.

The teacher read a poem that had a line along the lines of the saints and angels can’t hear your prayers.

My son stood up and told the teacher she was a liar and she was “just telling lies.”

I had a big discussion w\my son on respect for teachers and the difference between deliberate lying and being mistaken. I’ll work on his aplogetics techniques later. 😉
 
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RedGolum:
A mortal sin (in Lutheran theology, not sure about EO) is one that shows that the sinner has replaced God in his heart with something else. So when I say that there are sins that are mortal in Lutheran theology, and you say that most Lutherans you have talked to say that the only mortal sin is to reject God, we are really talking about the same thing.
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That sounds good, and God knows what is really in the heart. But most people that commit mortal sin are not consciously saying to themselves, “I reject God, and am going to commit adultery.” Much more likely, the interior conversation is this, “I know it is wrong to commit adultery, but I am going to do it anyway. Jesus will forgive me because I am in love, and I am too weak to resist this passion”. In other words, the person is unrepentant for their sin, and he or she is presuming on the mercy of God (not rejecting God!). But the presumption of God’s mercy for unrepentant sin is just another name for the unforgivable sin.

I find it interesting that you say that there are still Lutherans that believe in the distinction between mortal sin and venial sin. (Personally, I have never dialoged with a Lutheran that would concede that point). Lutherans are typically wont to deny that “works” are necessary for salvation, and they will define works so broadly that works include the Christian’s exercise of his freewill to avoid committing mortal sin. Avoiding mortal sin is a work for most Lutherans, and they argue that men are saved by faith alone. This is an irrational argument, because no matter how they try to avoid it, the Lutherans have reduced saving faith to mere intellectual assent to theological propositions about the Jesus and His death as the expiation for sin. Lutherans will, of course, deny that they have done this, but that is just another example of the contradicitions inherent in Lutheranism.

If a Lutheran ever did admit that he believed in the distinction between mortal and venial sin, a Catholic apologist should be able to leverage point that to force an admission from the Lutheran that scriptures show that salvation is dependent upon living a moral life. IOW, a Lutheran would have to admit that sanctification and justification cannot be separated.
 
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RedGolum:
Contaception is a difference between the RCC and orthodox Lutherans.
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What the heck is an orthodox Lutheran? 😛

“Orthodox Lutheran” is an oxymoron, even by Lutheran standards! How can one possibly know what a Lutheran has to believe to be orthodox? Luther’s sola scriptura theology has destroyed all possibility of there ever being such a thing as an orthodox Lutheran. Luther’s priesthood of all believers theology is better termed the papacy of all believers. Lutheran belief in the autonomy of conscience and the private interpretation of scriptures makes each Lutheran his or her own little pope.

All Lutherans believe that they are orthodox, and no Lutheran can prove otherwise, since all Lutherans have discarded the belief in a temporal authority with the power to infallibly define Christian doctrine.
 
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Matt16_18:
What the heck is an orthodox Lutheran? 😛

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An orthodox Lutheran is one who holds to the teachings of the Bible and the confessions. If I was talking with a Lutheran group, I would use the term “catholic” (little c) denoting one that holds Biblical teachings as expressed in the Apostles and Nicene creeds. Using that term in non Lutheran discussions tends to invite confusion.

As an example of a non orthodox Lutheran group, the ELCA has abortion on their health insurance plan. :mad:
 
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RedGolum:
An orthodox Lutheran is one who holds to the teachings of the Bible and the confessions.
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Which Lutheran has the ultimate temporal authority to settle what constitutes authentic bible teaching, and which Lutheran has the ultimate temporal authority to approve what belongs in the Lutheran confessions? Luther’s false theology of sola scriptura, and his faulty theology of the priesthood of all believers has made this question unanswerable, since Lutheran theology is all about the rejection of divinely instituted temporal authority. As a result, Lutheranism was doomed from the start to the divisions it suffers in its body today, and it was inevitable that Lutheranism would become the father of thousands of divided, bickering and contentious Protestant sects.
 
If any Catholics would take time to read The “Augsburg Confession”, you would understand what Luther really wanted: Reform not Division. He loved the Church and it’s historic traditions, but was not to fond of the sale of indulgences or the fact the two popes were claiming the papacy.

Read the Confessions and the Confutations from Catholic Church. You can plainly see that other than a few reforms, he did not want to change much of anything. I think this is a much better resource to learn of the similarities between Lutherans and Catholics, because they stem from the same vine.
 
Eric Goodrich:
If any Catholics would take time to read The “Augsburg Confession”, you would understand what Luther really wanted: Reform not Division. He loved the Church and it’s historic traditions …
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So why aren’t Lutherans clamoring to be reunited with Mother Church? Which of the reforms that Luther desired to see still need implementing?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was struggling with this issue towards the end of his life. He clearly understood that the best part of Lutheranism was its desire for reform, and that Luther never did want to divide the church into thousands of bickering denominations. Bonhoeffer knew that Lutherans needed to reunite with the Catholic Church.

What would Luther or Bonhoeffer make of this story?
Norway’s Parliament Defends Lesbian Priest

OSLO, Norway – Reuters reports a lesbian priest’s marriage to her female partner in defiance of Lutheran church law triggered a storm of controversy in the Norwegian Parliament on Wednesday. …
 
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