Conversion is not needed for salvation-- JPII?

[Vonier]

John 16:13

 

[MariaG]

Thanks Vonier!

posted by Steve Merten

Could you quote scriptures you are reffering to, “promises of the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth”.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;…

Even look at the Scripture you quoted. It says do everything they tell you. What they preached was correct. What they did was not. So no, the Holy Spirit will not prevent someone from doing the wrong thing. But when it comes to teaching the moral truth, the Holy Spirit will prevent falsehood from being taught.

This does not mean that the Pope will be a great spiritual director. It does not even mean he knows what the truth is. It means he will be prevented from officially teaching as true, something that isn’t. It is a negative protection. A pope may not know the right answer, but they will never give a wrong one when it comes to officially **teaching **moral truth.

Whether or not the people** do** evil it not the point. The point is they will not **teach evil **and present it as official teachings in the Catholic Church.

**NIV MAT 23:2 **“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” Pope JPII could have been a horrible person like the Pharisees. But the Holy Spirit would have protected the Church from teaching falsehood.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

There is an article here catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp

talking more about this issue. Here is a sample.

In heaven there is sufficient light to see who’s there. But at the mysterious periphery of the communion of saints, it’s difficult to see what God is up to, so the Church doesn’t presume to judge. It simply bears in mind the tradition summed up in the Catechism’s paragraph 1257: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello MariaG,

I hear where you are coming from in your posts.

How do you see the different languages used by Pope John Paul II Vatican II teaching which, certianly appear to me, to directly oppose Pope Eugenes excathadra teaching on salvation? One or the other seems to be not speaking the truth or the truth has somehow changed or is severely biased by human nature.

Is the Holy Spirit through Pope John Paul II changing It’s opinion on salvation for ecumenical purposes? Was Pope Eugene bending or biasing the truth of the Holy Spirit on salvation to tell his advosaries to go to hell?

Pope Eugene definitly tells us that conversion to Catholocism is a must for salvation. Pope John Paul II tells us that Conversion from your present pagan religion to Catholocism, or even Christianity, is not a must for salvation.

Many missionaries died bringing the words of Jesus to the pagans because they believed in no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Pope John Paul II seems to be telling us that they died in vain because the pagans, if they are faithful to their pagan religion, go to heaven through Jesus also.

Pope Eugene: The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

Pope John Paul II.We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[MariaG]

The words “None existing outside of the Catholic church …will be partakers of the faith” are 100% true. No one outside of the church will be saved.

While this truth is unchangeable, there can be further understanding of this truth. That is, that Jews may be part of the Catholic Church if they are truly seeking God. Therefore Jews (or pagans or…) can be inside, and no longer outside of the Catholic Church because God is not bound by His sacraments.

We do not know if they will go to heaven, but we do not place limitations on God.

So I do not see any contradiction at all. Just a further understanding of who **may ** be “inside” the Church.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[gelsbern]

Is it possible that the universal church (remember catholic means universal) is bigger than Rome?

 

[Nate]

Steven Merten:

Jewish leaders had the same authority from God as the Pope does.

HI Steven. Why do you think the above? Neither Moses or the prophets or the sanhedren ever pronounced the high priest to be infallible under any conditions. They just said he should be obeyed. No Old Israel leader was given the power to forgive or retain sins. There was no promise of the Holy Spirit to teach them “all things.” There was not as clear a statement of “he who hears you hears Me,” and “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” Or a guarantee that the gates of hell would not prevail against Israel. On the contrary, there was a promise that if they violated the covenant, Israel would be punished and led away in bondage. But Jesus said He would be with the Church for all times…

 

[bones_IV]

A&O:

Fox news kept saying one of the radical teachings of our Holy Father, God rest his soul, was that conversion was not necessary for salvation. Is this true???

No. These people who said that about our beloved Pope are sophists. They follow the truth the way they want to.

 

[TNT]

Normally, (meaning the rule)“it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions (which means FALSE relirions) respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples

From what I can tell, there is no qualification that one even have a properly formed conscience.

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we all die and are saved in our conscientious beliefs faithfully practiced. Where is that in the Scriptures? The Scriptures teach just the opposite! They give NO reference to Holy Writ or Sacred Tradition. Why? Because it isn’t there.
This is simply another Preamble to Universal Salvation, which is the ultimate goal of the New Theology. If you swallow this pinch of poison, then you are being prepared for the next stronger dose. Why? Because the new Theologists know you’ll believe anthing thay say.
Why do you think they let the practicing homosexual culture remain and grow in the very bosom of the Church? Because all can be saved by their conscience. If your perverted conscience accepts this practice, then you can be saved in it.

“because God is not bound by His sacraments…”

He is not bound to ANYTHING but the TRUTH. Which He has given His Church. But even Churchmen can get “itching ears”.

It is WE humans that are bound, objectively. That is the whole point of the Gospels wherein He gave us all the Truth through His Church.

To make a subjective statement about a particular person, the RULE of Faith is to me, a sin against the perennial Gospel.

This statement is NOT a “greater understanding” of EENS, it is a blatant dilution. Either the N. American missionaries were out of control zealots in theological error, or we are being taught protestant theology.

I expect no liberal to believe one word I say here because, as the sig says:
Liberalism :A mental disorder wherein the Illogical becomes completely logical with no lasting effect on the conscience.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Nate:

HI Steven. Why do you think the above? Neither Moses or the prophets or the sanhedren ever pronounced the high priest to be infallible under any conditions. They just said he should be obeyed. No Old Israel leader was given the power to forgive or retain sins. There was no promise of the Holy Spirit to teach them “all things.” There was not as clear a statement of “he who hears you hears Me,” and “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” Or a guarantee that the gates of hell would not prevail against Israel. On the contrary, there was a promise that if they violated the covenant, Israel would be punished and led away in bondage. But Jesus said He would be with the Church for all times…

Hello Nate,

Actually Jesus indicates that if the Sanhedrin “hold sins bound” as like St. Peter’s successors, it will effect a man’s damnation.

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna.

When did the Pope finally proclaim himself infallible? I think it was the 17th century or so. Because pre 17th century Popes and Israelite Church leadership did not see to it that they proclaimed themselves infallible, would this effect whether or not they are infallible?

Are you claiming that Old Testament prophets and scriptures did not have the Holy Spirit with them to guide the Israelite Church as to the will of God?

Do the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, somehow love the Catholic Church far more than They love the Old Testament Israelite Church?

Does Jesus force a Pope to obey Him in any situation that He would not force an Israelite successor of Moses to not disobey God?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Fox news kept saying one of the radical teachings of our Holy Father, God rest his soul, was that conversion was not necessary for salvation. Is this true???

Well he made Hans Urs von Balthasar a Cardinal. Conversion is not neccessary if Hell is empty.

Even if it is empty, we still sin - so we need to be converted. Even if there were no possibility of Hell, we would still need to be converted; for it is not Hell, but our tendencies to go wrong and to go astray from God, that are the problem. Sin is the worst of evils, whether Hell is empty or not.​

Islam is such a good religion that St John the Baptist has been invoked to protect it. So I don’t think we need worry about the Muslims as we already know they worship the same God as us.

In some sense - it would helped if V2 had explained what it meant by its statement in Nostra Aetate, admittedly - they do. Unless there is a Catholic God for Catholics, and God-as-worshipped-by-Muslims, for Muslims. The Being Who Is worshipped as God, is (as such, regardless of ideas about God) the same Being - some of the ideas about God differ according to the religion of the worshipper.​

The description of God does not need to be identical in both religions, for the God Who is worshipped to be identical. ##

Protestants are our brothers and sisters
as are the Orthodox Churchs and we have agreed not to convert these sects, so no worries there.

They do very often have baptism in common with us. If they are baptised, then they are members of Christ as truly as we are. Material identification as Catholic is worthless and deadly if it does not bring us to Christ. That purely nominal kind of Catholicism is no more saving than the ability to demonstrate the existence of God - the demons don’t doubt His existence (they are hardly in a position to do so) but much good it does them.​

The Pope has prayed with animists, so I guess they must have a special place in Gods plans. A snake even appeared and gave them all a special sign.

Buddhists - well “His Holiness” The Deli Lama is still a Buddhist and John Paul had a special relationship with him, so I guess they must be OK.

Hindus are making a “loving, trusting flight toward God”, so I guess they are OK.

The Jews - well they are our “Elder Brothers” - and the Old Covenant still stands - So they are OK.

The only people in need of conversion are those who are puzzled by an about turn on Church teaching on other religions since 1958.

We all need conversion - see here:​

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6paen.htm

 

[Hildebrand]

The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure]
the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All

who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom.

First, this is from a Wednesday Audience. If it were from an encyclical, you might have reason to complain.

Second, to live in accordance to the beatitudes, there is a very high likelihood you are being guided by the Holy Spirit. It takes a certain amount of holiness to do so. The Ten Commandments are easier to follow because they are all negatives, while the beatitudes are all positives. They require doing/being something. To follow the Ten Commandments, for the most part, you must not do this or that.

Third, *lovingly endure the sufferings of life: *the Catholic Church has the most developed teaching on suffering. This requirement is hard enough all by itself.

Fourth, All who seek God with a sincere heart: I assume this does not include many of our protestant brothers and sisters who presume God will forgive all their sins no matter what. Meaning just having “faith” is like possessing an infinite number of Monopoly get out of hell free card. This is NOT seeking God with a sincere heart. Try that with your spouse. **Honey, since you love me so much, I will have as many affairs as I want, and you will forgive me because I have faith in you! **Presumption is sinning against the Holy Spirit.

Possessing a truly sincere heart… difficult.

Fifth, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom,the kingdom of God is the Catholic Church. Do you honestly believe the Protestants who slam Catholics as Mary worshipers are building up the Catholic Church. How about those who lambaste the concept of the Vicar of Christ? etc, etc, etc.

Whenever I hear a “good” protestant say anything against the Church’s teachings or spread lies or distortions, I internally weep for his/her salvation. These lies and attacks may bring some uninformed/troubled Catholics to leave the Catholic Church or may stop others from considering the Catholic Church. This is a VERY SERIOUS sin. Will many of them ever repent of it before their judgement? Pray for their salvation and conversion.

In conclusion, not many outside of the Church can be saved by the standards of the pope’s *semi-informal *statements.

The inactive Protestants do not build the kingdom of God (Catholic Church), nor are they likely to live by all of the beatitudes.

The active protestants will struggle living the beatitudes (like the rest of us) and will not have a place to receive certain forgiveness if they fail to follow the beatitudes. The active Protestants are somewhat likely to do a great deal of harm to the Catholic Church (Kingdom of God) for obvious reasons.

I think you get the gist, so I won’t go to the other religions.