Conversion through marriage Question

[Alexandria2020]

a female friend of mine, who’s Ruthenian (Byzantine), is planning to marry an Oriental Orthodox (Malankara Orthodox). The guy is perfectly fine with converting to Catholicism. the counterpart EC church for him would be the Malankara Catholic Church. but my question is, as he is converting through marriage, would he be a part of the Byzantine Church or the Malankara Church?

would the first step be for him to convert into his counterpart EC church? this is more interesting, as the person converting is the male.

 

[Vico]

a female friend of mine, who’s Ruthenian (Byzantine), is planning to marry an Oriental Orthodox (Syriac Orthodox). The guy is perfectly fine with converting to Catholicism. the counterpart EC church for him would be the Malankara Catholic Church. but my question is, as he is converting through marriage, would he be a part of the Byzantine Church or the Malankara Church?

would the first step be for him to convert into his counterpart EC church? this is more interesting, as the person converting is the male.

From one of these?

• Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church (JSOC)
• Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (MOSC)

The woman has some flexibility in ascription.

CCEO

Canon 33 - A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

Canon 35 - Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (MOSC)

Yes MOSC…

 

[Elvis_George]

I honestly think it’s her and his choice alone…He is not Jacobite so there might be complications as we don’t really have any agreement with the MOSC on marriages or any sacraments yet

 

[Alexandria2020]

I honestly think it’s her and his choice alone…He is not Jacobite so there might be complications as we don’t really have any agreement with the MOSC on marriages or any sacraments yet

oh so the Catholic Church has a different stance with the Jacobite and MOSC churches? even tho both the churches are a part of Oriental Orthodoxy.

 

[BartholomewB]

as he is converting through marriage,

Is there such a thing as “converting through marriage”? Surely anyone is free to convert at any time, to the church of their choice (depending only on that church’s willingness to accept them)?

 

[Alexandria2020]

Is there such a thing as “converting through marriage”? Surely anyone is free to convert at any time, to the church of their choice (depending only on that church’s willingness to accept them)?

I guess his main reason for doing this is the marriage.

 

[BartholomewB]

Yes, in his case, that would be his reason for wanting to convert. But that doesn’t make the conversion a different kind of process, does it?

 

[Elvis_George]

Generally, we’ve had better relations with the JSC because of Ignatius Zakka I and Baselios Paulose II, who dedicated their lives to peace and ecueminsm. We see the same thing among Aphrem II and Baselios Thomas I. The MOSC however, has not made such agreements yet. It’s not that we are against them, just that our relations are not as developed as both sides are not as interested to have good relations while many from the Patriarchal faction like Kuriakose Mar Theopholis, Baselios Paulose II, and Ignatius Zakka I and many from the Catholic side like Mar Joseph Kallarangatt, Bishop Sylvester, Thomas Mar Coorilos, Baselios Cleemis, Mar George Alenchery were interested to resolve their issues and to have a better understanding and relationship with eachother

 

[Elvis_George]

among the St Thomas Christians, conversions from marriages are very common and I wouldn’t say it’s the same process for someone converting. The husbands denomination is what the wife has to join among the St Thomas Christians. In the catholic church, a bishop does have a right to stop a marriage if the churches do not have any agreement among eachother, so basically, if a catholic, latin, Syro Malabar, or Syro Malankara, marries someone who is not catholic, they will have to ask the bishop first. The bishop will decide if the marriage is possible. This applies to all denominations except for the Jacobite Syrian Church, because we do have an agreement with them concerning marriage. If the bishops allows the couple to get married, the women must join the religion of the husband. So often times when pentecostals/Mar Thoma/CSI women marry Catholic men, they must go to a RCIA,while you don’t have to do so if ur MOSC. But then again, vice versa does occur

 

[Vico]

Alexandria2020:

as he is converting through marriage,

Is there such a thing as “converting through marriage”? Surely anyone is free to convert at any time, to the church of their choice (depending only on that church’s willingness to accept them)?

See the canons in this post: Conversion through marriage Question - #2 by Vico

 

[BartholomewB]

Thank you, @Vico. I hadn’t noticed the abbreviation CCEO, which is new to me.

The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (Latin: Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium, abbreviated CCEO ) is the title of the 1990 codification of the common portions of the Canon Law for the 23 Eastern Catholic churches in the Catholic Church . It is divided into 30 titles and has a total of 1546 canons.

That explains it. The rules are quite different than what they are in our western Latin church.

 

[Vico]

Thank you, @Vico. I hadn’t noticed the abbreviation CCEO, which is new to me.

The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (Latin: Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium, abbreviated CCEO ) is the title of the 1990 codification of the common portions of the Canon Law for the 23 Eastern Catholic churches in the Catholic Church . It is divided into 30 titles and has a total of 1546 canons.

That explains it. The rules are quite different than what they are in our western Latin church.

Yes there are some significant differences between the two codes.

So if the MOSC fiance was not first received into the Catholic Church then there would have to be compliance with these canons from CCEO, shown below (which are similar to CIC canons 1124-1126):

Canon 813 Marriage between two baptized persons, one of whom is Catholic and the other of whom is non-Catholic, is prohibited without the prior permission of the competent authority.

Canon 814 For a just reason the local hierarch can grant permission; however he is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled: (1) the Catholic party declares that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of falling away from the faith and makes a sincere promise to do all in his or her power to have all the offspring baptized and educated in the Catholic Church; (2) the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time of these promises which the Catholic party has to make, so that it is clear that the other party is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party; (3) both parties are to be instructed on the essential ends and poperties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either spouse.

Canon 815 The particular law of each Church sui iuris is to establish the manner in which these declarations or promises, which are always required, are to be made, what proof of them there should be in the external forum and how they are to be brought to the attention of the non-Catholic party.

 

[Alexandria2020]

So if the MOSC fiance was not first received into the Catholic Church

So in this case since the person is willing he would be a part of the Malankara Catholic Church. And so the future children would be Malankara Catholics as well.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

So if the MOSC fiance was not first received into the Catholic Church

So in this case since the person is willing he would be a part of the Malankara Catholic Church. And so the future children would be Malankara Catholics as well.

If, both being Catholic, they both agree, the children can be of either the Ruthenian or the Malankara. If the husband remains Orthodox then the children would be Ruthenian.

CCEO

Canon 29 - §1. By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See.
§2. If the child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year is:
1° born of an unwed mother, he is enrolled in the Church sui iuris to which the mother belongs;
2° born of unknown parents, he is to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of those in whose care he has been legitimately committed are enrolled; if it is a case of an adoptive father and mother, 1 should be applied;
3° born of non-baptized parents, the child is to be a member of the Church sui iuris of the one who is responsible for his education in the Catholic faith.

 

[dochawk]

Is there such a thing as “converting through marriage”?

I don’t know about conversion, but a wife may ascribe to her husband’s ritual church at time of marriage (or his transfer afterwards). I don’t know if or how much this works for husbands, though.

 

[Alexandria2020]

So often times when pentecostals/Mar Thoma/CSI women marry Catholic men, they must go to a RCIA

the CSI (Church of South India)… are they technically like the Episcopal Church of India? is it true they are in communion with the Mar Thoma church?

 

[otjm]

I have attended a Ruthenian Rite Catholic Church, but there is no Syro-Malankara Rite Catholic Church to be had; San Jose or VAncouver B.C being the closest.

Having no clue as to where this couple lives, I suspect that they may be faced with a similar choice subject to where they choose to live after marriage.

Interesting theoretical question, but subject to where the rubber meets the road.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

So if the MOSC fiance was not first received into the Catholic Church

So in this case since the person is willing he would be a part of the Malankara Catholic Church. And so the future children would be Malankara Catholics as well.

Also, if he does not come into full communion first, then the marriage would normally be celebrated in the parish of the woman (Ruthenian) by her pastor. If he comes into full communion before marriage, then the converse would be normal.

 

[Alexandria2020]

I have attended a Ruthenian Rite Catholic Church, but there is no Syro-Malankara Rite Catholic Church to be had; San Jose or VAncouver B.C being the closest.

both are present in the NJ/NY area. Infact the Malankara cathedral ( Eparchy of St. Mary, Queen of Peace) is based in Elmont, NY and the Byzantine Eparchy of Passaic is based in NJ and covers East coast US.
But overall yes, the Malankara eparchy is small- it covers for both US and Canada and only has about 17 parishes.