Conversion to Mormonism?

[Porknpie]

They are not the same church…very little resemblance between Catholic Church and the Early Church of Christ.

Well you’re arguing with St Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of St John the Apostle, who himself was taught by Christ.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, **wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” **Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

I’ll trust St Ignatius and not a man 1,730 years later. I’ll trust St Cyprian too.

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while **the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests **who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

And more…

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious **Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, **and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. Therefore let this most holy and great synod sentence the before mentioned Dioscorus to the canonical penalties.” Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

It’s important to note what Jesus said in Matthew 16

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Christ’s Church is the Catholic Church…

PnP

 

[TexanKnight]

It is clear Evan does not know very much about his “church”. He is good at finding responses and cutting and pasting his responses, but avoids the hard topics and rarely responds to the facts he knows he cannot refute regarding the false prophesies, the racism, the multiple versions of the first vision, the lack of any evidence, etc etc.

While I appreciate his ability to cut and paste, it is telling that he has no responses to the issues that actually lead people away from the LDS Church.

I do not believe anyone would convert to the LDS Church if they knew all the issues we discuss here about the true past of the lds church and its leaders. The problem is, when people are taught about the church for the first time, the lds church sounds like a protestant church with the exception that Jesus came here, too…and that sounds pretty good.

It is a real shame the lds church must hide their past and reject their prophets in order to entice people to join.

When I was studying the Catholic Church, I was encouraged to read about the crusades, the inquisition, and the bad popes. I was in my expedited RCIA during the Priest Scandal and this was discussed at length.

I felt like nothing was being hidden…one of my “instructors” even gave me some anti-Catholic books to read in order to see what the issues were.

When I became Catholic, it was truly an informed and prayerful decision.

When I became Mormon, it was “Fraud in the inducement”.

 

[Marie5890]

I do not believe anyone would convert to the LDS Church if they knew all the issues we discuss here about the true past of the lds church and its leaders. The problem is, when people are taught about the church for the first time, the lds church sounds like a protestant church with the exception that Jesus came here, too…and that sounds pretty good.

It is a real shame the lds church must hide their past and reject their prophets in order to entice people to join.

So very true and I believe the same. When people join the LDS church, they really are not coming from being properly informed.

And, like you, my RCIA experience was the same. We were encourage to research research research research. And bring any and all questions and concerns with us when we gathered.

At first, when I realized how long the RCIA journey would be for me (over a year of meeting weekly) I was put off by how long it would take. As time went on, however, and the total LACK of ANY pressure, I appreciated. It gave me time, real time, to study, ask questions, ANY questions, without reservation or concern.

RCIA was a great gift.

 

[TexanKnight]

So very true and I believe the same. When people join the LDS church, they really are not coming from being properly informed.

And, like you, my RCIA experience was the same. We were encourage to research research research research. And bring any and all questions and concerns with us when we gathered.

At first, when I realized how long the RCIA journey would be for me (over a year of meeting weekly) I was put off by how long it would take. As time went on, however, and the total LACK of ANY pressure, I appreciated. It gave me time, real time, to study, ask questions, ANY questions, without reservation or concern.

RCIA was a great gift.

Compare the two…Mormons teach a series of 6 or 7 short missionary discussions over 30-60 days, taught by 19-year-old kids who took 3 weeks to 2 months of training and who have no clue about their church and could not answer any questions even if the investigator had any.

The Catholic Church teach a program that takes a year of weekly classes taught by someone who has been specifically trained. Questions are encouraged and all warts discussed. Research is encouraged and expected.

The difference is staggering.

 

[Z_Ninja]

I had taken the discussions with the missionaries and by the third visit we’re asking me to be baptized. Even saying just get baptized to “try it out” and see if I like it. I always felt pressured to join the LDS church even though I stated I just wanted to learn about it.

 

[debbie_h]

Compare the two…Mormons teach a series of 6 or 7 short missionary discussions over 30-60 days, taught by 19-year-old kids who took 3 weeks to 2 months of training and who have no clue about their church and could not answer any questions even if the investigator had any.

The Catholic Church teach a program that takes a year of weekly classes taught by someone who has been specifically trained. Questions are encouraged and all warts discussed. Research is encouraged and expected.

The difference is staggering.

The missionaries also come to the LDS families homes & teach the same 6-7 part lessons on these flip cards to the children who are being baptised on their 8th birthday.

 

[debbie_h]

I had taken the discussions with the missionaries and by the third visit we’re asking me to be baptized. Even saying just get baptized to “try it out” and see if I like it. I always felt pressured to join the LDS church even though I stated I just wanted to learn about it.

I’ve seen this happen often while growing up LDS. What irked me was that the missionaries & my parents had no problem with trying to give lesions to me & my sisters non-LDS friends without their parents consent.

 

[taylorf]

I had taken the discussions with the missionaries and by the third visit we’re asking me to be baptized. Even saying just get baptized to “try it out” and see if I like it. I always felt pressured to join the LDS church even though I stated I just wanted to learn about it.

We were instructed to commit people to baptism as soon as they felt good (aka “feeling the spirit”) even if it was as early as the first discussion. Catch them in the moment, otherwise they might have time to let their rational, logical side (aka Satan) conclude that the church was false. It’s such a scam sales operation and I’m embarrassed to have been a part of it.

 

[iepuras]

So very true and I believe the same. When people join the LDS church, they really are not coming from being properly informed.

And, like you, my RCIA experience was the same. We were encourage to research research research research. And bring any and all questions and concerns with us when we gathered.

At first, when I realized how long the RCIA journey would be for me (over a year of meeting weekly) I was put off by how long it would take. As time went on, however, and the total LACK of ANY pressure, I appreciated. It gave me time, real time, to study, ask questions, ANY questions, without reservation or concern.

RCIA was a great gift.

Indeed, RCIA is a great gift. No question was out of bounds. Not only were taught what the Catholics believe but why. Catholicism simply became more and more reasonable. I was in RCIA for about 14 months before baptism. I appreciated the length and lack of pressure because I was able to make the necessary changes in my life to become Catholic.

 

[TexanKnight]

We were instructed to commit people to baptism as soon as they felt good (aka “feeling the spirit”) even if it was as early as the first discussion. Catch them in the moment, otherwise they might have time to let their rational, logical side (aka Satan) conclude that the church was false. It’s such a scam sales operation and I’m embarrassed to have been a part of it.

I agree. In college, I sold Cutco knives. When I was in the MTC, I was surprised at how alike the sales pitch to become LDS and the sales pitch to sell Cutco were.

I decided at the MTC I would never use the flip charts and canned discussions. I taught the discussions using my own words. I never used theirs.

Of course, I was 24-26 on my mission and a college grad. I felt like I was babysitting my companions who were 19-21. They needed, I guess, the memorized sales pitch.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’ve seen this happen often while growing up LDS. What irked me was that the missionaries & my parents had no problem with trying to give lesions to me & my sisters non-LDS friends without their parents consent.

It’s not just your parents who practiced this despicable underhanded conversion effort. I’ve read quite a few who were converted this way and LDS church members give kudos to those people who deceived parents and encouraged children to lie to their parents. As a result of these stories and my cousin’s experience I have made sure my kids don’t spend time in a Mormon home.

 

[Telstar]

Fabius,

This is the Mormons understanding of the fall…

Did God know in advance that Adam and Even would eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and become mortal? Of course! God is all knowing and it would diminish his power to say he did not. In fact, according to Mormon theology, that was part of God’s plan.

Saying that God didn’t know what would happen would ‘diminish his power’, so that’s not ok. But, for LDS to claim that God can’t make something out of nothing is ok, even though that negates His power to a much higher degree?

But, I think that could be a whole 'nother subject for a different thread.

The Lord gave Adam and Eve commandments in the Garden of Eden, two of which were to multiply and replenish the earth (see Gen. 1:28) and to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Gen. 2:17). These two commandments were designed to place Adam and Eve in a position where they had to make a choice.
President Smith taught: “The Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so.”

Faced with this dilemma, Adam and Eve chose death—both physical and spiritual—which opened the door for themselves and their posterity to gain knowledge and experience and to participate in the Father’s plan of happiness leading to eternal life.

“DR-Genesis 1 [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.”

God would never have told them to do something that He knew they could not do. That would be completely contradictory and God doesn’t contradict Himself. Leaving the Garden was not necessary for them to have children. They already had His permission to ‘multiply’, so that entire premise is a moot point.

Look what the Book of Mormon says on the matter:

“If Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. …
“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:22–25).

Mormons do not see the disobedience of Adam and Even as “sin”, but as a transgression that caused them to become mortal after eating of the fruit and thus fulfilling the designs of God.

As someone already said, transgression = sin. This is where the concept of Original Sin comes from, as taught by almost every form of Christianity. Adam committed the Original Sin that caused the punishment of all mankind from that day forward. Baptism is necessary to wash away the stain of that sin from all of our souls.

God would never tell His children to do anything sinful so something good could happen as a result. That would be another example of God contradicting Himself. It would also make God the instigator of an evil deed (a sin), something that is completely impossible because He can never be, or do, anything evil.

IMHO, that’s yet another proof that the BoM is completely false and could never have been written by anyone ‘inspired of God’.

Did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve?…He certainly did because it happened. But he did it with a purpose.

Yes, Satan lied when he said: “You will not certainly die,” but he told the truth when he said: “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Gen 3:4-5 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Gen 3:6-7

If God already told Adam and Eve that they had to eat the fruit in order to have children and continue God’s ‘plan’ (according to the BoM & JS), then why would Satan have to ‘temp’ them at all? That makes no sense, either. They would have been free to choose for themselves, without having to be ‘tempted’ by Satan. This premise makes God look like He’s in cahoots with Satan! God forbid!! :bigyikes:

Can’t you see how all of these inconsistencies in the BoM and LDS beliefs about the fall of Adam & Eve add up to none of it making any logical or spiritual sense?

 

[Marie5890]

Whenever I hear of someone converting to Mormonism, or at least thinking about it, I have one mantra.

DO.THE.RESEARCH.AND.TAKE.YOUR.TIME.

There is zero zero zero zero reason to commit to something so serious as baptism and joining a church in just a short amount of time.

There is no reason for anyone thinking of joining Mormonism without being fully educated and informed of everything. Doctrines, practices, history.

The “warm fuzzies” are not a reason to become Mormon, or any other denomination, for that matter.

Take your time and research.

 

[twopekinguys]

Indeed, RCIA is a great gift. No question was out of bounds. Not only were taught what the Catholics believe but why. Catholicism simply became more and more reasonable. I was in RCIA for about 14 months before baptism. I appreciated the length and lack of pressure because I was able to make the necessary changes in my life to become Catholic.

I was the Lay Director of RCIA parish for almost 20 years, and the first thing I ever told an inquirer was “No question is out of bounds…EVER”

We would also meet one on one with each of them and their sponsors to see if they were experiencing and problems with the teachings. Many times, people don’t want to express things in an open classroom, so we wanted to make it as easy for them as possible, and made sure they had ALL of the information they needed.

I also told them at the beginning that if this wasn’t the right time for them, then we would hug, pray, and send them on their way. We NEVER hounded anyone for their decision not to come into the Church.

One of my favorite lines (I loved to make them laugh) was, “You have until 5 minutes before the start of the Easter Vigil to back out. After that, I will drag you down the aisle. You’re not going to mess up my seating chart!!”

In the almost 20 years that I served, our parish brought in over 500 new members, for an average of 25 people per year. (all adults)

Some of our RCIA alumni have gone on to be Priests and Deacons. How is that for retention? LOL

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Fabius,

This is the Mormons understanding of the fall…

Did God know in advance that Adam and Even would eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and become mortal? Of course! God is all knowing and it would diminish his power to say he did not. In fact, according to Mormon theology, that was part of God’s plan.

The Lord gave Adam and Eve commandments in the Garden of Eden, two of which were to multiply and replenish the earth (see Gen. 1:28) and to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Gen. 2:17). These two commandments were designed to place Adam and Eve in a position where they had to make a choice. President Smith taught: “The Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so.” Faced with this dilemma, Adam and Eve chose death—both physical and spiritual—which opened the door for themselves and their posterity to gain knowledge and experience and to participate in the Father’s plan of happiness leading to eternal life.

Look what the Book of Mormon says on the matter:

*“If Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. …

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:22–25).*

Mormons do not see the disobedience of Adam and Even as “sin”, but as a transgression that caused them to become mortal after eating of the fruit and thus fulfilling the designs of God.

lds.org/ensign/2006/06/the-fulness-of-the-gospel-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

So the LDS Church teaches that man could not reproduce if he did not partake of the fruit? Why would God create man without the possibility to reproduce? Also, God mentions reproduction during the fall:

---

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”*** (Genesis 3:16)

Here it doesn’t imply that man couldn’t have procreated - the opposite, that it had become more difficult and painful (for the woman) after the fall.

Did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve?…He certainly did because it happened. But he did it with a purpose.

Yes, Satan lied when he said: “You will not certainly die,” but he told the truth when he said: “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Gen 3:4-5

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Gen 3:6-7

I don’t think there is much objection over whether God allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted. He did, after all, give them (us) free will. But I don’t see why, if them partaking of the fruit is something positive, why he expelled them from Eden in the first place. It almost sounds like God backed them into a corner to make them sin. They couldn’t have just asked God for wisdom and knowledge? Can you clarify this for me?

 

[Z_Ninja]

We were instructed to commit people to baptism as soon as they felt good (aka “feeling the spirit”) even if it was as early as the first discussion. Catch them in the moment, otherwise they might have time to let their rational, logical side (aka Satan) conclude that the church was false. It’s such a scam sales operation and I’m embarrassed to have been a part of it.

Crazy thing was, I never gave any inkling I felt good about it, even that my Catholic faith was being strengthened. Also, none of my questions were answered. I asked if LDS see bread as literally the body of Christ, since I believe in the real presence, the missionaries said they’d get back to me. Another thing I hear is the LDS doesn’t force anyone to get baptized, a la infant baptism, so the person has a choice… At 8 years old, that hardly seems like the child truly has a choice in the matter.

 

[evanfaust]

So the LDS Church teaches that man could not reproduce if he did not partake of the fruit? Why would God create man without the possibility to reproduce? Also, God mentions reproduction during the fall:

---

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”*** (Genesis 3:16)

Here it doesn’t imply that man couldn’t have procreated - the opposite, that it had become more difficult and painful (for the woman) after the fall.

I don’t think there is much objection over whether God allowed Adam and Eve to be tempted. He did, after all, give them (us) free will. But I don’t see why, if them partaking of the fruit is something positive, why he expelled them from Eden in the first place. It almost sounds like God backed them into a corner to make them sin. They couldn’t have just asked God for wisdom and knowledge? Can you clarify this for me?

Fabius…

If we assume for a moment that man could reproduce in his innocent state before the fall, then we are to infer that God had intentions to create the human race in a wonderful and happy world without pain and troubles.

And if that is the case, then based on what happened with Adam and Eve we have to conclude that Satan frustrated the plans of God? Don’t we all know that God is more powerful and more intelligent than Satan? Are we to conclude that the entire human race is suffering because of the transgression of our father Adam and mother Eve? It is like saying…oops, God did not plan this properly! Which of course no one believes that is the case. I think it makes more sense to believe that God’s plan was to allow men to go through pain and the difficulties of this world in order for them to grow spiritually and gain wisdom…and he used Satan to accomplish his plan.

In fact, per the scripture it seems clear that Adam and Even understood that the only way to gain wisdom and to know good and evil was to eat of the fruit that God forbade. As I put in my comment…God gave two commandments, to procreate and not to eat of the fruit. You see that after they ate of the fruit they noticed they were naked, which means that they probably felt physical desire for each other after breaking the commandment and that desire was the way to fulfill the commandment of procreation.

Wisdom and knowledge cannot be obtained without pain, sacrifice, struggles and difficulties. This world was created with that purpose. Can we gain wisdom if we don’t go through the experiences of life? We usually have more wisdom after living many years in this life. Don’t you agree?

 

[TexanKnight]

Fabius…

If we assume for a moment that man could reproduce in his innocent state before the fall, then we are to infer that God had intentions to create the human race in a wonderful and happy world without pain and troubles.

And if that is the case, then based on what happened with Adam and Eve we have to conclude that Satan frustrated the plans of God? Don’t we all know that God is more powerful and more intelligent than Satan? Are we to conclude that the entire human race is suffering because of the transgression of our father Adam and mother Eve? It is like saying…oops, God did not plan this properly! Which of course no one believes that is the case. I think it makes more sense to believe that God’s plan was to allow men to go through pain and the difficulties of this world in order for them to grow spiritually and gain wisdom…and he used Satan to accomplish his plan.

In fact, per the scripture it seems clear that Adam and Even understood that the only way to gain wisdom and to know good and evil was to eat of the fruit that God forbade. As I put in my comment…God gave two commandments, to procreate and not to eat of the fruit. You see that after they ate of the fruit they noticed they were naked, which means that they probably felt physical desire for each other after breaking the commandment and that desire was the way to fulfill the commandment of procreation.

Wisdom and knowledge cannot be obtained without pain, sacrifice, struggles and difficulties. This world was created with that purpose. Can we gain wisdom if we don’t go through the experiences of life? We usually have more wisdom after living many years in this life. Don’t you agree?

and you still dodge the truly tough problems and facts that disprove your church and your alleged prophets.

And you have shown that you truly do not know your church or its history.

 

[Z_Ninja]

Fabius…

If we assume for a moment that man could reproduce in his innocent state before the fall, then we are to infer that God had intentions to create the human race in a wonderful and happy world without pain and troubles.

And if that is the case, then based on what happened with Adam and Eve we have to conclude that Satan frustrated the plans of God? Don’t we all know that God is more powerful and more intelligent than Satan? Are we to conclude that the entire human race is suffering because of the transgression of our father Adam and mother Eve? It is like saying…oops, God did not plan this properly! Which of course no one believes that is the case. I think it makes more sense to believe that God’s plan was to allow men to go through pain and the difficulties of this world in order for them to grow spiritually and gain wisdom…and he used Satan to accomplish his plan.

In fact, per the scripture it seems clear that Adam and Even understood that the only way to gain wisdom and to know good and evil was to eat of the fruit that God forbade. As I put in my comment…God gave two commandments, to procreate and not to eat of the fruit. You see that after they ate of the fruit they noticed they were naked, which means that they probably felt physical desire for each other after breaking the commandment and that desire was the way to fulfill the commandment of procreation.

Wisdom and knowledge cannot be obtained without pain, sacrifice, struggles and difficulties. This world was created with that purpose. Can we gain wisdom if we don’t go through the experiences of life? We usually have more wisdom after living many years in this life. Don’t you agree?

God created humans and that creation He saw as good. Of course He wanted Humans to live in paradise, but with free will, Adam and Eve were tricked by the serpent into thinking they can become like gods. That was the desire, not for each other, at least not yet. All they needed to do was ask God and/or trust in God to give them knowledge. As an example, King Solomon only asked and God granted him wisdom. But, as we know, he squandered that gift by… wait for it… Disobeying God, his lustfulness, and being lured into worshipping idols and false gods.

 

[zaffiroborant]

In fact, per the scripture it seems clear that Adam and Even understood that the only way to gain wisdom and to know good and evil was to eat of the fruit that God forbade.

Interesting that LDS still listen to the serpent’s words telling that the only way to wisdom is to disobey God. I would think that living in the garden and having God walk and talk with them would certainly bring wisdom.

As I put in my comment…God gave two commandments, to procreate and not to eat of the fruit. You see that after they ate of the fruit they noticed they were naked, which means that they probably felt physical desire for each other after breaking the commandment and that desire was the way to fulfill the commandment of procreation.

I refuse to see my children as a result of sin, “male and female created He them” we were created from the beginning male and female to share in the creative power of God, to have children. So sad that you think you have to sin to have children, what an awful way to see your children and God.

Wisdom and knowledge cannot be obtained without pain, sacrifice, struggles and difficulties. This world was created with that purpose. Can we gain wisdom if we don’t go through the experiences of life? We usually have more wisdom after living many years in this life. Don’t you agree?

Pain, sacrifice, struggle and difficulties do not guarantee wisdom, they just as often produce bitterness, hatred, indifference and cruelty. In contrast a life of little hardship can lead to wisdom if lived reflectively. The difference in these outcomes is not in the life lived but in obedience to God.