Conversion to Mormonism?

[evanfaust]

I think as Christians we should always be ready to respond to claims of even organizations such as FARMS, instead of just dismissing them as anti-scholarly. Far too often Evangelical scholars are dismissed as “apologists” by secular or atheist critics, even though their work is as valuable and respectable as their own. Any defense of one of the more “unbelievable” accounts in the Bible, such as that of Noah’s Ark, is often immediately rejected even before the author can get a word in on its possibility.

Thanks for your common sense and fairness Fabius! I noticed that you have your beliefs, but have an open mind and try to be fair. What is discouraging here is the fact that the great majority just assume stuff and dismiss them before even reading what it is about. It is very sad!

Some people have preconceived ideas and patterns to see the world and are very quick to dismiss any new ideas or new way of thinking.

In a way It is similar to the times when Catholic authorities used to say that the earth was flat and even forced a scientist like Galileu to accept it. I am glad we live in a place and time when we have more freedom of expression and cannot be forced to think in a certain way. But, even in the times of freedom of today, if you subscribe or explore new ways of thinking or beliefs people tend to ridicule and slander you.

 

[TexanKnight]

Thanks for your common sense and fairness Fabius! I noticed that you have your beliefs, but have an open mind and try to be fair. What is discouraging here is the fact that the great majority just assume stuff and dismiss them before even reading what it is about. It is very sad!

No. Most of us who respond do not assume anything. We KNOW…We have been lds. We have studied it. We studied our way out of it.

Some people have preconceived ideas and patterns to see the world and are very quick to dismiss any new ideas or new way of thinking.

Yes…our “new way of thinking” is how we were led out of the lds Church and into the True Church

In a way It is similar to the times when Catholic authorities used to say that the earth was flat and even forced a scientist like Galileu to accept it.

Or like when js said that Cumorah in NY was where the final battle occurred and forced everyone to accept it…until it was clear there were no artifacts to prove it…then they claimed it was NOT the real Cumorah

I am glad we live in a place and time when we have more freedom of expression and cannot be forced to think in a certain way. But, even in the times of freedom of today, if you subscribe or explore new ways of thinking or beliefs people tend to ridicule and slander you.

Yeah…when I decided to leave the lds church, Mormons tried to kidnap my kids because I was no longer a fit father for lds children. I was told I could not speak against the lds church even in my own home. I was not impressed with the freedom of expression allowed…

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Thanks for your common sense and fairness Fabius! I noticed that you have your beliefs, but have an open mind and try to be fair. What is discouraging here is the fact that the great majority just assume stuff and dismiss them before even reading what it is about. It is very sad!

Some people have preconceived ideas and patterns to see the world and are very quick to dismiss any new ideas or new way of thinking.

I’m not sure if it’s common sense more than that I’ve had similar discussions with an atheist friend of mine who has tended to dismiss everything I had to say and post because it supported a Christian point of view. Because* obviously*, scholars who doubt the accuracy of the Bible must be the more “expert” ones. My original intention in opening this thread was to discover how an LDS like yourself would defend Mormonism from general criticism. I figured there must be some kind of reasoning to it, just like I would have to defend my beliefs.

In a way It is similar to the times when Catholic authorities used to say that the earth was flat and even forced a scientist like Galileu to accept it. I am glad we live in a place and time when we have more freedom of expression and cannot be forced to think in a certain way. But, even in the times of freedom of today, if you subscribe or explore new ways of thinking or beliefs people tend to ridicule and slander you.

Oh boy, well I’d say just prepare yourself because you just opened another whole can of worms.

 

[Stephen168]

In a way It is similar to the times when Catholic authorities used to say that the earth was flat and even forced a scientist like Galileu to accept it. I am glad we live in a place and time when we have more freedom of expression and cannot be forced to think in a certain way. But, even in the times of freedom of today, if you subscribe or explore new ways of thinking or beliefs people tend to ridicule and slander you.

You have no idea about the facts of the Galileo Affair. But we still live in those time because then like now you have to prove your case. Mormonism fails in its attempt to prove it is a restored Church of Jesus Christ. That is why you ignore the posts which require you to do so. Who was the prophet and leader of Christianity in 70AD?

 

[PaulDupre1]

I think as Christians we should always be ready to respond to claims of even organizations such as FARMS, instead of just dismissing them as anti-scholarly. Far too often Evangelical scholars are dismissed as “apologists” by secular or atheist critics, even though their work is as valuable and respectable as their own. Any defense of one of the more “unbelievable” accounts in the Bible, such as that of Noah’s Ark, is often immediately rejected even before the author can get a word in on its possibility.

You are right, we should always prepare ourselves with an understanding of what we believe and why we believe it.
Saint Peter:

15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it.

-1 Peter 3:15 New Living Translation (NLT)

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[taylorf]

I think as Christians we should always be ready to respond to claims of even organizations such as FARMS, instead of just dismissing them as anti-scholarly.

I don’t think anyone is dismissing as anti-scholarly. Coming from Mormonism I studied FAIR a lot and found that they pick and choose to fit their argument. One historical figure is quoted when supporting Mormonism but is dismissed as unreliable when contradicting. There really isn’t anything scholarly about what they do.

 

[taylorf]

Ever notice how Evan never really responds to the tough points?

Janderich, mtolympus, TOmNossor, NeuroTypical, Alma147…they all do. They cherry pick the easy parts of posts to respond. The rest they ignore because they have no answer.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I don’t think anyone is dismissing as anti-scholarly. Coming from Mormonism I studied FAIR a lot and found that they pick and choose to fit their argument. One historical figure is quoted when supporting Mormonism but is dismissed as unreliable when contradicting. There really isn’t anything scholarly about what they do.

True, but that is the kind of shoddy scholarship we, as Christians, should challenge. We need to be prepared to counter that sort of shoddy scholarship.

The best way to start to prepare is to study the Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up all of the many bible passages and other texts that it references. I have found it a wealth of wisdom and historical evidence for the true Church.

Mormons are strong on “testimony” but weak on the historical and logical basis to support such a testimony. A thorough knowledge of Catholic history is a formidable weapon in defending The Truth, who is Jesus Christ.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[evanfaust]

LOLOL. Show me ANYWHERE in the Bible where there were temple ceremonies that included dressing in funny clothes, having secret handshakes, secret signs and blood oaths where you show each other how you will kill and be killed? I challenge you to show me where that existed in the old testament. You can’t. The whole temple ceremony is repetitious. So repetitious that, even after so many years away from the temple, I can still quote huge sections of it. No, the lds temple ceremony resembles the Masonic ceremony js stole it from.

Here is an article on the subject, but there are many others and even books.Like I said…you don’t go far enough on your research.

This article discusses the following:

Initiation
The Handclasp
Secret Words
Prayer Circle
Passing the Angels
Admitted into God’s Presence

fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/1999-fair-conference/1999-early-christian-and-jewish-rituals-related-to-temple-practices

 

[zaffiroborant]

I don’t think anyone is dismissing as anti-scholarly. Coming from Mormonism I studied FAIR a lot and found that they pick and choose to fit their argument. One historical figure is quoted when supporting Mormonism but is dismissed as unreliable when contradicting. There really isn’t anything scholarly about what they do.

I don’t trust FAIR, I’ve seen them rearrange a paragraph making it state the opposite of what the quoted material said. I won’t read FAIR unless I have a lot of time to actually look up their quotes and read them in context. Often I find that if I look up what is quoted much is lost in the truncation. For me FAIR is questionable until proven otherwise.

 

[evanfaust]

You have no idea about the facts of the Galileo Affair. But we still live in those time because then like now you have to prove your case. Mormonism fails in its attempt to prove it is a restored Church of Jesus Christ. That is why you ignore the posts which require you to do so. Who was the prophet and leader of Christianity in 70AD?

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun? Add to this the fact that Galileo was cruelly imprisoned and forced to recant under the pains of torture. Modern science now shows that Galileo was right and the “infallible” pope was wrong.

Is this enough evidence of Catholic Church persecution of Galileo?

law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

Are these scriptures enough evidence of the Apostasy

lds.org/scriptures/tg/apostasy-of-the-early-christian-church?lang=eng

I will give you a little more on the apostasy. You may not accept, but don’t tell us that we don’t enough scriptural basis and history for the apostasy.

boap.org/LDS/Apostasy.pt1.html

The Early Fathers confirming the apostasy

rsc.byu.edu/archived/apostolic-fathers-witnesses-early-christian-apostasy

So…For you or others to say that Mormons don’t have basis to believe in the apostasy of the early church of Christ is not intellectual honesty. I could produce much more material supporting the apostasy…but, the question is, are you really interested in investigating the matter?

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

 

[Stephen168]

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun? Add to this the fact that Galileo was cruelly imprisoned and forced to recant under the pains of torture. Modern science now shows that Galileo was right and the “infallible” pope was wrong.

Is this enough evidence of Catholic Church persecution of Galileo?

law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

Are these scriptures enough evidence of the Apostasy

lds.org/scriptures/tg/apostasy-of-the-early-christian-church?lang=eng

I will give you a little more on the apostasy. You may not accept, but don’t tell us that we don’t enough scriptural basis and history for the apostasy.

boap.org/LDS/Apostasy.pt1.html

The Early Fathers confirming the apostasy

rsc.byu.edu/archived/apostolic-fathers-witnesses-early-christian-apostasy

So…For you or others to say that Mormons don’t have basis to believe in the apostasy of the early church of Christ is not intellectual honesty. I could produce much more material supporting the apostasy…but, the question is, are you really interested in investigating the matter?

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

You don’t know the facts of the Galileo Affair. You don’t know the teachings of the Catholic Church. And you didn’t answer my question. Who was the Christian prophet leader in 70AD?

 

[taylorf]

True, but that is the kind of shoddy scholarship we, as Christians, should challenge. We need to be prepared to counter that sort of shoddy scholarship.

The best way to start to prepare is to study the Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up all of the many bible passages and other texts that it references. I have found it a wealth of wisdom and historical evidence for the true Church.

Mormons are strong on “testimony” but weak on the historical and logical basis to support such a testimony. A thorough knowledge of Catholic history is a formidable weapon in defending The Truth, who is Jesus Christ.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

What I find frustrating though is they fail to acknowledge the obvious contradiction. Fact is, Brigham Young taught Adam-God and modern prophets disavowed his teaching. Isn’t it logical to assume BY was teaching under the direction of the Holy Ghost, or that the Holy Ghost would have guided him away from that teaching given his prophetic calling? He would have been misleading members of his generation. This doesn’t require scholarship, just common sense. They don’t acknowledge it…but just shrug their shoulders and say that it was in the past. Or in Alm147’s case, both were correct. That’s insanity to me.

 

[Stephen168]

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun? Add to this the fact that Galileo was cruelly imprisoned and forced to recant under the pains of torture. Modern science now shows that Galileo was right and the “infallible” pope was wrong.

Is this enough evidence of Catholic Church persecution of Galileo?

law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

Are these scriptures enough evidence of the Apostasy

lds.org/scriptures/tg/apostasy-of-the-early-christian-church?lang=eng

I will give you a little more on the apostasy. You may not accept, but don’t tell us that we don’t enough scriptural basis and history for the apostasy.

boap.org/LDS/Apostasy.pt1.html

The Early Fathers confirming the apostasy

rsc.byu.edu/archived/apostolic-fathers-witnesses-early-christian-apostasy

So…For you or others to say that Mormons don’t have basis to believe in the apostasy of the early church of Christ is not intellectual honesty. I could produce much more material supporting the apostasy…but, the question is, are you really interested in investigating the matter?

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

Yes, you ignored the posts that showed there was never a Former Day Saint Church. It was an invention of Joseph Smith

 

[taylorf]

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

This is such a common response…not enough time. Fine, assuming the Catholic Church is false, do you confirm that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God? Yes or no, that’s all I’m looking for.

 

[zaffiroborant]

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun?

Have you just not bothered to read what has been said here? The church is infallible when it comes to the faith. Not nuclear fusion, or the stock market, or who you should marry. So you won’t see the Catholic Church teaching that Adam is God oh wait a minute that’s wrong he’s not God, sorry about that.

 

[zaffiroborant]

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun? Add to this the fact that Galileo was cruelly imprisoned and forced to recant under the pains of torture. Modern science now shows that Galileo was right and the “infallible” pope was wrong.

Is this enough evidence of Catholic Church persecution of Galileo?

law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

Are these scriptures enough evidence of the Apostasy

lds.org/scriptures/tg/apostasy-of-the-early-christian-church?lang=eng

I will give you a little more on the apostasy. You may not accept, but don’t tell us that we don’t enough scriptural basis and history for the apostasy.

boap.org/LDS/Apostasy.pt1.html

The Early Fathers confirming the apostasy

rsc.byu.edu/archived/apostolic-fathers-witnesses-early-christian-apostasy

So…For you or others to say that Mormons don’t have basis to believe in the apostasy of the early church of Christ is not intellectual honesty. I could produce much more material supporting the apostasy…but, the question is, are you really interested in investigating the matter?

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

All the links you have posted on the so called apostasy are nothing more than out of context quotes that for some reason (particularly in the first lds.org link, which is nothing but a string of bible snippets) LDS think support their interpretation. For LDS to say that Catholics have to interpret this quote mining of scripture as believable support for an apostasy of the entire church is ludicrous nor is it intellectual honesty. It’s just like I said about FAIR nothing you read can be accepted unless you go to original source and read the material in full.

 

[TexanKnight]

Here is an article on the subject, but there are many others and even books.Like I said…you don’t go far enough on your research.

This article discusses the following:

Initiation
The Handclasp
Secret Words
Prayer Circle
Passing the Angels
Admitted into God’s Presence

fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/1999-fair-conference/1999-early-christian-and-jewish-rituals-related-to-temple-practices

lol…I said IN THE BIBLE…not yet another cut and paste from a Mormon. I meant fact, not fiction.

 

[TexanKnight]

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun? Add to this the fact that Galileo was cruelly imprisoned and forced to recant under the pains of torture. Modern science now shows that Galileo was right and the “infallible” pope was wrong.

Is this enough evidence of Catholic Church persecution of Galileo?

law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

Are these scriptures enough evidence of the Apostasy

lds.org/scriptures/tg/apostasy-of-the-early-christian-church?lang=eng

I will give you a little more on the apostasy. You may not accept, but don’t tell us that we don’t enough scriptural basis and history for the apostasy.

boap.org/LDS/Apostasy.pt1.html

The Early Fathers confirming the apostasy

rsc.byu.edu/archived/apostolic-fathers-witnesses-early-christian-apostasy

So…For you or others to say that Mormons don’t have basis to believe in the apostasy of the early church of Christ is not intellectual honesty. I could produce much more material supporting the apostasy…but, the question is, are you really interested in investigating the matter?

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

no…you cut and paste as time permits and ignore the difficult points that you KNOW disprove your church

 

[Stephen168]

I was in a hurry last night so I thought I would give a more complete response.

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun? Add to this the fact that Galileo was cruelly imprisoned and forced to recant under the pains of torture. Modern science now shows that Galileo was right and the “infallible” pope was wrong.

Your use of the word infallible in regard to the Pope shows you have no understanding of the Catholic Doctrine of Papal infallibility. This is just another example that you had no understanding of Christianity which you turned your back on.

The above and below:

… when Catholic authorities used to say that the earth was flat and even forced a scientist like Galileu to accept it.

Show that you don’t understand the history of science or the facts surrounding the Galileo Affair.

Is this enough evidence of Catholic Church persecution of Galileo?

law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

No, it is not. There have been books written about the Galileo Affair and I’ve read a few. It is one of my favorite points of history.

Like I told you before Mormonism is based on anti-Catholicism and you have shown it here.

Are these scriptures enough evidence of the Apostasy.…but, the question is, are you really interested in investigating the matter?

Yes, I investigated it a lot. I’ve already spent a great deal of time with Mormons about their ‘proof’ of a Great Apostasy. But there are two parts to the Mormon fantasy:

1. There was a Great Apostasy
2. There was a “Former-Day Saint Church” that committed the Apostasy

The first part boils down to Joseph Smith inventing a bunch of beliefs and practices which are different from the Catholic Church. Joseph Smith is right and the Catholic Church is wrong so there was an apostasy. Which is no proof at all.

The second part is what I have been challenging you to prove. If you can prove the second part, the first part falls into place. But you are not able to show from history and science that there ever was a Mormon Church to restore. There never was a church that believed and practices as the Mormons do.

Joseph Smith, as a prophecy and recorded in Mormon scripture, said the Book of Mormon was a historical book about ALL the American Indians. Science has proven that to be false. Along with ALL the other unique Mormon beliefs and practices, Joseph Smith made it up. Mormonism is not a restoration of a Former-Day-Saint Church. It is a 19th century American invention. Once you free yourself from believing from faith along, and study Christian and Mormon history, and apply reason, you will realize that fact.

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

You ignored the above post. It strikes at the heart of why Mormonism is false and Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

You ignored the below post twice because you can’t prove the unique beliefs and practices of Mormonism existed before Joseph Smith.

The same guys that said the Book of Mormon was about the source of ALL the American Indians also invented:
exaltation,
polygamy,
Melchizedek Priesthood,
excommunicating Apostles,
prophets leading the church,
blood atonement, and
water baptism on behalf of the dead.

None of these have ever been Christian practices or teachings. Mormonism is an invention of Joseph Smith not a restoration.