Conversion to Mormonism?

[evanfaust]

Actually, the definition of God accepted by Catholics/Protestants is not confusing, illogical, nor does it lack common sense. The problem arises in caricatures of that doctrine, which are pretty common amongst LDS and other non-Trinitarian critics of the Trinity doctrine. Many LDS leaders and writers/apologists have actually criticized the heretical teaching of Modalism, and not the Trinity doctrine, which is always amusing.

The fact is that the Trinity doctrine matches more clearly the teachings of the Bible than the LDS teachings on God. The Trinity doctrine, in its simplest form, is that there is only one God, and there are three distinct Persons who are fully God. LDS believe many things about the Divine that are not Biblical, such as:

-the belief that the Son and Holy Ghost are literal spirit offspring of Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother
-the belief that the Father progressed to/achieved Godhood, and was therefore not always God
-the Father is married to a Heavenly Mother .

Livingwaters,

The concept of trinity, which word by the way does not exist in the bible, was an effort to keep Christianity a monotheistic religion. In order to keep in line with Judaism and Islam, Christians devised a creed to define the figure of the father, the son and the holly ghost as one God. This creed, which is accepted by majority of Christian was enacted by a group of individuals that were not apostles or prophets.

I want to make a correction on what you stated about Mormons and the Deity.
The Father and the Son have a glorified body of flesh and bones, but the Holly Ghost is a personage of spirit. We know the Son is the firstborn of the father in the spirit, but we don’t know if the Holly Ghost is offspring of God. We have no revelation about it. God has always been God. His intelligence was always a God. As far as heavenly mother…we also do not have any official doctrine about her. There are speculations and extrapolations of doctrines, but there is no official doctrine about it and we don’t teach it.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Livingwaters,

The concept of trinity, which word by the way does not exist in the bible, was an effort to keep Christianity a monotheistic religion. In order to keep in line with Judaism and Islam, Christians devised a creed to define the figure of the father, the son and the holly ghost as one God. This creed, which is accepted by majority of Christian was enacted by a group of individuals that were not apostles or prophets.

The individuals were bishops successors to the Apostles since it is impossible for someone to be one of the 12, per the criteria laid out in Acts.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Livingwaters,

The concept of trinity, which word by the way does not exist in the bible,

Why is it relevant that the word “trinity” isn’t in the Bible? Where does the Bible say that everything must be found in the Bible? Where is the word “Bible” in the Bible? I’m not sure why your brought that up.

was an effort to keep Christianity a monotheistic religion.

Christianity has always been a monotheistic religion, professing belief in one God, in continuity with Judaism. The Bible is filled with stories of God repeatedly calling His people back to worship of the one true God, and punishing them for following other deities.

In order to keep in line with Judaism and Islam, Christians devised a creed to define the figure of the father, the son and the holly ghost as one God.

Huh? You do know that Islam did not exist until hundreds of years after Christianity, Muhammad was born in 570 AD, over two hundred years after the Nicene Creed was promulgated. Are you sure you really know your Christian history?

This creed, which is accepted by majority of Christian was enacted by a group of individuals that were not apostles or prophets.

The Creed (I assume you mean the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed) was “enacted” by a Council of the Church established by Jesus Christ. Catholics and Orthodox believe that the decisions that arise from such Councils are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I want to make a correction on what you stated about Mormons and the Deity.
The Father and the Son have a glorified body of flesh and bones, but the Holly Ghost is a personage of spirit. We know the Son is the firstborn of the father in the spirit, but we don’t know if the Holly Ghost is offspring of God.

Actually, it is quite common teaching in the LDS faith that all, including Christ and the Holy Ghost, are spirit sons and daughters of the Father. Indeed, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that the Holy Ghost is a “spirit son of God the Father”.

We have no revelation about it. God has always been God. His intelligence was always a God.

Actually, many of your prophets and apostles and other leaders have taught that the Father “progressed to”/“achieved” Godhood. Indeed, this has been taught in many of your official manuals and magazines. Joseph Smith himself refuted the idea that God has always been God from all eternity.

As far as heavenly mother…we also do not have any official doctrine about her. There are speculations and extrapolations of doctrines, but there is no official doctrine about it and we don’t teach it.

Again, the LDS church has repeatedly taught that the Father is married to a Heavenly Mother. LDS leaders, up to this day, have repeatedly talked about “heavenly parents”. What is “heavenly parents” referring to? Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. It is basic LDS teaching that the Father is eternally married to His spouse, and that we are all (including Jesus Christ) spirit sons and daughters of “heavenly parents”, i.e. the Father and Mother.

 

[evanfaust]

Please provide substantiation that this is a revelation, I’ve seen nothing from any LDS leader declaring it a revelation.

Sure…here it is.

lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/2?lang=eng

 

[evanfaust]

Livingwaters,

The concept of trinity, which word by the way does not exist in the bible, was an effort to keep Christianity a monotheistic religion. In order to keep in line with Judaism, Christians devised a creed to define the figure of the father, the son and the holly ghost as one God. This creed, which is accepted by majority of Christian was enacted by a group of individuals that were not apostles or prophets.

I want to make a correction on what you stated about Mormons and the Deity.
The Father and the Son have a glorified body of flesh and bones, but the Holly Ghost is a personage of spirit. We know the Son is the firstborn of the father in the spirit, but we don’t know if the Holly Ghost is offspring of God. We have no revelation about it. God has always been God. His intelligence was always a God. As far as heavenly mother…we also do not have any official doctrine about her. There are speculations and extrapolations of doctrines, but there is no official doctrine about it and we don’t teach it.

 

[evanfaust]

Huh? You do know that Islam did not exist until hundreds of years after Christianity, Muhammad was born in 570 AD, over two hundred years after the Nicene Creed was promulgated. Are you sure you really know your Christian history?
.

You are right…It was a mistake on my part. I am aware the Islam came about 600 AD. I really meant only to say Judaism. The Nicene creed was around 325 AD.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Sure…here it is.

lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/2?lang=eng

Where is the Mormon revelation regarding the institution of your priesthood ban?

 

[Marie5890]

Marie,

I am from Brazil and lived half of my life there…that is the largest Catholic country in the world. It is very permeated in the Brazilian culture…you breathe Catholicism everywhere in the country…no way to avoid it. LOL. Most of my friends and families were all Catholics…but I do agree that most Catholics in Brazil are inactive and ignorant in their own faith. That means, they do not attend church regularly and they do not know much about the doctrines of the Catholic Church. They actually know a lot about the traditions and prayers, etc, but in terms of essence and history they know very little…actually I ended teaching many Catholics what the Catholic Church believed. Many of them acted surprised. Here in the US Catholics seem to be more educated.

I served a mission for the LDS church in Brazil and I loved to discuss theology with the fathers in every city I went…by the way, one of my companions in my mission attended Catholic Seminar and became a Mormon missionary 3 months after his conversion.

Well…I do not have any desire to take lessons on Catholicism…why would I ? I am extremely happy in the Mormon Church. I am very confident in what I believe and have no intentions of changing my beliefs. I do believe I know more than enough about the Catholic Church to reject its doctrines and positions and I feel very comfortable with that decision. If for whatever reason, someday, I decide not to follow the Mormon Church anymore…I would not join any other church. I would just keep the commandments and would be a good Christian.

As you know I have been bombarded with questions here and it stands to reason that I also have a life and don’t have time to respond them all. So, I will have to choose some questions and answer them as time allows. Don’t take my silence as ignorance…that is the wrong conclusion.

I just think it is fun to be here and see all these questions and emotions flying high. I guess I was a little bored and decided to come and make life a little more exciting…hehe

So your issue with growing up Catholic was more due to cultural in Brazil then? Some of the posts you have made make is sound like you didnt know Catholicism.

Thanks for the clarification. Your OP in this thread made it sound like you left Catholicism not so much for doctrinal reasons, but devotional reasons.

 

[TexanKnight]

Marie,

I am from Brazil and lived half of my life there…that is the largest Catholic country in the world.

Really? Latest statistics show only 65% of Brazil is Catholic. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Brazil

It is very permeated in the Brazilian culture…you breathe Catholicism everywhere in the country…no way to avoid it. LOL.

The question is not permeation, but true Catholicism.

Most of my friends and families were all Catholics…but I do agree that most Catholics in Brazil are inactive and ignorant in their own faith. That means, they do not attend church regularly and they do not know much about the doctrines of the Catholic Church. They actually know a lot about the traditions and prayers, etc, but in terms of essence and history they know very little…actually I ended teaching many Catholics what the Catholic Church believed. Many of them acted surprised. Here in the US Catholics seem to be more educated.

Agreed.

I served a mission for the LDS church in Brazil and I loved to discuss theology with the fathers in every city I went…by the way, one of my companions in my mission attended Catholic Seminar and became a Mormon missionary 3 months after his conversion.

I served mine in Honduras. Also very Catholic. There seemed to be a Catholic Church on every corner. I, too, discussed theology with the Catholic leaders. It was when I first felt the pulls of the Catholic Church

Well…I do not have any desire to take lessons on Catholicism…why would I ? I am extremely happy in the Mormon Church. I am very confident in what I believe and have no intentions of changing my beliefs. I do believe I know more than enough about the Catholic Church to reject its doctrines and positions and I feel very comfortable with that decision. If for whatever reason, someday, I decide not to follow the Mormon Church anymore…I would not join any other church. I would just keep the commandments and would be a good Christian.

I was that way, too, until I truly listened to God and was led from the LDS “Church”.

As you know I have been bombarded with questions here and it stands to reason that I also have a life and don’t have time to respond them all. So, I will have to choose some questions and answer them as time allows. Don’t take my silence as ignorance…that is the wrong conclusion.

Is it? I notice you dodge the tough topics, like the Adam/God theory, the really horrible and incorrect “revelations”, the lack of true evidence, the 9 versions (oh, you used the tired comparison to Paul but did not truly address the topic intellectually). No, I think it is the right conclusion…

I just think it is fun to be here and see all these questions and emotions flying high. I guess I was a little bored and decided to come and make life a little more exciting…hehe

I will wait for that to happen. I hope it is soon

 

[Stephen168]

I am from Brazil and lived half of my life there…that is the largest Catholic country in the world. It is very permeated in the Brazilian culture…you breathe Catholicism everywhere in the country…no way to avoid it. LOL. Most of my friends and families were all Catholics…but I do agree that most Catholics in Brazil are inactive and ignorant in their own faith. That means, they do not attend church regularly and they do not know much about the doctrines of the Catholic Church. They actually know a lot about the traditions and prayers, etc, but in terms of essence and history they know very little…actually I ended teaching many Catholics what the Catholic Church believed. Many of them acted surprised. Here in the US Catholics seem to be more educated.

I served a mission for the LDS church in Brazil and I loved to discuss theology with the fathers in every city I went…by the way, one of my companions in my mission attended Catholic Seminar and became a Mormon missionary 3 months after his conversion.

You have already shown your lack of understanding of Christian theology, and none of the above proves otherwise.

Well…I do not have any desire to take lessons on Catholicism…why would I ?

Because it would shatter your testimony. The history of Mormonism leads people out of the Mormon Church while the history of Christianity leads people to the Catholic Church.

 

[Stephen168]

One of the traditional Christian views is about the nature and definition of God, which is something that I reject. The definition of God accepted by Catholics/Protestants is very confusing, illogical and does not have common sense.

The fact that the earth rotates around the sun does not make ‘common sense’ with our experience, so ‘common sense’ has nothing to do with the truth. The Christian understanding of God is not confusing or illogical to most Christians, so your personal ability to understand it has no bearing on the truth of it.

The concept of trinity, which word by the way does not exist in the bible, was an effort to keep Christianity a monotheistic religion. In order to keep in line with Judaism and Islam, Christians devised a creed to define the figure of the father, the son and the holly ghost as one God.

The concept of the trinity is in the bible. While the Jews and the Christian were being persecuted by the Roman government, there was no motivation for the Christians to be monotheistic like the Jews instead of joining the government in their polytheism.

This creed, which is accepted by majority of Christian was enacted by a group of individuals that were not apostles or prophets.

The bible shows us how Church Councils are the highest form of authority in the Church started by Jesus Christ; from the Council at Jerusalem to Vatican II.

The Bible does not contain all the revealed truth about God.

So the word trinity doesn’t have to be in the bible.

I said that Mormons have a beautiful theology. For example, the theology that the human intelligence (light and truth) co-existed with God, that we are offspring of God in spirit and that we all lived in heaven in spiritual form before being born in human flesh, that mortality is a way for us to grow and increase our happiness when resurrected, that we will be resurrected with different degrees of glories depending on how we behaved on the earth…this is an example of the beautiful theology I talked about.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The theology you just described is not consistent with monotheism; which means it is not Christian.

The Mormon Church is an invention of Joseph Smith it is not a restoration of the Church of Christ.

 

[debbie_h]

I was raised LDS (BIC), by the time I was 21 I was an atheist. Why? Because I found the Mormon claims and teachings to be absolutely unbelievable. But, this was in the 1970’s, before African Americans could be ordained and I was the last generation to be taught that Lamanites were cursed with dark skin. Do you think I believed it? No. Neither do Mormons today. The difference is, I remember when the LDS Church taught its racist doctrine as revelation from God. Do you accept LDS revelation because it makes you feel good? I reject it because it makes me feel creepy, AND, logically/scientifically, God cursing people has nothing to do with skin color. Was I taught falsely? Did your church make a mistake? If so has it apologized for that mistake? It hasn’t. It maintains God desired a group of people to not be near to Him, as Mormons believe, just your church doesn’t know why. Well…where’s the revelation on that? Your God reveals women should be careful to not wear more than one earring in each year, but is silent on overt and institutional racism. Who is this fickle God you worship anyway?

I was clearly taught in primary (90s) & youth (00s) about the dark skin curse of the lamenites… This is in the children’s picture BOM that I received as a baptism present when I was 8

 

[NextElement]

I really don’t understand the Mormon reasoning behind the Heavenly Mother… They claim that God has a literal wife, and that they bore Jesus, correct? Wouldn’t that make her God as well? But when people asked if they could pray to Heavenly Mother, an early LDS leader told them “No, because she is obedient to the father, much like our wives on Earth should be.”

And then a Professor at BYU was fired for encouraging praying to Heavenly Mother. The whole god-family thing is weird and doesn’t make much sense to me. That’s just one of the points where Mormonism lost me.

 

[Stephen168]

I really don’t understand the Mormon reasoning behind the Heavenly Mother… They claim that God has a literal wife, and that they bore Jesus, correct? Wouldn’t that make her God as well? But when people asked if they could pray to Heavenly Mother, an early LDS leader told them “No, because she is obedient to the father, much like our wives on Earth should be.”

And then a Professor at BYU was fired for encouraging praying to Heavenly Mother. The whole god-family thing is weird and doesn’t make much sense to me. That’s just one of the points where Mormonism lost me.

I think your observation is consistent with many claims of Mormonism; they don’t stand up to reason.
They claim God is the creator but he doesn’t create.
They claim Christ is unique but he is no different to the rest of humanity.
The claim abortion is wrong but allow it.
They claim baptism makes one a member and washes away sin but withhold it from children.

Their theology is not based on reason but on making stuff up on the fly.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Where is the Mormon revelation regarding the institution of your priesthood ban?

And why did you guys need a revelation to catch up with everyone else in doing what was right?

 

[TexanKnight]

I really don’t understand the Mormon reasoning behind the Heavenly Mother… They claim that God has a literal wife, and that they bore Jesus, correct? Wouldn’t that make her God as well? But when people asked if they could pray to Heavenly Mother, an early LDS leader told them “No, because she is obedient to the father, much like our wives on Earth should be.”

And then a Professor at BYU was fired for encouraging praying to Heavenly Mother. The whole god-family thing is weird and doesn’t make much sense to me. That’s just one of the points where Mormonism lost me.

it might make more sense if you realize the lds gods were once sinful men. A man who had a wife.

or if you accept the prophet brigham young who claimed adam was our god and he brought one of his wives, eve, from another planet to create this earth…

 

[debbie_h]

I really don’t understand the Mormon reasoning behind the Heavenly Mother… They claim that God has a literal wife, and that they bore Jesus, correct? Wouldn’t that make her God as well? But when people asked if they could pray to Heavenly Mother, an early LDS leader told them “No, because she is obedient to the father, much like our wives on Earth should be.”

And then a Professor at BYU was fired for encouraging praying to Heavenly Mother. The whole god-family thing is weird and doesn’t make much sense to me. That’s just one of the points where Mormonism lost me.

So if I’m following LDS theology correctly, it would be fair to state that since Jesus is the firstborn son of God & our heavenly mother conceived through marital relations, (then Jesus presented the plan of salvation in the Great War in heaven), God then had ‘relations’ with Mary to impregnate her & to give birth to Jesus… :whacky:

 

[iepuras]

You asked why Mormon Apostles do not receive revelations…Answer: Yes, they do receive revelations; they are inspired men of God. One such revelation is the extension of the priesthood to all worthy men received in 1978. They prayed in the temple for many days and many nights and finally the revelation came and they spoke in one voice. They also receive revelations on how to assist the members, and admonish them about possible pitfalls just like Paul and Peter in their epistles to the Saints in various parts of the Church.

The Mormon apostles conveniently had a “revelation” to give blacks the priesthood when it was starting to cause public relations problems.

Colleges were starting to boycott playing sports with BYU due to the LDS church’s priesthood ban. The ban was causing a PR nightmare for the LDS church. web.archive.org/web/20121005030742/http://nn.byu.edu/story.cfm/57598

BYU and the LDS church were in danger of losing their tax exempt status because of the ban. The federal government of the US was threatening to stop providing student loans to BYU students because of the LDS church’s discrimination. Bob Jones University had lost its tax exempt status in 1976 retroactive to 1970 because of their racial discrimination against blacks.

Conveniently, the revelation came shortly before the Sao Paolo Brazil temple opened. As I’m sure you know, the priesthood ban was especially problematic in Brazil because the people of Brazil had intermarried so much that it was difficult to determine if someone had any amount of African ancestry. The priesthood ban was causing a leadership crisis in Brazil as well as a negative public image. How good would it look when the very people who sacrificed and gave money to build the temple were not allowed to enter?

It seems that most of the major “revalations” (polygamy and priesthood) came when it was politically necessary.

Below is some additional information regarding the “revelation” of 1978 published in the Deseret News January 6, 1979. This is a direct quotation from Spencer Kimball. It sounds more like negative revelation to me.

"I asked the Twelve not to go home when the time came. I said, ‘Now would you be willing to remain in the temple with us?’ And they were. I offered the final prayer and I told the Lord if it wasn’t right, if He didn’t want this change to come in the Church that I would be true to it all the rest of my life, and I’d fight the world against it if that’s what He wanted.

“We had this special prayer circle, then I knew that the time had come. I had a great deal to fight, of course, myself largely, because I had grown up with this thought that Negroes should not have the priesthood and I was prepared to go all the rest of my life till my death and fight for it and defend it as it was. But this revelation and assurance came to me so clearly that there was no question about it.”

Why is there a need to continue to expand the canon of scripture? When there are Apostles and Prophets then there is revelation and continuous communication with God. Nowhere in the bible says that the cannon are closed. The Church is alive when there is revelation and communication with God. For example, the Book of Mormon is another testament of Christ, which is also scripture. God still has many things to reveal to man.

Indeed. Why is there a need to expand the canon of scripture when Jesus and His Apostles left us with the deposit of faith and the books that became the New Testament? They left us everything we need for salvation. The LDS church has added to their canon many times. They added the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. The most recent addition to the Doctrine and Covenants was in 1978. The LDS church is the one that claims to have an open canon so I don’t even understand why you would ask this question. General Conference talks are treated as scripture. The Proclamation on the Family is also very much treated as scripture. I have often wondered when it is going to be added to the Doctrine and Covenants.

 

[LivingWaters7]

M They actually know a lot about the traditions and prayers, etc, but in terms of essence and history they know very little…actually I ended teaching many Catholics what the Catholic Church believed.

Unfortunately, and I mean this quite seriously, this is sad, because you seem to not really have an understanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches, at least as demonstrated by your posts in this thread thus far. You seem to rely on old stereotypes and caricatures, as well as common misrepresentations found in LDS-related apologetics. It may be best for you to read works by the Catholic Church and believing Catholics to really know what the Church teaches if you are attempting to present a coherent criticism of Catholic doctrines.

 

[LivingWaters7]

You are right…It was a mistake on my part. I am aware the Islam came about 600 AD. I really meant only to say Judaism. The Nicene creed was around 325 AD.

As I already mentioned, it would make sense for Christianity to be monotheistic, following in the footsteps of Judaism. Fundamental to both Christianity and Judaism is the belief in “one God”. Now, Christianity obviously has a different understanding of God than Judaism, with our belief in three distinct divine Persons, however the common understanding, stemming from revelation, is that there is one God. Christians believed in one God eternally existing as three distinct Persons long before the Council of Nicaea, as history demonstrates, in addition to this being the Biblical doctrine (LDS modalistic caricatures of it aside). What you won’t find are LDS beliefs such as:

-the Father having once been a man
-the Father progressing to/achieving Godhood
-the Father married to a Heavenly Mother (at least one)
-the Son and Holy Ghost as literal spirit offspring of the Father and Mother (as we all are)

All of these have been taught by LDS prophets, and have been taught in official LDS church manuals and magazines. They are consistent with LDS theology, in contrast to orthodox Christian theology.