I agree with LW’s advice and again add that Fr Robert Barron’s “Catholicism” is also a good resource. It gives a great lay out…
I second this, in gratitude.
In all honesty, every Mormon who has appeared here has reminded me of why I left and how glad and thankful I am. When they have no answers to the various versions, to the failed prophesies, to the Cumorah quandry, to the ever-changing doctrine and prior doctrine is proven false, I thank God for leading me out and for sending them here to confirm God led me out.
Amen.
Reading the ritual comments I almost burped up my dinner.
Correct me if I’m in error, but Mormonism does not believe in a prime mover that is they can not explain how creation started. How was the first person created that became a God? How did the universe come into being?
Livingwaters,
The only person humanizing God is the Mormon who, incidentally, believes God was once…wait for it…HUMAN.
I was asked about some of the things I did not like or accept when I became a convert. I listed a few things in one word and “rituals” was one of them. Please do not distort the meaning of what I was referring to. Sarcastic attitude will not make you pleasant person and will not make you a good Christian.Reading the ritual comments I almost burped up my dinner.
Would the ex-Mormons please share examples of LDS rituals…and what they are rooted in.
Some popcorn may settle my stomach.
Which means Mormons are polytheist and not Christian.
No, you don’t see it there. It was made up by Mormons
This progress has NEVER been taught in Christianity.
You clearly have no understanding of Christian history. Mormonism is based on anti-Catholicism “the Great Abominable Church”, I see that in your description of the successors of the Apostles.
When you read the bible you are opening a Catholic bible which contents were decided by “a group of people; no matter how bright they were.” They also decided the day you will recognize as Easter.
No, Mormons make him complicated. Mormons like to equate complicated with false. Like getting to the Moon is complicated, so it didn’t happen.
Yes, Joseph Smith rejected God as taught by Jesus Christ and invented his own; taking his followers into apostasy.
Like I said it is Mormons that believe in a god invented by Joseph Smith and his human mind. Christians believe in God as defined by Jesus Christ.
Very good questions. Alas, the LDS church doesn’t have any answers that make sense.
Yes, Joseph Smith eliminated the Judeo-Christian Creator so everyone can become God. Their gods are just other people like them. I think this has a lot to do with most ex-Mormons becoming atheists; they have no real God they worship, only random thoughts of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc. When they learn of Mormon history, the logical conclusion would be there is no God. I’m always amazed when I learn of a BIC exMormon who still believes in God.
I can understand your reasoning although I will say that Stephen never stated he saw the Father. This is what he said:
You know I haven’t been able to find this assertion. Other translations I’ve seen translate it the same way. The Italian version uses “una volta per tutte” - once and for all. Either way, it still seems to imply a finality to the faith in 1:3 whether it was “previously sent to the saints” or “already handed to the saints.” If it was already given, then that implies that it was transmitted in its entirety.
Conceding for the sake of argument that there were multiple apostasies, that doesn’t necessarily mean there was one. If there was a primitive LDS Church, there should be evidence of that Church existing. But there is nothing to indicate that a cohesive body that preaches modern LDS doctrines existed. Additionally, historically speaking, the apostasy happened way too quickly for it to be likely. Generally it takes at the very least two hundred years for legend or perversions to an idea or story to occur. We still consider accurate the biographies of Alexander the Great - though they were written four hundred years after his life!
Assuming this is true, then didn’t an apostasy also occur immediately after the death of Joseph Smith? Without a successor appointed by Joseph himself, how can we know that Brigham Young was the legitimate successor and not the founder of a new apostate Church? After all, immediately after Joseph’s death there was a schism with the Reorganized LDS setting up shop in Independence, Missouri under Joseph Smith III.
But he said the Holy Spirit would be with us to the end of the age. I don’t see this suggesting that the faith would be lost.
So you’re confirming it isn’t exclusively the Prophet that receives direct revelation from God? Where was the Prophet during the age of the apostles? Why only apostles and no prophets?
Well I think that Jude 1:3 does state that but that’s our previous discussion.
I also do not see indication that there would be continuing revelation. There was no appointed prophet after the ascension of Christ. I don’t think that means the Church is dead, because there is much about the existing faith that we don’t fully understand.Thank you. The reason I ask is because I thought I had heard somewhere that Mormons believed in Open Theism.
I wish I could agree with you here! I just don’t see the evidence of that being likely.
Aside from the “hearing” the only differences are that one passage speaks of being frozen standing and another of Paul falling down, which I don’t think they contradict because they could easily be speaking of two different moments of that same event.
Do you believe Christ was a God before he became human? Do you believe he was human and then ascended to Heaven as God?
You must be referring to Isaiah…here it goes.
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and **beside me there is no God**.Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and **none else beside me**; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:
For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and **none else beside me. **This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is **none beside me**: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who **among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?** God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? (KJV Psalms 89:5-8)
The heavens praise your wonders, O LORD, your faithfulness too, i**n the assembly of the holy ones**. For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD **among the heavenly beings** [fn. Lit "sons of god(s)]? In **the council of holy ones** God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him. O LORD God almighty, who is like you? You are mighty, O LORD, and your faithfulness surrounds you (NIV Psalms 89:5-8).
**Among all the gods there is none like unto thee**, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works (Psalms 86:8).
God has taken his place in the divine council; **in the midst of the gods **he holds judgment (ESV Psalms 82:1)
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth **among the gods.** (KJV Psalms 82:1)Jesus Christ Himself said we were gods: ““Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? John 10:34-36
You do not humanize God…Christ himself humanized God when se said…
I do not know any Mormon who believes that God the Father is Adam. Actually we know he is one of the valiant’s son of God. Actually Mormons believe that Adam is Michael described in the book of revelation, the one that fought the dragon in heaven when there was war in heaven. You will find Mormons who believe Adam already is or will become a god himself. It is also Mormon theology that Adam presides over all dispensations of time and we all know that Adam is the father of human race according to the scriptures. So, it is hard to believe that Brigham Young said what you quoted…but if he really said it the way it was recorded, then it is not accepted it, is not correct and it is not Mormon doctrine and it is not taught in the church
You have been corrected on this on more than one occasion, after being told you were misrepresenting and then continuing to say the same thing, you move to lying.
The point is that, whether or not there is “revealed scripture” about a heavenly mother or not, the concept of Heavenly Mother, even “heavenly parents”, is part of LDS theology. Many prophets, apostles, and other leaders, as well as various documents (such as the Family: A Proclamation to the World) refer to “heavenly parents”. That is what I am referring to.
Oh yes, ancient Hebrews most certainly believed in a Goddess wife of God, as well as various other deities. The ancient Hebrews were polytheistic, and the Bible repeatedly tells the story of God calling them away from such beliefs, and to worship of one God.
So are you saying that you agree with such Gnostic works that teach that the Holy Spirit is feminine?
I’m not talking about man progressing to Godhood. I didn’t bring that up at all. I’m talking about the teaching (found in various manuals and magazines, and taught by various LDS leaders throughout history) that God the Father progressed to/achieved Godhood. If He “progressed to” or “achieved” Godhood, that means that He didn’t have it until He achieved it, correct? Such an idea is found nowhere in the Bible, let alone ancient Christianity.
I think it is best if you do not ask us to swallow your caricature of orthodox Christian belief, since it is not based in actual history, nor a correct understanding of anything related to the matter. No, according to orthodox Christian doctrine, the Councils of the Church operated under the authority of the Church Christ established, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They didn’t “just use human intellect” to define God. Instead, they were guided by the Spirit, with the authority given to them by Jesus Christ, to formally define what was already Divinely revealed knowledge: that there is one God, and that He eternally exists as three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is what Catholics and Orthodox believe. They didn’t just invent something new, but were guided by God to formally define what Christians have always believed about God. History readily demonstrates that as well, by merely reading the writings of the early Church fathers.