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twopekinguys
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Incorrectly unfortunately.
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TexanKnight
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we were hoping you would answer with an answer that made sense
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LivingWaters7
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Catholic/Orthodox liturgies find continuity in the ritual practices of ancient Judaism. You can read about such things in books like:
Temple Themes in Christian Worship by Margaret Barker
The Crucified Rabbi: Judaism and the Origins of Catholic Christianity by Taylor Marshall
Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist: Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Supper by Brant Pitre
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iepuras
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Thanks LW! I’ve added two new books to my wish list. Brant Pitre’s book is already on my stack.
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Telstar
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As part of the Holy Trinity, Jesus has always been God from all eternity. He humbled Himself and took on human flesh in order to save us from our sins, because He loves us that much. He certainly did not need to “progress to godhood” as the LDS claim. That is a gross insult against Him.
So, anyone that has a different view is automatically “anti-Mormon” to you?
That phrase’s meaning is understood by considering the surrounding text and circumstances being described. It does seem to have similar meaning here because Babylon is characterized as being puffed up with pride, as if it were the only city of any importance, to the point of being equal to God. God was not amused and clearly planned to show them His disapproval of their immense pride (one of the 7 deadly sins).
The first Commandment clearly states, “I am the LORD thy God: thou shalt not have strange gods before me.” As others have already stated, this last part refers to pagan/mythical gods. Or, in some instances, it was also used as another way to reference angels, aka: “heavenly hosts”.
His first words in bold are the key that he is referring to pagan (Roman) gods, or any others that might be called ‘gods’ by the people. Paul was very clear that there was only One True God.
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Alma147
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No, Alma is well aware of the difference. There was a private publication of stenographer’s notes of discourses of LDS speakers. It was serialized in England and church leaders encouraged people to subscribe in order for the stenographers to recoup their costs. However, that was a privately published endeavor. In the 1900’s, an early fundamentalist named John Bucherite made photostatic copies of the printings, intending to sell them as bound volumes. He decided to leave the groupd he was in (later known as FLDS Church) to join another group of fundamentalists in Mexico. The project was revived a few years later and published by the FLDS Church as the 26 volume Journal of Discourses. Consequently, it was not ever published by the LDS Church.
“The Seer” on the other hand, was published by Orson Pratt using Church funds, as were several other newspapers in San Francisco, New York, St. Louis and Washington, D.C. They all were short lived publications. “The Seer” was denounced by the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 (including its author) as unreliable in a joint proclamation in 1865–specifically condemning an article on “The First Great Causes” and n article on “The Holy Spirit” as teaching doctrinal error.
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Alma147
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Interesting that you can be so certain and so wrong. I have the first set of seven volumes and several other, later versions. The first attempt at bound copies was printed in Lichtenstein in 1955 by Gastera Trust, Schaan. That is not the LDS Church. The next edition printed in 1966 was done by R. James in Liverpool, England. That’s not the LDS Church either–even if you were once a missionary or a member of the bishopri, that doesn’t grant you any special power against being fooled–for heaven’s sake, you thought the JoD was published by the Church!
You gave a quote that Adam was God from the JoD. Here’s one that says Adam and Eve are the children of “our Heavenly Father:”
Who are we? But the Gospel tells us that we are the sons and daughters of that God whom we serve. Some say, “We are the children of Adam and Eve.” So we are, and they are the children of our Heavenly Father. We are all the children of Adam and Eve, and they and we are the offspring of Him who dwells in the heavens, the highest Intelligence that dwells anywhere that we have any knowledge of. (BY JD 13:311)
Remember, Paul the apostle said God was Adam as well. Don’t get wrapped around the axle too far relying on quotes that may not be accurate.
Alma
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Alma147
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My point was that they JoD has never been published by the LDS Church. Church manuals quote lots of sources–including the JoD. However, if the Church has the same quote also appearing in the Deseret News, they’ll cite that preferentially.
Alma
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Alma147
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Who you trying to fool? Here is what he claimed: "I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of the nations—that Brigham Young has said “when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.” I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible,
He needed to have the opportunity to copy and approve it himself before equating it with doctrine. I personally know that he corrected some of his discourses and the uncorrected version appears in the JoD.
You claim to have been a knowledgeable Mormon; yet you fail to recognize a very basic premise taught consistently from Joseph Smith onward: That a prophet isn’t always a prophet but only when acting as such. “This morning I read German and visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that “a prophet is always a prophet;” but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such.—DHC 5:265.”
Alma
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taylorf
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It’s not an issue of quote mining BY. He clearly taught Adam-God, which was disavowed by subsequent apostles. His contradiction about who God is is disappointing given his position as the Lord’s one true prophet. Not surprising though that he couldn’t get his story straight…neither could Joseph. It took him at least 9 or so tries to figure out what he exactly saw that one Spring morning.
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taylorf
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So how do we determine when a prophet is acting like a prophet?
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Telstar
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Please, provide a reference (chapter & verse) where I can read that in the Bible, because my memory might be seriously slipping if that’s true. I don’t recall ever reading anything even remotely like that.
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evanfaust
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Does that mean that every time he prayed to his father he was praying to himself?
How is it possible then that the scriptures tells us that he became perfect only after his resurrection?
Or was he lying when he said this?
*It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.I am one that bear witness of myself, and the **Father **that sent me beareth witness of me. *
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evanfaust
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Do you think Christ was mistaken then?
“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? John 10:34-36
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LivingWaters7
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This is a common caricature of the Trinity doctrine (a number of LDS leaders and writers have demonstrated it), and shows a lack of understanding of the Trinity doctrine, as distinct from the Modalistic heresy. Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons; they are not each other. Therefore, no, Jesus did not pray to Himself. He prayed to the Father, who is a distinct Person from the Son. The Father sent the Son, the Son did not send Himself.
Catholic teaching is that Jesus Christ has always been fully Divine. He wasn’t less Divine at one point then became more Divine at another. He has always been God, and never ceased to be so, nor was He ever less so. The Bible does not teach anything contrary to that. Christ during His time as a man learning obedience and having experiential knowledge of suffering for our sake, perfecting Him as a true sacrifice for our sins, as well as a true example for us, does not change the fact that He has always been God.
Again, your posts continue to betray a lack of understanding of actual Catholic doctrine.
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zaffiroborant
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Where?
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zaffiroborant
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If it was produced by dissidents and ex-Mormons, by the way I’d like some substantiation on that claim I have never ever see any Mormon make this claim, why did your so called apostle have this to say this about it?
Apostle George Q. Cannon said:
BTW reading what your apostles have said in the JD I can totally understand why you want to through your previous leaders under the bus.
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Telstar
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No, Jesus is not a schizophrenic.
As I said, Jesus is one part of the Holy Trinity, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. But, They are all parts of one God. It’s a very difficult concept to understand, even for a theologian, but we believe it because that’s what Jesus taught. They were all pure Spirit before Jesus came down from Heaven to become a man on earth.
One way to help our understanding of the Trinity is to look at an egg. There is a shell, the egg white, and the yolk. They are all very different parts of the same object. The parts of the egg can’t be separated without changing what they are as a whole… an egg.
Jesus was never separated from the Father & the Holy Spirit throughout His entire life on earth, because God exists outside of time and space. But, He was (is) still fully human.
Please, provide chapter & verse where it says that in the Bible.
Accusing Jesus of lying is never a good idea. Please, don’t do that.
There, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and referred to their law which says “that the testimony of two men is true”. He was not referring to God the Father and Himself, so the “two men” is inconsequential unless taken out of context. So, here is the whole passage:
"DRV John 8 [13] *The Pharisees therefore said to him: Thou givest testimony of thyself: thy testimony is not true. [14] Jesus answered, and said to them: Although I give testimony of myself, my testimony is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go: but you know not whence I come, or whither I go. [15] You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.
[16] And if I do judge, my judgment is true: because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. [17] And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true. [18] I am one that give testimony of myself: and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me. [19] They said therefore to him: Where is thy Father? Jesus answered: Neither me do you know, nor my Father: if you did know me, perhaps you would know my Father also.*"
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RebeccaJ
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…so, what is your point? A Mormon compiled the sermons, just a Mormon you don’t agree with, but still a Mormon. You provide no evidence the sermons were modified. Again, the LDS church, Brighamite version, uses the JoD throughout its own publications.
Pratt did not believe the Adam/God doctrine, and that was his doctrinal error. Who had the error, Pratt or Young?
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RebeccaJ
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To say the LDS church published something, does not mean they did so using LDS printing presses. As a more recent example, the LDS church published a special edition of the Book of Mormon, and when you look at it, you’ll see it was published by Doubleday. It was published under the authority of the LDS church, the same as the JoD.
Paul never said God was Adam.
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