Converso Doctors

[Aelred_Minor]

I recently noticed something very interesting in Church history, and according to official forum descriptions I think this is the right place to post on it.

I was reading about St. John of Avila, who set to be declared a Doctor of the Church, and saw that he was from a Jewish converso family. That is, a Spanish family of Jewish origin that had converted to Catholicism.

I remembered that St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross were both likewise from such converso families, and noticed the pattern.

Is it just a strange coincidence that three of the most influential figures of 16th Century Catholic Spain (so known, whether fairly or not, for persecution of Jews, including conversos), two Doctors of the Church and one scheduled to be declared one, were of at least partial Jewish descent?

Does anyone know how common and influential Catholics of Jewish descent were in the Church in general at this time? Any thoughts on this apparent coincidence? Do you think it was providence? Do you think there was something about the experience of Catholics of Jewish descent in 16th Century Spain that can help explain how three such spectacular Catholic reformer-scholar-mystics emerged from their ranks?

 

[TrueLight]

I recently noticed something very interesting in Church history, and according to official forum descriptions I think this is the right place to post on it.

I was reading about St. John of Avila, who set to be declared a Doctor of the Church, and saw that he was from a Jewish converso family. That is, a Spanish family of Jewish origin that had converted to Catholicism.

I remembered that St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross were both likewise from such converso families, and noticed the pattern.

Is it just a strange coincidence that three of the most influential figures of 16th Century Catholic Spain (so known, whether fairly or not, for persecution of Jews, including conversos), two Doctors of the Church and one scheduled to be declared one, were of at least partial Jewish descent?

Does anyone know how common and influential Catholics of Jewish descent were in the Church in general at this time? Any thoughts on this apparent coincidence? Do you think it was providence? Do you think there was something about the experience of Catholics of Jewish descent in 16th Century Spain that can help explain how three such spectacular Catholic reformer-scholar-mystics emerged from their ranks?

Do you know the few times I have heard of this Saint I thought he was St John of the Cross?

 

[mercytruth]

I recently noticed something very interesting in Church history, and according to official forum descriptions I think this is the right place to post on it.

I was reading about St. John of Avila, who set to be declared a Doctor of the Church, and saw that he was from a Jewish converso family. That is, a Spanish family of Jewish origin that had converted to Catholicism.

I remembered that St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross were both likewise from such converso families, and noticed the pattern.

Is it just a strange coincidence that three of the most influential figures of 16th Century Catholic Spain (so known, whether fairly or not, for persecution of Jews, including conversos), two Doctors of the Church and one scheduled to be declared one, were of at least partial Jewish descent?

Does anyone know how common and influential Catholics of Jewish descent were in the Church in general at this time? Any thoughts on this apparent coincidence? Do you think it was providence? Do you think there was something about the experience of Catholics of Jewish descent in 16th Century Spain that can help explain how three such spectacular Catholic reformer-scholar-mystics emerged from their ranks?

St.Theresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) was also a Carmelite, and from a Jewish Orthodox family. The patron ‘father’ of the Carmelites is Elijah the prophet. Mt. Carmel is in Haifa, Israel, and is supposedly where the Carmelite order began. Some speculate that it might somehow trace its beginnings to the ‘school of prophets’ established by Elijah on Mt. Carmel. This is where the cave of Elijah is located.

As a subnote, I remember meeting Father Elias Friedman, a Carmelite at the monastery of Mt. Carmel in Haifa. I had to ask him if Michael O’Brien had ever interviewed him regarding the novel he wrote, titled “Father Elijah”.

(Michael O’Brien’s book was about a Jewish convert to the Catholic faith who became a Carmelite monk on Mt. Carmel and was commissioned by the Pope to confront the Anti-Christ.) The real Father Elias was a Jewish Catholic convert also, but he had never been interviewed by Michael O’Brien, and Michael O’Brien said he was not aware of the real Father Elias at the time of his writing of this novel.

Perhaps, these great Jewish mystics of the Carmelite order have something of the spirit of Elijah. Perhaps they are commissioned to 'turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest the Lord smite the earth with a curse".(Malachi 3:23-24)

God’s peace.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Miguel de Cervantes, author of the most famous novel in Spanish, “Don Quixote,” is also thought by many scholars to have been from a converso family. He lived in roughly the same time period as St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila.

Lot of people find lots of Muslim ideas and images in the writings of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. And Cervantes “Don Quixote” novel has several key Muslim characters.

Many scholars take the view that the Catholic spirituality in the time of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila and Miguel de Cervantes was really a mixture of Catholic sources, Jewish sources and Muslim sources. As you know, most of Spain was under Muslim rule for almost 500 years, until late in the 1400s. During much that time, the people of the three religions lived together somewhat peacefully, and they influenced each other.

Many words in the Spanish language actually are terms borrowed from Arabic.

For example, the word “Guadalupe” is said to have originally been an Arabic word. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalupe

Also, “azul,” the Spanish word for blue, is said have been an Arabic word originally. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language_influence_on_the_Spanish_language

So, if ideas and images and forms of expression from Judaism and Islam did influence St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and others of that time and place,what does that mean?

Does it mean that Judaism and Islam are valid religions? Does it mean that that they are equal in validity to the Catholic Faith? Does it mean that we should study Judaism and Islam so as to be better Catholics?

As I understand it, the Catholic Church teaches that there is much truth and value in Judaism and Islam, but that the fullness of the truth of God is found only in the Catholic Church. So, that’s what I believe.

I will say this: I’d rather have a holy and pious Jewish or Muslim believer as my boss, co-worker or neighbor than a religiously lax indifferent Catholic. Unless I am mistaken, I believe we Catholics are allowed to believe that there are true saints among the Muslims and the Jews.

 

[mercytruth]

Conversion is oftentimes a powerful leading by the Spirit of God. A spiritual journey initiated and led by the Spirit of God is oftentimes more dramatic and definitive than the journey that begins with infant baptism and a later confirmation.

Some of what St. John of the Cross says reminds me of what sincere ‘born again’ individuals speak about. (The story of ‘Amazing Grace’ being one such example).

There is also the reality that Martin Luther was preaching about justification by faith during this timeframe of St.Theresa Avila and St. John of the Cross. For St.Theresa and St. John, faith was more than ‘justification with God’ through Jesus Christ. Faith is what leads to sanctification and ultimate union with God. This can only come about through denial of self, and the carrying one’s cross for the sake of Jesus Christ into and through the dark night.

 

[Celticnovice]

I recently noticed something very interesting in Church history, and according to official forum descriptions I think this is the right place to post on it.

I was reading about St. John of Avila, who set to be declared a Doctor of the Church, and saw that he was from a Jewish converso family. That is, a Spanish family of Jewish origin that had converted to Catholicism.

I remembered that St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross were both likewise from such converso families, and noticed the pattern.

Is it just a strange coincidence that three of the most influential figures of 16th Century Catholic Spain (so known, whether fairly or not, for persecution of Jews, including conversos), two Doctors of the Church and one scheduled to be declared one, were of at least partial Jewish descent?

Does anyone know how common and influential Catholics of Jewish descent were in the Church in general at this time? Any thoughts on this apparent coincidence? Do you think it was providence? Do you think there was something about the experience of Catholics of Jewish descent in 16th Century Spain that can help explain how three such spectacular Catholic reformer-scholar-mystics emerged from their ranks?

Good post! Also significant here was the efforts of these Saints to reconnect with early Christianity…

I would be curious to read Br. JR’s take on this…

St. Teresa De Avila, pray for us

 

[Aelred_Minor]

St.Theresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) was also a Carmelite, and from a Jewish Orthodox family. The patron ‘father’ of the Carmelites is Elijah the prophet. Mt. Carmel is in Haifa, Israel, and is supposedly where the Carmelite order began. Some speculate that it might somehow trace its beginnings to the ‘school of prophets’ established by Elijah on Mt. Carmel. This is where the cave of Elijah is located.

As a subnote, I remember meeting Father Elias Friedman, a Carmelite at the monastery of Mt. Carmel in Haifa. I had to ask him if Michael O’Brien had ever interviewed him regarding the novel he wrote, titled “Father Elijah”.

(Michael O’Brien’s book was about a Jewish convert to the Catholic faith who became a Carmelite monk on Mt. Carmel and was commissioned by the Pope to confront the Anti-Christ.) The real Father Elias was a Jewish Catholic convert also, but he had never been interviewed by Michael O’Brien, and Michael O’Brien said he was not aware of the real Father Elias at the time of his writing of this novel.

Perhaps, these great Jewish mystics of the Carmelite order have something of the spirit of Elijah. Perhaps they are commissioned to 'turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest the Lord smite the earth with a curse".(Malachi 3:23-24)

God’s peace.

You may not have meant to imply it, but to avoid confusion for other people let me point out that St. John of Avila, unlike St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, was not a Carmelite.

 

[mercytruth]

You may not have meant to imply it, but to avoid confusion for other people let me point out that St. John of Avila, unlike St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, was not a Carmelite.

Thank you so much for the clarification. I was not aware that St.John of Avila and St. John of the Cross are two different individuals… God willing, St.John of Avila is next on my list of readings.

God’s peace.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

That’s two who made that mistake. I suspect I may have done so in the past and never realized it.

Maybe one of the reasons St. John of Avila is not better known despite apparently being a very influential saint is his getting confused with St. John of the Cross.

 

[Evan]

The family’s of St Teresa and St John of the Cross may have been conversos, but I believe both of them were born and raised Catholic.

What does it take to be converso or not? To how many generations, does this distinction apply?

 

[mercytruth]

The family’s of St Teresa and St John of the Cross may have been conversos, but I believe both of them were born and raised Catholic.

What does it take to be converso or not? To how many generations, does this distinction apply?

There were conversos and marranos. ‘Marrano’ was a disparaging appellation for Jewish converts, or socio-economic converts who secretly practiced some of their Judaic traditions.

There might have been some overlap regarding the keeping of certain Jewish traditions, or of scriptural theology between the two. Converso parents of zeal probably have a significant influence on the first or second generation.

I may be reading into the Jewish tradition of St. John of the Cross, but his understanding of the role of devotional images in drawing close to the incorporeal God, our Father seems to be minimalized. In fact, this whole mystical movement of being drawn into union with God the Father through faith, and the cross of Jesus Christ seems to have a Jewish zeal about it. He seems also to have a great appreciation for the OT prophets. The fact that these mystical doctors and saints of Jewish origins are drawn to the Carmelite order whose patron father is the prophet Elijah, may also be a conscious or subconsious decision derived from their Jewish heritage. These are simply my own refelections, of course.

But what does it take to be a converso? That, I can not assume to know.

God’s peace.

 

[choliks]

Can I include Bro. JR as one of the doctors? teehee.

 

[Evan]

I was watching a history of St Teresa last night and they mentioned her grandparents were conversos, ie they were Jews who converted. So the converso influence would have been from the grandparents.

Of course many things in my family come from 3 4 5 generations ago. So I can see where the Jewish influence would be especially strong when the conversos proper were still living.