Convert from Anglicanism

[dbonneville]

I was baptized and confirmed as an RC. When I went to college, I met some zealous Protestants that made some good points, so I thought at the time, and so I got rebaptized in a Baptist church. My wife was baptized as and RC, but also as a Baptist, and never made first communion.

I was involved in church planting in a non-denominational church for years. I have tried to start groups myself, but always, always was constricted by conscience about my authority to do so. I even went and got a Bible degree.

I decided against starting something, and found a conservative Anglican church under Anglican Mission in the Americas (Rwanda). The priest is a graduate of Nashota and is very Anglo-Catholic.

I was on a track for ordination to the transitional diaconate which led me full circle back to Rome, much to everyones dismay and astonishment, and perplexity. Now I realize that the road to Canterbury leads straight to Rome. I’ve been studying all the “problems” for weeks, and finding that there really are none that cause me any problem whatsoever. I thought I wanted “catholic” but it was really a disguise, I guess, for desiring the Catholic way.

So I’m saying I want to take the swim…

But can someone help me out with a few questions:

• My 3 kids were baptized on Easter this year. Is the baptism valid?
• My 3 kids all received First Communion this year. Is that valid?
• I was “recieved” into the Anglican Communion because I was confirmed RC - what do I do with that?
• We were married in a Baptist Church, as committed (at that time) Baptists. Is our marriage valid?
• My wife was confirmed Anglican. Is her confirmation valid?
• My wife received First Communion as an Anglican. Is that valid?
• What is the official position on baptized believers who are not RC? If the baptism is triune, are they “kind of” saved - is that grace effective?

Maybe theres 12 new threads here, but there doesn’t have to be. I’m looking for bullet list answers, straight shooting, no nonsense. I’ve read just today on this forum that the RC considers triune baptisms to be valid. But are non-RC baptized people saved or are they just going to have a really hard time, and God will figure it out at the end?

I’m just about ready to chuck it all. Why have the generic brand when you can have the name brand? Besides, I want a Pope. The CofE is in shambles, and GAFCON will just become another Protestant Denomination thanks to no leadership in the CofE, and evil in high places in TEC.

I’m zealous for ministry, and this close to going back to the RCC, and am willing, and ready, to lay down my left brain and just obey the teachings of the Church and stop trying to come to all my own conclusions. There is, shall I put it, no end to what one can read, all day and night every day for years. What will the Church do with (“to”) me?

We called a local parish, but haven’t heard yet from the priest (we called yesterday) What is going to happen? What does the future hold for someone like me in the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[dbonneville]

Oh, one more thing: the stereotype of the typical American RC is “pray, pay, and obey” and don’t fellowship or have rich community. I’m by far most concerned about this. At the least, the non-RC “churches” get together, care for one another, and spend time with each other. They even try to study the Bible together, in their own awkward way. Where will I find this in the RC? I have apprehensions about icy communities and people who just fall into a liturgy rut and stay there their whole life.

In my home growing up, we never one time read the Bible as a family, or really individually, except if the TV was off during Lent. We prayed the Rosary one time during Lent and it was so odd. We never prayed together, except at meals with the quick “Thank you Lord for these thy gifts…”

I might add that I went to RC schools for 11 of 12 years, and was an altar boy for several years. My mother has been the organist for 30 years in the RC, and has never missed Mass her whole life, except if she was hospitalized. Yet, what drew me away was the apparent lack of believing or transforming, or even mildly detectable, sense of the presence of God in our home. All the kids divorced (6 children) except me, married pushing 20 years now. 2 have never married, and they are in the old-maid category of life now. My life outside the RC has born some fruit of the Holy Spirit, but it has always felt truncated.

So there is more info for you. Help me out!

 

[bpbasilphx]

• My 3 kids were baptized on Easter this year. Is the baptism valid?

**If water was applied and the three Persons of the Trinity was invoked, it was valid.
**

• My 3 kids all received First Communion this year. Is that valid?

**Was it in the Anglican Church? If so, no, because Anglicans are not considered by Rome to have a valid ministry, hence, the Eucharist cannot be confected. If it was in the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church, yes.
**

• I was “recieved” into the Anglican Communion because I was confirmed RC - what do I do with that?

**Nothing. **

• We were married in a Baptist Church, as committed (at that time) Baptists. Is our marriage valid?

Ask your pastor to straighten this one out. Since you and your wife were both baptized as Roman Catholic, I think you are “bound to form”, but I’m also sure it will be a simple process.

• My wife was confirmed Anglican. Is her confirmation valid?
• My wife received First Communion as an Anglican. Is that valid?

**No to both, because Rome does not consider the Apostolic succession as existing in Anglican orders.
**

• What is the official position on baptized believers who are not RC? If the baptism is triune, are they “kind of” saved - is that grace effective?

Roman Catholics and Orthodox (or for that matter, Anglo-Catholics) do not speak of “being saved” in the same way Evangelical Protestants do. No one is really “saved” until he reaches heaven.

 

[dbonneville]

What does “bound to form” mean, and what is the pragmatic application of being “bound to form”?

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

I would ask in the “Ask an Apologist” section, about the validity of episcopal sacraments.

 

[whomper]

Why does one “need a Pope”?

One of the biggest problems that any of us Catholic-types have is that we are taught to believe that our form of catholicism is the only approved form, and that the others are just going to hell because they don’t believe as we do. This, generally speaking, of course, is in error.

Man is told to not judge. It’s God’s place, not Man’s, to decide who is going to Gehana (we’re all going to Hell, just as Christ+ did, to await our judgement), so we can just worry about ourselves.

Man has imposed so many little rules and judgements that the rest of Mankind worries too much! There is sufficient teaching in the Bible, including Christ’s+ own words, that help us make our decisions. But when we start perverting the teachings to conform to our own desires, we run the risk of causing our own judgemental delays. And we can always make the right decision in the end, just before we die, and who’s going to know but us, our confessor (if we did it right), and our God?

The main difference between the three branches of Catholicism is the validity of the historic claims of the Bishop of Rome. Many students of the Bible do not take the quotation about Peter and the Rock to indicate some specific position of Peter; but more to the point that the rock is the foundation of the church, and that foundation is knowing that Jesus Christ+ is our Lord and the Incarnation of God.

Some say that Baptists believe that they are the only ones going to Heaven. I think everyone is going to be surprised when they get to wherever they’re going, to see so many people they recognize and a lot they don’t!

 

[BlestOne]

What does “bound to form” mean, and what is the pragmatic application of being “bound to form”?

Catholics (baptized in the Catholic Church) are bound to form in marriage…means that you have to be married in the Church among other things… reason is that we believe it to be a sacrament and so believe in the sanctifying graces of that sacrament… Most Protestant Churches do not believe in the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

BlestOne, they don’t believe in sacraments as such, but as far as I know, all mainstream protestants believe in marriage per se as a divine institution.

 

[LilyM]

Why does one “need a Pope”?

One of the biggest problems that any of us Catholic-types have is that we are taught to believe that our form of catholicism is the only approved form, and that the others are just going to hell because they don’t believe as we do. This, generally speaking, of course, is in error.

Man is told to not judge. It’s God’s place, not Man’s, to decide who is going to Gehana (we’re all going to Hell, just as Christ+ did, to await our judgement), so we can just worry about ourselves.

Man has imposed so many little rules and judgements that the rest of Mankind worries too much! There is sufficient teaching in the Bible, including Christ’s+ own words, that help us make our decisions. But when we start perverting the teachings to conform to our own desires, we run the risk of causing our own judgemental delays. And we can always make the right decision in the end, just before we die, and who’s going to know but us, our confessor (if we did it right), and our God?

The main difference between the three branches of Catholicism is the validity of the historic claims of the Bishop of Rome. Many students of the Bible do not take the quotation about Peter and the Rock to indicate some specific position of Peter; but more to the point that the rock is the foundation of the church, and that foundation is knowing that Jesus Christ+ is our Lord and the Incarnation of God.

Some say that Baptists believe that they are the only ones going to Heaven. I think everyone is going to be surprised when they get to wherever they’re going, to see so many people they recognize and a lot they don’t!

We Roman Catholics don’t believe that being a formal member of the Catholic church is necessary for salvation, although we think that the most helps to salvation (in the form of the sacraments, clear Christ-ordained authority and so on) and the fullness of truth (and remember Christ said He would lead us into ALL truth, so fulness of truth is important for His sake who is Truth incarnate) are in the Catholic Church.

But we Catholics DO believe, our hierarchical authority being given by Christ the power to ‘bind and loose’, that we are bound by the disciplines that our hierarchy imposes upon us. Why on earth was the power to bind and loose given if not for exactly such a purpose? What earthly use is it otherwise?

 

[whomper]

that we are bound by the disciplines that our hierarchy imposes upon us. Why on earth was the power to bind and loose given if not for exactly such a purpose? What earthly use is it otherwise?

The problem comes when he who possesses the power, presumably via apostolic succession, chooses to misuse it ways that were not intended by God. Man always has had the ability to misuse his power, and when he misuses power granted by God, the uninitiated may not understand the misuse.

“Power corrupts”. Etc.

That’s why blindly following another human can be disasterous. Faith is required at the basic level of our religion. Education is required at the higher levels.

 

[RC_Matt]

What does “bound to form” mean, and what is the pragmatic application of being “bound to form”?

Essentially it means that your marriage will need to be blessed by a Priest (convalidated). It’s not a big deal, though some people choose to make an event of it; e.g., have a party afterwards, etc.

 

[jmcrae]

Welcome!!

What does “bound to form” mean, and what is the pragmatic application of being “bound to form”?

The practical upshot of this is that you will, before you return to the Sacraments (most of them - it will be after going to Confession, though), you two be the stars of a ten-minute ceremony with (at least) two friends present that will be euphemistically referred to as a “blessing of marriage.” (This wording is used so as not to scare the neighbors, or your mother-in-law. By the time it actually happens, you and your wife will be well aware of what is going on.)

This “blessing of marriage” is not optional, in your case. So, look forward to it with joy!!

The reasons for it will become more clear as you proceed back into the Church.

Your wife will want to participate in some form of RCIA process so that she can be Confirmed and receive First Holy Communion (she will most likely do this either right before or right after the marriage blessing ceremony) and, depending on their ages, your children will most likely also be invited to participate in a children’s edition of the same process, with pastoral adaptations depending on their ages.

 

[Greg27]

“My 3 kids were baptized on Easter this year. Is the baptism valid?”

So long as the baptism was done with the proper form and intent (using water poured on the head three times or by immersion, using the formula 'I baptise you, N, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) the answer is yes. Generally I think the CC recognises Anglican baptisms as valid.

• "My 3 kids all received First Communion this year. Is that valid?’

I think the church holds that the Anglican eucharist is not a true sacrament, due to an issue with holy orders. Anglican ministers do not have the proper sacrament of holy orders because of the schism with Rome in the time of Henry the VIII.

• "I was “recieved” into the Anglican Communion because I was confirmed RC - what do I do with that?’

The original sacrament of confirmation would have been validly applied when you were Catholic. For the same reason as the issue with the eucharist though, I don’t think an Anglican sacrament of confirmation would be seen as effective.

• “We were married in a Baptist Church, as committed (at that time) Baptists. Is our marriage valid?”

Strictly speaking, in canon law your marriage may not be free of impediments, the one here being you married without the marriage being officiated by a Catholic priest, and also not receiving a dispensation to marry a non-Catholic (disparity of cult). Even so, if you rejoined the CC and talked to a priest, it is likely your original marriage may be seen as valid and the priest will discuss ways to properly deal with the issues that prevent it from being a sacramental marriage in the Catholic sense. In my short time with the church, the pastoral situation of this kind seemed quite common and the occasion (though not one I was ever personally involved in) is one done with a degree of care, compassion and joy by the priest and the couple, as marriage is regarded very highly and seriously in the church. And, for all the seriousness, marriage is also seen generally as a wonderful state of life to be in.

• “My wife was confirmed Anglican. Is her confirmation valid?”

See above. Probably not, due to the issue with holy orders.

• "My wife received First Communion as an Anglican. Is that valid?’

Not in the sense the Eucharist she received was a true and complete sacrament as it is in the CC. Even so, it doesn’t mean there was no grace in the act.

• “What is the official position on baptized believers who are not RC? If the baptism is triune, are they “kind of” saved - is that grace effective?”

Christians in non-Catholic communities who have been validly baptised are seen as being Christian brothers and sisters of Catholics who are in imperfect union with the true Church, which is the CC. For technical reasons Protestant churches are not seen as true churches but are called ‘ecclesial communities’, mainly because with the Reformation schisms, certain elements which are seen by official Catholic ecclesiology as essential for a church to be a true church were discarded. One of the issues with the Anglican church is that in the eyes of the Catholic church, Anglican holy orders are invalid because of the schism with Rome during the time of Henry the VIII, and this is why Anglican sacraments (apart from baptism) are generally seen to also be invalid. Even so, if you have been baptised properly in another denomination, you can join the CC following a period of catechesis (usually by RCIA) and when you are received into the CC, you are given the sacraments of confirmation and eucharist, or anyone else joining with you (such as your family), provided of course the norms and rules and laws of the CC regarding the sacraments are properly observed.

 

[whomper]

[Protestants] don’t believe in sacraments as such, but as far as I know, all mainstream protestants believe in marriage per se as a divine institution.

I think there should be a distinction here between marriage as a sacrament and marriage as a civil requirement. This is one reason that marriages and children are recognized 'most everywhere but not necessarily in the sacramental sense.

Ministers, Justices of the Peace, and other civil functionaries have the “power” to marry, which is why the statement is usually added, “by the power vested in my by the State of suchandsuch” or “by the power vested in me”, “I pronounce you man and wife”.

This is one of the reasons we must be careful when we say that something is done by the power of something else… In this case, the minister, etc., isn’t “doing” it, the state “did” it. The minister was just the tool.

It’s when a minister declares that “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder” that divine interest is expressed.

Then, of course, when there’s trouble, communities often want to address whether a REAL marriage existed or not, in the beginning. That brings into focus the spiritual or divine nature of the union.

 

[whomper]

our hierarchical authority being given by Christ the power to ‘bind and loose’, that we are bound by the disciplines that our hierarchy imposes upon us. Why on earth was the power to bind and loose given if not for exactly such a purpose?

The “power” in question was given to the Apostles to carry on Christ’s+ work. It wasn’t given to any other person. As such, Apostolic Succession was instituted. All ministers who can trace their ordinations back to Christ+ are so endowed, until such time as they are absolved or relieved of that power.

How else can Christ+ institute any blessing or absolve any sin except through this power given to Man? One other way is through private Holy Spiritual application, but who’s gonna know? “By their works ye shall know them.” But then, personal assumption of the power to bind, or any other personal assumptions (revelations?) are some of the bases for the other branches of spiritual belief.

It’s when Man decides to expand on the explanations given in scripture that more questions and differences of opinion arise.

In other arenas, I would’ve thought that Pandora was some sort of early saint… she certainly has left her mark, but on the right hand…

Sigh.

 

[Contarini]

BlestOne, they don’t believe in sacraments as such

That is completely false. “Mainstream” Protestants do indeed believe in sacraments–two of them. Marriage is not traditionally considered a sacrament. We Anglicans fudge, as usual–we confess two sacraments strictly speaking, but in the Episcopal Church’s catechism the others are also accepted as sacraments in a broader sense.

Edwin

 

[HappyRevert]

Oh, one more thing: the stereotype of the typical American RC is “pray, pay, and obey” and don’t fellowship or have rich community. I’m by far most concerned about this. At the least, the non-RC “churches” get together, care for one another, and spend time with each other. They even try to study the Bible together, in their own awkward way. Where will I find this in the RC? I have apprehensions about icy communities and people who just fall into a liturgy rut and stay there their whole life.

In my home growing up, we never one time read the Bible as a family, or really individually, except if the TV was off during Lent. We prayed the Rosary one time during Lent and it was so odd. We never prayed together, except at meals with the quick “Thank you Lord for these thy gifts…”

I might add that I went to RC schools for 11 of 12 years, and was an altar boy for several years. My mother has been the organist for 30 years in the RC, and has never missed Mass her whole life, except if she was hospitalized. Yet, what drew me away was the apparent lack of believing or transforming, or even mildly detectable, sense of the presence of God in our home. All the kids divorced (6 children) except me, married pushing 20 years now. 2 have never married, and they are in the old-maid category of life now. My life outside the RC has born some fruit of the Holy Spirit, but it has always felt truncated.

So there is more info for you. Help me out!

First, Welcome Home!!! I too fell away from the faith for several years because of misunderstandings about our beliefs so definitely Welcome Home!

Catholics absolutely have a very rich community, but sometimes depending on your Parish, you have to search for it. I have been in a Bible study for 7 years and am still going strong (you can never learn enough ) You can check out your local parish and you may even be lucky enough to have several close to you. There are some that are more traditional in their worship and some more charismatic in their approach, but you will find out where you and your family best fit. If you can find a small group in which to participate, you will find all the support and community that you will need.

I also believe that since you are coming back as a fully participating adult, you will find the Eucharist a true miracle. If your parish has Eucharistic adoration, find the time to go as often as possible and your prayer life will be transformed. The Holy Spirit works in different people in different ways, but my experience was so profound and utterly life changing, I now understand what people say when they say “born again”, and it is all to the miracle of our Eucharist. If you pray in front of the Eucharist, the Lord will hear and answer you, and give you what you need.

You didn’t specify your age, but most of my family has also fallen away from our beautiful church, so I’ll remember your family in my prayers.