Do realize that this is a statement of Diesm, not really anything similar to creationism or what luv4mary is espousing. Besides, this hardly says anything relevent to my point. Luv4mary believes in god because she feels the variety in nature is unexplained. We have a good explination for the variety in nature, therefore she should no longer believe in god.
There is a ‘Why?’ beyond the mechanical explanation of such. It sounds like luv4mary already understood the basics of evolution - it’s not like this is news.
If that’s the topic, then it’s in the wrong forum. We’re in apologetics.
We have a pretty good idea as to the reason why humanity is here, we just don’t have any reason to believe that there is some diety who needed us to be here. The question is circular. Need is a noun that requires an observer. I need a hamburger. I need to take a break. I need to go to the bathroom. She needs to come her hair. Our country needs different international policies. Does the universe NEED anything? Well, the universe isn’t a person so the question just doesn’t make any sense. By asking that question, you are unjustly personifying the universe, and then it is no wonder that the question leads to believing in some grand intelligence behind the universe. I don’t shurg my shoulders at the question “Is humanity necessary?” any more then I’d shrug my shoulders to “Is a hotdog necessary?”. Neccesary to whom?
No, we actually don’t. We know part of the mechanism to describe the process - evolution, cosmology, etc. We understand part of the ‘how’. We don’t know the ‘Why?’ of the existence of anything - or at least, the question is not one that science has satisfies, or likely could satisfy. All I was doing was illustrating what kind of question theism answers, or at least attempts to answer.
I think it’s clear you don’t ‘get’ the point being made, or at least don’t want to. Whatever the case, when questions about the purpose of the universe, of humanity, etc are responded with “It doesn’t need a purpose, you’re projecting human features onto the universe, the question is meaningless”, you are… shrugging your shoulders. I see a good question there - you see no question at all.
Circular reasoning, indeed.
Then you don’t understand what the word “why” means. Why is the sky blue? Why does water go downhill? Why is humanity here? All of these questions are answered the same way, by describing the mechanisms. The only time the question “why” demands the description of purpose rather then function is in a social context, again, you are doing what is know as a “complex question” falacy. You are assuming the answer you want in the question you ask. You are asking a question that assumes an intelligent designer, and then marvel that the question cannot be answered without an intelligent designer.
Well, let me repeat your point, and tell me if something is wrong.
so “pointing out logical fallacies” == “shrugging your shoulders”
What exactly was cingular?
It’s entirely possible to ask ‘Why?’ and then reason - as you have - ‘Why not?’ The question itself doesn’t assume an intelligent designer - a meaningful answer will typically be friendly to such a possibility, sure. But the question itself doesn’t require to start with an assumption of meaning or lack of meaning.
The problem comes in here. To me, the answer is not ‘no purpose’. If the answer is not no purpose, then - that’s more on target.
You say it’s circular logic to assume that the universe has a purpose, then ask ‘Why?’ But it’s apparently not circular to assume that the universe does not have a purpose and then ask ‘Why?’ Shrugging your shoulders means that the question is meaningless to you. Beyond conception by nature of your assumptions. Nothing more.
Very perceptive… I pointed out that exact trend here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=110906
. So if my thoughts ramble a bit, just be patient with me.
Having never read the Bible, it all seemed very cold and dry to me but I kept reading. It was when I got to the part of our Blessed Mother that God “spoke” to my heart again. I started Bawling like a baby, huge unexplained tears. I simply Fell In Love with this beautiful Lady and wanted to know more. In my search to find out more about her, I learned more about her Son. Just like at the Wedding at Cana, she lead me straight to her Son:thumbsup: .
That is not how I have answered the question. Please respond to what I said. Do not ignore the bulk of my post and continue to put words in my mouth. As I pointed out last time, you fail to address my arguement and instead characterize the things I say as “shruging my shoulders” or answering “why not?” The irony is that you would accuse me of being unwilling to listen.
That is what I said. “Why” can be answered mechanically, which breaks down your logic.
A “meaningful” answer is one involving god. Again, circular logic. Or you seem to wish to backpeddle to “typically be friendly to” which I don’t know how you could support your conclusions from such a stance.
so
When your conclusion is “the universe has a purpose” that is most definately circular logic.
I make no such assumptions. If you find any evidence that the question “why?” can be answered with “god” I’d love to see it, but the question itself isn’t proof.
The question of purpose is meaningless unless there is a god, so using the question in the logic to establish the existence of a god is circular.
I can conceive of a god, I just have no reason to believe in a god.
You were the one accusing me of intentionally missing the point, and I never said it was ridiculous to wonder about the existence of humanity. I said concluding that god exists for no other reason then that the question can be asked, is ridiculous.
A very belated welcome to the Church!There are many wonderful posts on Protestants converting to the true faith,so I thought I would start my First thread on Atheists converting.
My conversion was so fast and head spinning I almost “Lost It”
That was the easy part,now that I knew in my brain that God existed, where in the world was I suppose to “Find” Him and learn more about Him. And that is when I went on my search.
I Googled and found a TON
The last faith I read about, (yep you guessed it, Catholic) really caught my attention. I praise God for leading me to the faithfull sites and not the hatefilled Jack Chick type sites. Long story short,the more I studied the more I realized that THIS is the True Church established by Jesus Chirst Himself.
That was 3 years ago. Today I am a Sacrastin and Altar Server and Youth Minister and have worked with my DRE in starting a Bible Study program at our parish.
I know I know…“You Converts”
I know this is the “Readers Digest” version of my conversion story but its enough to give you a very brief insight into my conversion and I am very interested in knowing if there are others like me who were once Atheists who found our Lord.
God’s Blessings to you all
Deism is almost identical to athiesm. We’re talking about like, the difference between baptists and lutherans. Deists believe that god is dead or no longer interacts with the world.
I never said that it did.
…or maybe it is you who is prejudiced? Given that you level criticisms against atheists by characterizing them as having beliefs they obviously don’t have.
Certainly, I let you go and reread what I said because I’m getting awfully fatigued by repeating myself all the time.
The tone of this thread has sank into anger and I am saddened by that. I only wanted to share some of my story of how God never gave up on me and brought me home to HIS Church.
First, let me just say that this was an awesome post. While I’ve never been atheist myself, I have often wondered how and why atheists think the way they do. What, exactly, makes a person become an atheist? It definitely seems that even atheism is a conviction which one must stick by through hell or highwater (to use that expression sparinglyMy conversion was so fast and head spinning I almost “Lost It”
), where agnosticism and nontheism are far more apathetic, it seems. Of course, that’s not why I’m posting…Could you define symmetry? To the contrary, I think nature is not symmetrical. For example, if there were an equal amount of matter and antimatter in the universe, we would not be here to think about it. Also life is asymmetrical; proteins are left-handed, sugars are right handed. I’ll leave it up to you guys to figure what that means…
