Convert of 13 yr. learns more than i really wanted to

[lindalout49]

I had been thinking seriously over the past three years beliefs of the Catholic church that i just can’t make myself agree with no matter how hard i try to reason them out. it seems coming here only enforces more beliefs of the Church that i was not aware of. i probably should have read the Catecism myself and not depended on just RCIA classes to educate me. The only reason i have not left in the past three years is that it hurts in my soul to know that no other church that i know of honors Mother Mary like the Catholic Church.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

What issues, specifically? And what leads you to think that the Catholic Church is wrong and your own view is right? Is it a case of dueling Biblical interpretations, or a gut feeling, or something else? Finally, are these issues doctrines or just disciplines? That is, are they things which make up the *belief system *of Catholicism, or just prudential practices?

As an example: it is part of the Catholic belief system that women cannot become priests/priestesses. It’s only a matter of prudential practice that the Roman Rite generally restricts ordination to unmarried celibates. As a general issue, there’s much more flexibility on disciplines: you can pretty freely say, “that’s perhaps not the way I would have done it,” and leave it at that, in a way you can’t do with dogmatic issues.

Sorry if this is vague an unhelpful, I’m just trying to get a feel for what you’re needing. Major kudos for loving Our Mother.

 

[Windmill]

What do you have difficulties with? You seem to want to discuss this since you’ve started a thread. I’d be happy to help.

 

[Langdell]

I had been thinking seriously over the past three years beliefs of the Catholic church that i just can’t make myself agree with no matter how hard i try to reason them out. it seems coming here only enforces more beliefs of the Church that i was not aware of. i probably should have read the Catecism myself and not depended on just RCIA classes to educate me. The only reason i have not left in the past three years is that it hurts in my soul to know that no other church that i know of honors Mother Mary like the Catholic Church.

Please try to remember that disagreeing doesn’t mean you have to leave. I actually think that most Catholics have trouble reconciling themselves to this or that bunch of Church teachings. You can still attend mass and benefit from the liturgy and His presence, even if you’re unable to take communion.
.

 

[lindalout49]

I do not believe in purgatory. I told the Sister this when i finished my RCIA classes, she said i did not have to believe in purgatory to join the Church.
I do not think that people who are divorced should be held back from taking the Eucurist.
Missing Mass and you have to go to confession, that somehow seems a little strict.
I love to enter the Church like no other though, all is quiet, because people are praying. not like other churches where everyone is visiting and deciding where they are going to eat afterwards or what they will fix for lunch.
Then yesterday on here someone said that you had to be Catholic to get to heaven. I totally disagree with that one. I came to know the Lord in 1989, after 14 yr. of attending a protestant church, i never actually knew the Lord. but during an alter call at a Christian concert i felt the strong need to turn my life totally over to the Lord. I went forward and repeated the sinners prayer and my life was instantly transformed. I received an instant peace that I never ever knew existed. It was like I was given new eyes, i saw the whole world and everyone in it differently than i ever had. a whole new world was opened up to me.I was 34 yr old and no i was not a drug user at the time or have i ever been.lol
I knew that night on march 5, 1989 that i truly belonged to the Lord and i did not have to worry whom i had to please as long as i was pleasing to Him. I knew He would be there by my side for the long haul, good or bad.
I took real offense yesterday when several Catholics said protestants could not get to heaven. at the time, i was saved, i actually was not even a protestant or Catholic. i was just a interested person who wanted to know the Lord in a personal way. I never dreamed knowing the Lord would change a persons life so drastically.
I have some other wonderful experiences of the Lord over the years but too lengthy to post at this time.

 

[CLMCatholic]

…i probably should have read the Catecism myself and not depended on just RCIA classes to educate me. The only reason i have not left in the past three years is that it hurts in my soul to know that no other church that i know of honors Mother Mary like the Catholic Church.

We will pray for you to attain peace in your search for the Truth.

As for me, I was born and raised Catholic and did not question it for most of the decades of my life. I guess you could have called me a small “c” catholic. I went to church and did not break (most of) the rules. And if the Church said it was so, then I said it was so too. But I did not know why. It wasn’t until this last decade of my life that I started finding out the reasons why the Church said it was so for various things…and the joy and power in knowing why and where these Truths come from has been amazing!! So I encourage you to not ‘‘merely’’ rely on the Catechism. It will certainly tell you “what” the beliefs are. But do a little extra research and find out “why” those beliefs are in place. There is a LOT of intelligence, spirituality and integrity behind the why for what the Catechism teaches!!

Perhaps you could start out with some “light” reading. Scott Hahn’s “Rome Sweet Home”. comes to mind. It helps to read about someone else who had struggles - who then went on to do some MAJOR background studying to come to the realization of why the Church teaches so many things as being just so. He does all the research. You get to read the “Catholics For Dummies” easy-reading synopsis Hopefully it can be a place to start to help you reconcile with whatever issues you are beginning to have problems with.

In the meantime, you will be in my prayers. I reiterate the post above - kudos for understanding and appreciating the honour due to the Blessed Mother. Ask for her help in your search and in your struggles.

God Bless,
CLM
<><

 

[lindalout49]

I bought a copy of Catholics for Dummies recently. i also bought a book recently that just made me mad the more i read it. i can not remember the name of it right now, i send it to a friend who is a nun to read it. it was authored by one of the guys that has something to do with this site. keaton i think was his name.

 

[jpjd]

Linda,

Many people, both cradle Catholics and converts to the faith, have difficulties with some or another of Catholic teachings. But you shouldn’t let that drive you away from Catholicism. Just keep learning more about the faith, and try to get at why the Church teaches what it does. Remember, all Church teaching ultimately comes from Christ Himself.

I offer you this quote from the great doctor of the Church, St. Augustine, which might help you:

“Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.”

– St. Augustine.

 

[Windmill]

I’ve read this post and a number of your other posts, and I see a common thread. You are seeking an absolute certainty of your salvation as the source of peace. The Lord never said that someone has this absolute assurance. What we are guaranteed is the moral assurance that God will give us the grace we need to get to Heaven. However, He respects our free will and will not force us to cooperate with that grace. That is not something that should lead us to say, “Oh well then, I will probably NOT get to Heaven.” It should give us confidence that our loving Father will never desert us and be there when we turn to Him.

There is always that struggle between our human nature and our call to holiness, and this struggle is central to the spiritual life. God loves us as we are, but he loves us too much to let us stay that way. He wants us to grow up spiritually (and this is a lifelong process). We rejoice in the grace of God when we overcome faults, and we turn to God for forgiveness when we fall. It’s analogous to running a footrace and, if you fall in the dirt, you don’t just wallow in the muck, but rather, you get up and keep running. God helps you with every step, and you could not move were it not for his grace, but to simply sit down and cry is not an option. To simply sit down and say, “God will get me to the finish line” is equally silly. His help is free, but not cheap. It cost the life of His Son, but there is nothing you can do to earn His presence in your life.

He has given you the Church as a sure guide for your salvation. Your personal opinions are really just that: fallible opinions. You would agree that you are capable of deluding yourself, and that the source of truth lies outside your own abilities to conjure up. When it comes to our salvation (the most important thing to each of us), God wants us to have complete surety that we are on the right track and that we can know what is expected of us in matters of faith, morality, and worship. He has given you and I that guide: the Catholic Church founded on the Rock of St. Peter that has endured from Apostolic times and which Christ himself gave the personal guarantee against the Gates of Hell. THAT’S ROCK SOLID. That gives us hope. It gives us peace because we now know that it is not up to us to determine what is truth and what is false. We don’t have to guess at what is moral or immoral. We have a sure guide: the Magisterium. And God will not let that teaching authority be led into error.

 

[Sunflower15]

I do not believe in purgatory. I told the Sister this when i finished my RCIA classes, she said i did not have to believe in purgatory to join the Church.
I do not think that people who are divorced should be held back from taking the Eucurist.
Missing Mass and you have to go to confession, that somehow seems a little strict.
I love to enter the Church like no other though, all is quiet, because people are praying. not like other churches where everyone is visiting and deciding where they are going to eat afterwards or what they will fix for lunch.
Then yesterday on here someone said that you had to be Catholic to get to heaven. I totally disagree with that one. I came to know the Lord in 1989, after 14 yr. of attending a protestant church, i never actually knew the Lord. but during an alter call at a Christian concert i felt the strong need to turn my life totally over to the Lord. I went forward and repeated the sinners prayer and my life was instantly transformed. I received an instant peace that I never ever knew existed. It was like I was given new eyes, i saw the whole world and everyone in it differently than i ever had. a whole new world was opened up to me.I was 34 yr old and no i was not a drug user at the time or have i ever been.lol
I knew that night on march 5, 1989 that i truly belonged to the Lord and i did not have to worry whom i had to please as long as i was pleasing to Him. I knew He would be there by my side for the long haul, good or bad.
I took real offense yesterday when several Catholics said protestants could not get to heaven. at the time, i was saved, i actually was not even a protestant or Catholic. i was just a interested person who wanted to know the Lord in a personal way. I never dreamed knowing the Lord would change a persons life so drastically.
I have some other wonderful experiences of the Lord over the years but too lengthy to post at this time.

It seems to me that you are good so far…except with the part on missing Mass. Yes, you do have to go to Confession, but it seems that you like going to Mass, if not, find a different church…but Mass is pretty much Mass anywhere!

Purgatory is Heaven, so if you don’t want to think of that stepping stone…don’t. It actually makes me feel better, but you can look at it your way. Just don’t deny it either. Fair enough?

Divorced people have communion. Remarried divorcees without an annulment can’t. It is not a punishment, but a protection to the Sacrament of Marriage which is sacred to us…Christopher West is a good source of reference in understanding this in modern language.

NO, you DON’T have to be Catholic to go to Heaven! Who told you that???
God invites to Heaven whomever HE pleases…we don’t know who…we just hope that we are on the list!

 

[Sunflower15]

I bought a copy of Catholics for Dummies recently. i also bought a book recently that just made me mad the more i read it. i can not remember the name of it right now, i send it to a friend who is a nun to read it. it was authored by one of the guys that has something to do with this site. keaton i think was his name.

Whether something makes you happy or mad is no criteria for truth or good.

However, what exactly was it that bothered you so?

 

[Windmill]

BTW, Purgatory is actually a *de fide *dogma of the Church.

I would start by reading the Catholicism for Dummies book that you bought. You owe it to yourself to explore these issues with approved sources.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Then yesterday on here someone said that you had to be Catholic to get to heaven. I totally disagree with that one. I came to know the Lord in 1989, after 14 yr. of attending a protestant church, i never actually knew the Lord. but during an alter call at a Christian concert i felt the strong need to turn my life totally over to the Lord. I went forward and repeated the sinners prayer and my life was instantly transformed. I received an instant peace that I never ever knew existed. It was like I was given new eyes, i saw the whole world and everyone in it differently than i ever had. a whole new world was opened up to me.I was 34 yr old and no i was not a drug user at the time or have i ever been.lol
I knew that night on march 5, 1989 that i truly belonged to the Lord and i did not have to worry whom i had to please as long as i was pleasing to Him. I knew He would be there by my side for the long haul, good or bad.
I took real offense yesterday when several Catholics said protestants could not get to heaven. at the time, i was saved, i actually was not even a protestant or Catholic. i was just a interested person who wanted to know the Lord in a personal way. I never dreamed knowing the Lord would change a persons life so drastically.
I have some other wonderful experiences of the Lord over the years but too lengthy to post at this time.

The Catholic Church specifically *denies *that only those who are self-proclaimed Roman Catholics go to Heaven. That’s a heresy sometimes referred to as Feeneyism. So don’t worry. On that point, you’re right, and they’re wrong.

That said, it’s true that there’s no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. What this means is that anyone who is saved is saved by Christ through the Catholic Church, even if they’ve never heard of Christ or the Church (or have some innocent misconceptions about One or both that keep them away from an external perspective). It also means, though, that you cannot *knowingly *turn your back on Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church, and be saved. That is, if you know that Jesus Christ established This Church, you can’t leave it without turning your back on Him and His desires for your life.

St. Joan of Arc was burnt at the stake by the French Church as a heretic, and later canonized, when we realized she wasn’t a heretic, and was in fact in Heaven (the trial was sort of a show trial - long story, unrelated). My point is that not everyone who seems to be lost is, just like some people seem like great Christians externally, but not in their hearts. God knows, we don’t.

We know that certain people are in Heaven, because their lives reflect the joy of Christ and because they intercede for us in Heaven – we know that God wouldn’t use miracles to “trick” us into thinking certain people were Saints who weren’t, so we know when miracles are performed through the intercession of saints, those Saints really are in Heaven, and are models of Christianity for us to emulate. On the other hand, we don’t know the names of anyone who is 100% for certain in Hell – that’s not our business.

I don’t doubt that you authentically came to Christ at the concert. The Catholic Church doesn’t deny that non-Catholic Christians are, in fact, Christians. We think they’re in error on various points, but they proclaim Christ, and He may well save them through the Church. This idea of salvation through the Church is a bit complex, but know this: everything good in Protestantism originates in Catholicism – when Protestants properly proclaim the Gospel, they’re proclaiming the *Catholic *Gospel, a Gospel which the young Reformers, Luther, Calvin, and the like, were weaned on as youths – the Reformation didn’t have to go looking for the Christian Faith anyone outside of the Catholic Church, and Catholic writers like Augustine and Aquinas. So saved Protestants, whether they know it or not, are saved because the Holy Spirit-guided Church preserved the Bible that they love, and guided the Church into a fuller understanding of things like the Trinity.

So it’s heresy to say that all Protestants are damned. It’s right to say that Protestants who are saved are saved because of Catholic truths which they hold fast to.

 

[Secret_Square]

Cardinal Newman once said that a thousand difficulties do not equal one doubt. Saying “I don’t quite understand this teaching,” or “I don’t like it” or “I wish it were different” is NOT the same as saying “I think it’s totally wrong, I refuse to accept it, and I will tell everyone I know not to follow it.”

Some tips that might be helpful depending on your situation:

Some times Catholics have a hard time separating the actual doctrine from certain pious beliefs or images that have sprung up around that doctrine. Purgatory is a good example of this. Believing in purgatory does NOT mean you have to believe in it being some kind of mini-hell where people languish in flames for hundreds or thousands of years being punished for every little sin they ever committed. We have no idea how long purgatory lasts or what it feels like. It could take place in an instant, since God is not bound by time or space.

Or take the notion that there is “no salvation” outside the Church. That doesn’t mean everyone who isn’t Catholic is going to hell. It means that whatever grace people receive to attain salvation comes, in some fashion, through the Church, even if they don’t realize it or believe in it, and that anyone who is a baptized Christian enjoys at least a partial or incomplete union with the Church. Again, God isn’t bound or limited in what He can do.

As for moral teachings like contraception, divorce, etc. – I would say (just my opinion) that if you follow them in a spirit of obedience because you desire to remain in union with the Church, even though you personally don’t agree with them, you are doing the right thing and are not committing any kind of sin.

Recently I read “Called Out of Darkness” by Anne Rice, the former vampire novelist who now writes books about the life of Jesus. She was raised Catholic, lapsed from the faith for many years, and married a man who was an atheist, but she came back to the Church in the late 1990s simply because she felt God’s love there. She admits in the latter chapters of the book that if she had been more acutely aware at that time of Church teachings on difficult issues like divorce, homosexuality (her son is gay), and women not being allowed to be priests, she might have hesistated to come back. As it is, however, she takes the attitude that she doesn’t HAVE to understand everything about the Church 100 percent, she just trusts that God knows what He’s doing and leaves it at that.

So perhaps it would help if you simply took the attitude that since you love God and love the Church, you trust them not to steer you wrong. You don’t have to understand it all. After all, you can love and remain faithful to your spouse without agreeing 100 percent with every opinion they have, right?

 

[gabriel22a]

I do not believe in purgatory. I told the Sister this when i finished my RCIA classes, she said i did not have to believe in purgatory to join the Church.
I do not think that people who are divorced should be held back from taking the Eucurist.
Missing Mass and you have to go to confession, that somehow seems a little strict.
I love to enter the Church like no other though, all is quiet, because people are praying. not like other churches where everyone is visiting and deciding where they are going to eat afterwards or what they will fix for lunch.
Then yesterday on here someone said that you had to be Catholic to get to heaven. I totally disagree with that one. I came to know the Lord in 1989, after 14 yr. of attending a protestant church, i never actually knew the Lord. but during an alter call at a Christian concert i felt the strong need to turn my life totally over to the Lord. I went forward and repeated the sinners prayer and my life was instantly transformed. I received an instant peace that I never ever knew existed. It was like I was given new eyes, i saw the whole world and everyone in it differently than i ever had. a whole new world was opened up to me.I was 34 yr old and no i was not a drug user at the time or have i ever been.lol
I knew that night on march 5, 1989 that i truly belonged to the Lord and i did not have to worry whom i had to please as long as i was pleasing to Him. I knew He would be there by my side for the long haul, good or bad.
I took real offense yesterday when several Catholics said protestants could not get to heaven. at the time, i was saved, i actually was not even a protestant or Catholic. i was just a interested person who wanted to know the Lord in a personal way. I never dreamed knowing the Lord would change a persons life so drastically.
I have some other wonderful experiences of the Lord over the years but too lengthy to post at this time.

Hi–

Your post caught my eye and my heart. As a former Protestant with an assurance of true fellowship with Christ–now a Catholic for almost two years–I think I understand how you feel. Some of the issues you identify have been troublesome for me, as well, but some things have been resolved for me as I believed in faith (I believe, help Thou my unbelief!) and then found peace.

Most troublesome for me, too, was the insistence on this and other sub-forums by some that Protestants cannot be saved. I was dumbstruck by it–felt tricked, somehow, but motivated to find out if the Church truly teaches this. The catechism clearly teaches that visible and invisible graces are evident in “our separated brethren” (Protestants) and that the children of the Catholic Church are happy to call them brothers.

People argue this to death, citing 14th century infallible teachings (sorry if I’m using the wrong words), but to make a long story short, after my extensive research, I came to the conclusion that the majority of Catholics accept the teaching of the catechism on this issue. And the catechism, according to apologist Fr. Serpa, can be depended on to accurately reflect current Church teaching.

This matter has been satisfied for me, though the learning process was painful because of some of the harshness demonstrated in some posts. I am glad I went through it, though, because I learned a lot.

I hope this helps a little. I am still learning and sometimes doubt my decision to come into the Church, but I find that the daily prayers and sacraments quiet my doubt and give me strength to live the faith daily. He is faithful to me, even when I doubt. I will pray for you.

 

[Sunflower15]

Hi–

Your post caught my eye and my heart. As a former Protestant with an assurance of true fellowship with Christ–now a Catholic for almost two years–I think I understand how you feel. Some of the issues you identify have been troublesome for me, as well, but some things have been resolved for me as I believed in faith (I believe, help Thou my unbelief!) and then found peace.

Most troublesome for me, too, was the insistence on this and other sub-forums by some that Protestants cannot be saved. I was dumbstruck by it–felt tricked, somehow, but motivated to find out if the Church truly teaches this. The catechism clearly teaches that visible and invisible graces are evident in “our separated brethren” (Protestants) and that the children of the Catholic Church are happy to call them brothers.

The fact that the Catholic Church acknowledges only ONE baptism and that any Christian baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is part of the Body of Christ…should suffice that such Christians have access to Heaven.

What we believe is that we have the ‘fullness of the faith’ and that we keep witness in the world of the entire Christian truth. Just as others have said. Even if someone denies the Catholic Church, it is through it that they are saved, when the person repents of sins and seeks God.

That is God’s Plan. Just as no one can change that the original covenant between God and humanity was with the Jews. And that it is valid for all humanity, whether anyone likes it or believes it …or not.

…

This matter has been satisfied for me, though the learning process was painful because of some of the harshness demonstrated in some posts. I am glad I went through it, though, because I learned a lot.

I am a cradle Catholic and those posts hurt me just as much! I don’t know if that helps in any way. All of us are ‘on a learning curve’ and are God’s ‘works in progress’…but the Mother Church and our Mother Mary will get us there safely!

I hope this helps a little. I am still learning and sometimes doubt my decision to come into the Church, but I find that the daily prayers and sacraments quiet my doubt and give me strength to live the faith daily. He is faithful to me, even when I doubt. I will pray for you.

 

[Sunflower15]

I bought a copy of Catholics for Dummies recently. i also bought a book recently that just made me mad the more i read it. i can not remember the name of it right now, i send it to a friend who is a nun to read it. it was authored by one of the guys that has something to do with this site. keaton i think was his name.

Maybe the words that bother you actually mean something entirely different from what is bothering you?

I have noticed this happens between Catholics and Protestants unless they are aware of the differences in meanings.

For example, the Creeds all have the words Holy, Catholic and Apostolic in the end. Catholic means ‘universal’ or maybe even ‘inclusive of diversity’ [a term we understand better] not our Church necessarily…or Lutherans and Anglicans and Orthodox wouldn’t be praying it!

 

[Windmill]

We cannot forget that the Catholic Church is also “One”.

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66 -Dominus Iesus

That was from Cardinal Ratzinger’s (Pope. Benedict) term as prefect of the CDF. It was written to clear up confusion about what “Catholic Church” means. You can click the link on the name to read the text in full. The CDF clearly meant to dispel the idea that “Catholic” implies a diversity of doctrinal beliefs that are contradictory, for Christ’s Church cannot contradict itself.

 

[Secret_Square]

“For example, the Creeds all have the words Holy, Catholic and Apostolic in the end. Catholic means ‘universal’ or maybe even ‘inclusive of diversity’ [a term we understand better] not our Church necessarily…or Lutherans and Anglicans and Orthodox wouldn’t be praying it!”

Just to inject a little humor here… when I was about 13 or 14 years old, my grandfather, a lifelong Presbyterian with a dry sense of humor, asked me “Do you believe in the Holy Catholic Church?” I said, “Of course, why do you ask?” He replied, “Then that makes you a Presbyterian, because it’s in our creed”

 

[Windmill]

Har har, hardy har har.

If you want a personal recommendation for a good book that is rock solid and dead on, then I’d highly recommend this book:

This is the Faith

It’s easy to read, it walks you through the teachings of the Church one-by-one with clarity, and it is updated to include changes in customary practices of the Church (eg. Lenten fasting).