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Montalban
Guest
Exactly! Only you expressed it better than I have - which may have lead to Valke2 going on about other covenants.
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J
jonfan
Guest
HI Daniel,
I think a good start would be to look at Jesus teachings and then compare them to other teachings. Truth clearly stands out from error.
D
dolphinlove
Guest
Welcome Daniel
Read the New Testament.
V
Valke2
Guest
I disagree. And now we have changed the original assertion, that God made no covenants with Arabs, to “if He did, they’re irrelevant.” That’s your belief based on your interpetation of scripture.
The point being made against Islam is that God wouldn’t give them a sacred scripture because He had no covenant with them.
But our own scriptures acknowledge that God made covenants with other nations.
For from the rising of the sun even unto its setting.
My name is great among the nations;
And in every place offerings are presented unto My name,
Even pure oblations;
For My name is great among the nations,
Saith the Lord of hosts
(Malachi 1:11)
Have we not all one father? Hath not One God created us all?
(Malachi 2:10)
“Attachment to the lantern is not loving the light.” Rabbi Silverman.
E
Eileen_T
Guest
That’s the Catholic Church, established by Christ on Peter and the Apostles.
We are all God’s children, you won’t get any arguments about that. It’s just that some of those children have been led stray and don’t fully know the One God as Father.
V
Valke2
Guest
Obviously, as a Jew I don’t Agree. However, we believe there was at least one prophet who was not jewish (2 bible points for the correct answer). But what do prophets have to do with the issue of covenants?
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Montalban
Guest
What? You don’t agree that God promised the Messiah to the same people? Your people!?!
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Montalban
Guest
Like the ‘other prophets’ Moslems believe in, they’re irrelevant. What is known (by Moslems) is that they believe God sent prophet after prophet after prophet ot the one people. Then he changes his mind and sends one to the Arabs.
That’s not my point at all. My point is as stated above that all the known ‘prophets of God’ go to the one people, then he changes his mind and sends one to the Arabs. Even Moslems can’t state a ‘covenant’ to send them a final prophet.
Which are irrelevant to this discussion
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Valke2
Guest
Sorry, I misread the question. I was saying that as a Jew, I obviously don’t agree that Mohammed was the last prophet, or a prophet.
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Montalban
Guest
Okay. But they list named prophets. They’re all of one people. Sure, they might believe any number of un-named prophets may have gone to any number of un-named peoples, but the fact they’re not named seems to me to be a matter of their insignificance, because, after all, their message doesn’t affect us - not in any observable way.
So you’ve got a list of known prophets from Adam through to Jesus. They all belong to a single line -granted that Adam is ancestor of all, but there’s a direct line from Adam through to Jesus insofar as that line consists of the rise of the people we know as Jews.
And Moslems are supposed to respect these - but I’m unaware, for instance of Moses giving his message to the Arabs. So why do they get Muhammad out of this line. There’s no (for want of a better word) pedigree.
I’m sorry if I’ve not explained this better. But, any other ‘covenant’ to others seems irrelevant and outside of this specific line.
So, in short, no Moslem’s been able to tell me why God switches to another people.
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Valke2
Guest
Only the prophets that had messages that were relevant to future generations were recorded (we believe). As for the rest of it, I don’t think I’m following the arguments too well. Is it that, even if Israel or Christians did something wrong, God would choose a prophet from the same group of people that He always did?
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Vaclav
Guest
That is quite a question. I think you would first have to look into your heart, which perhaps you’ve already done by even asking the question in the first place. Then research the teachings of the Church and better yet, talk to a priest, monk, nun, or deacon if you can. In my experience, they will not pressure you and will be able to answer your questions openly and honestly.
In fariness Charlie, there is an entire sura of the Koran devoted to Mary and it has many similarities to the Biblical story (of course it is not completely identical). Muslims also believe in a sinless Mary, so in that sense they share an aspect of faith with us that Protestants reject.
Though I do agree Charlie that Mary would be a great starting point for Daniel, as we share some common ground there and he can contrast the two faiths’ beliefs.
Montalban, what kind of man puts limits on God?
Job?
I think you elevate race to a higher level than Islam of the 7th century did. Remember that the first persecutors of Mohammed, Khadija, and his followers were other Arabs. The Muslims held up in Medina and faced a lot of hostilities and skirmishes from Mecca until they fought each other in open warfare.
In other words, what you are asking of Muslims is something that is simply unimportant to them. They don’t care if Muhammed’s ancestry does not link back to David. It would be like a Muslim asking you about Abraham rebuilding the Kaaba in Mecca. Why would you care?
B
BlestOne
Guest
Valke2,
We believe that God’s covenant with Abraham was exactly as you stated: promises to make him the father of many nations. This is witnessed by his name change to Abraham. However we also believe that Jesus fulfilled this covenant by his death (for the breaking of the covenant, or our sins) and by his resurrection (by destroying death and therefore conquering satan’s grip on his people Israel) the many great nations started with the Jewish people because they were God’s chosen people, but then extended to all; the Jews, the gentiles…anyone who would become the sons and daughters of our Father God. With Jesus the Christ as our brother to show us how to be the children that God wants us to be. If you notice, all of the original apostles are from the Jewish faith. After the resurrection we had Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles…
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Valke2
Guest
M
Montalban
Guest
Well Israel continually disobeyed, but God still kept sending 'em prophets!
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Pump_and_Kin
Guest
So why are so many people confused about religion?
Please give us a clear answer that is far from error.
M
Montalban
Guest
Whilst the truth may be perfect, we are not
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Valke2
Guest
How does Jesus fullfill this particular covenant by his death and resurrection? Assuming he does, wouldn’t that mean that it actually happened, that Abraham was the father of many nations?
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Montalban
Guest
Christianity is a religion of many nations.
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Vaclav
Guest
Yes, I didn’t think Job was a prophet (one would think he’d have seen his own misfortune coming eh?). That was a joke by the way!
Balaam?
Though I did read one comment that claimed that Balaam’s father and Job were “prophets,” but another claimed that Job was a “saint of the Gentiles” in rabbinical literature.
Clearly Balaam was not the positive or good prophet that Moses, Elijah, or Elisha was, correct?
Balaam?
Though I did read one comment that claimed that Balaam’s father and Job were “prophets,” but another claimed that Job was a “saint of the Gentiles” in rabbinical literature.
Clearly Balaam was not the positive or good prophet that Moses, Elijah, or Elisha was, correct?
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