Converting Between Religions

[Belinda]

Gnosis:

Thanks Ahimsa, you have demonstrated significant insight into my spirituality though I really only said little about it!

The basic point of contention between my spirituality and those who say that “I have to choose one or the other” it that they consider a faith to be “God delivered”. Its an “all or nothing” scenario. However, I see no such evidence that any one of the world’s faiths was formed or delivered by God himself, rather I see each of the world’s faiths as an attempt of a people or culture to reach out and understand the divine.

I like that you called it “spiritual creativity” because I often look at spirituality in the same way that one would art work. When one engages in a spiritual connection with God, they become an artist, their spirituality a creative expression of their relation to the divine. The truth need not lie in statements of belief or in accepting complex theological concepts, for such frigid, bare analysis often kills the creative spirit. Ambiguity, metaphor, symbolism, emotion,contrast and paradox, the tools and colors of artisitc expression, become the tools of religious expression, painting a work unique, striking, who’s truth can be best grasped by the painter.

I might suggest now that you read Thomas Aquinus’ Summa. Again, relativism is a type of philosophy of life not compatible with Christianity. Christianity is based on the belief that God did reveal himself to us because we are incapable of “knowing” some things about God without His participation in a relationship with us. Otherwise your religion is totally “self” centered with the human saying who God is and is not. Then there is no absolute truth, only opinion. Again, this understanding of reality is not compatible with Christianity. I agree on one point, you are not Christian. So why would you have a statue of Mary or any Christian figure on an alter?. That sounds like you have faith in something that you really don’t agree with. If it just “feels good” to have them then I applaud you for “listening” to God. I am not trying to be confrontational but I find your method to be comfusing and I believe it will only lead to confusion and inconsistency. I’ve been there and done that!!! It took many wasted years of dissatisfaction before I realized a consistent “method” to truth and true belief, the Catholic Faith.

 

[LatinCat]

Belinda:

I might suggest now that you read Thomas Aquinus’ Summa. Again, relativism is a type of philosophy of life not compatible with Christianity. Christianity is based on the belief that God did reveal himself to us because we are incapable of “knowing” some things about God without His participation in a relationship with us. Otherwise your religion is totally “self” centered with the human saying who God is and is not. Then there is no absolute truth, only opinion. Again, this understanding of reality is not compatible with Christianity. I agree on one point, you are not Christian. So why would you have a statue of Mary or any Christian figure on an alter?. That sounds like you have faith in something that you really don’t agree with. If it just “feels good” to have them then I applaud you for “listening” to God. I am not trying to be confrontational but I find your method to be comfusing and I believe it will only lead to confusion and inconsistency. I’ve been there and done that!!! It took many wasted years of dissatisfaction before I realized a consistent “method” to truth and true belief, the Catholic Faith.

People have tried to discuss this with Gnosis before, but he appears to be addicted to ‘feelings’. Unfortunately he is a very confused kid.

 

[Gnosis]

LOL! So people who are not a carbon copy of your own faith are confused are they? I strongly consider this impulse to have others believe exaclty as we believe to be a psychological impulse. Those who need others to think and believe as they do have a very difficult time grappling with uncertainty and ambiguity, thus everything must be spelled out for them. Faith becomes as simple as opening a book and reading what one has to believe. Hence, other religions threaten us because they force us to question ourselves. Oppoing beliefs threaten that very certainty which sustains our “black and white” image of the world. What to do? Convert! Convert! Convert! That way we don’t have to deal with people who think differently, and we have to spend considerably less time dealing with doubt within ourselves.

I am not “addicted to feelings”, and my spirituality is not just some random composition of what “feels right”. Ambiguity and uncertainty are something that I have learned to grapple with and even embrace. You insinuate that I base my faith on feelings simply because ** I don’t have anyone telling me exactly what I have to believe ** Such exclusivity is to put the mind to sleep, for all thought is surrendered to either a papal authority or to scripture itself under the guise of divine inspiration. No longer is one required to confront the complexity of life, for it has already been dramatically simplified, one never needs to look to oneself, only to a higher authority where it can be trusted that they will make the decision, that they will deal with the complex, like a child who can not function without the guidance of their parent. This is why I believe exlcusivity to be a form of spiritual immaturity, neccessary in the initial stages, but something that one must eventually grow out of.

Thus the exlusivist can not grasp what it means to devluge into different faiths and to emerge with a more universal understanding of the divine, the exclusivist can not grasp the metaphorical, the non-literal, the ambiguous, the intrinsic beauty and truth as exrpessed by each faith. They must resort to the slander of “relativist”, must degrade them as confused, lost or mislead by the devil. They ** must ** for it is the only way in which they can preserve their primitive, simplified vision of the world, the only way which they can continue to avoid uncertainty, their greatest enemy.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Gnosis:

You insinuate that I base my faith on feelings simply because I don’t have anyone telling me exactly what I have to believe

Here you insinuate that most Christians believe what they’re told to believe. Lots on here are converts and reverts who have studied the Church and its history, for various reasons, and have decided to become Catholic or come back to the Church.

 

[Gnosis]

Yes I certainly realize that, but, in essence, they have chosen to believe in a system that tells them exactly what to believe.When I see the few people on this site who disagree with something that is “infallible”, whether from the pope or from scripture, they are accused of not being real catholics. Its either all or nothing, in the mindset of many.

 

[Belinda]

Gnosis:

LOL! So people who are not a carbon copy of your own faith are confused are they? I strongly consider this impulse to have others believe exaclty as we believe to be a psychological impulse. Those who need others to think and believe as they do have a very difficult time grappling with uncertainty and ambiguity, thus everything must be spelled out for them. Faith becomes as simple as opening a book and reading what one has to believe. Hence, other religions threaten us because they force us to question ourselves. Oppoing beliefs threaten that very certainty which sustains our “black and white” image of the world. What to do? Convert! Convert! Convert! That way we don’t have to deal with people who think differently, and we have to spend considerably less time dealing with doubt within ourselves.

I am not “addicted to feelings”, and my spirituality is not just some random composition of what “feels right”. Ambiguity and uncertainty are something that I have learned to grapple with and even embrace. You insinuate that I base my faith on feelings simply because **I don’t have anyone telling me exactly what I have to believe **Such exclusivity is to put the mind to sleep, for all thought is surrendered to either a papal authority or to scripture itself under the guise of divine inspiration. No longer is one required to confront the complexity of life, for it has already been dramatically simplified, one never needs to look to oneself, only to a higher authority where it can be trusted that they will make the decision, that they will deal with the complex, like a child who can not function without the guidance of their parent. This is why I believe exlcusivity to be a form of spiritual immaturity, neccessary in the initial stages, but something that one must eventually grow out of.

Thus the exlusivist can not grasp what it means to devluge into different faiths and to emerge with a more universal understanding of the divine, the exclusivist can not grasp the metaphorical, the non-literal, the ambiguous, the intrinsic beauty and truth as exrpessed by each faith. They must resort to the slander of “relativist”, must degrade them as confused, lost or mislead by the devil. They **must **for it is the only way in which they can preserve their primitive, simplified vision of the world, the only way which they can continue to avoid uncertainty, their greatest enemy.

I was really enjoying a stimulating debate on the pros and cons of the different philosophical opinions between what you described as your beliefs and what my beliefs are. I did not mean for this to digress into personal criticism of any kind. The beauty of Catholocism is that it would take a life-time, no an eternity, to delve into the depths of the beauty, knowledge, mysticism, and spirituality of the faith. The personal relationship with God forged by this journey is indescribable in a mere forum such as this. The fact that we are all on this message board having these debates indicates our curiosity and lack of dependence on “someone telling us what to believe”. I hope you agree and we might continue with an enjoyable debate that would stimulate both of us to deeper thought as well as spirituality and not digress into defensive insult slinging on anyones part. Thanks for hearing me out. Oh, and before anyone insults my spelling, its a disorder and I can’t figure out how to use spell-check on this forum!!!

 

[Gnosis]

Your right, I’m sorry for any offense I might have caused. I would agree with you that Catholicism is a very beautiful faith, indeed, I would not be here unless there was something about it that draws me to it. I was venting my frustration at the assertion that I can not appreciate and even devulge into the beauty of others faiths without being considered confused.

I did not mean to imply that an exclusivist’s faith is, by any means, not authentic. It is simply the exclusivist element, that there is but one way to percieve God, is something I regard as demonstrative of an insecuirty.

I certainly enjoy an exchange of educated dialouge, and would love to continue contrasting and comparing the differences or similarities of our faiths. However, if these exchanges are to be seen as oppertunities to “show me the light” and to convert me from some “apostate religion”, then I will be forced to be highly critical of exlusivism in general. Being evangalized to , I feel, is demeaning. And there is a clear difference between envangalism, with its implications of being a lost and helpless soul, and explaining one’s own beliefs with confidence, hoping that others might be able to learn from them and indeed, hoping you can learn more from others.

 

[LatinCat]

Gnosis:

Yes I certainly realize that, but, in essence, they have chosen to believe in a system that tells them exactly what to believe.When I see the few people on this site who disagree with something that is “infallible”, whether from the pope or from scripture, they are accused of not being real catholics. Its either all or nothing, in the mindset of many.

We believe what those things tells us because we have come to the conclusion through intellectual pursuit that such things are valid. Unlike your determination of truth that has nothing to do with validity.

 

[LatinCat]

Gnosis:

Your right, I’m sorry for any offense I might have caused. I would agree with you that Catholicism is a very beautiful faith, indeed, I would not be here unless there was something about it that draws me to it. I was venting my frustration at the assertion that I can not appreciate and even devulge into the beauty of others faiths without being considered confused.

I did not mean to imply that an exclusivist’s faith is, by any means, not authentic. It is simply the exclusivist element, that there is but one way to percieve God, is something I regard as demonstrative of an insecuirty.

I certainly enjoy an exchange of educated dialouge, and would love to continue contrasting and comparing the differences or similarities of our faiths. However, if these exchanges are to be seen as oppertunities to “show me the light” and to convert me from some “apostate religion”, then I will be forced to be highly critical of exlusivism in general. Being evangalized to , I feel, is demeaning. And there is a clear difference between envangalism, with its implications of being a lost and helpless soul, and explaining one’s own beliefs with confidence, hoping that others might be able to learn from them and indeed, hoping you can learn more from others.

Well, the objective fact is that you are a lost soul. Sorry buddy but that is the hard reality of the situation. We care more about your soul than we do about your feelings.

 

[aixia]

I too am a former eclectic Wiccan (and a cradle Catholic). I thought the religion had some real beauty to it as well, but at the end of the day, it just wasn’t right for me. I adored the people I met through the group I joined (not a coven, a group of other neo-pagans at my university), but after a few years, I knew it just wasn’t the “right path” to use Wiccan terms. The beauty and ritual I loved from my Catholic upbringing was gone, and while the morality of Wicca was good, it wasn’t clear enough sometimes. “An it harm none” is a wonderful rule to live by, and I still do, but sometimes you forget about harming yourself as being part of that.

Here’s what my advice is, and take it as what you will. If you feel like converting because you like the idea of multiple gods and a stronger emphasis on women, turn to Mary. Mary shows us how powerful a woman can be, and she was just a human, not a god. If a regular woman can be that powerful and positive, then we all have hope for ourselves. The gods of history were flawed in some pretty major ways, and while that originally drew me to them, they weren’t any more deserving of being gods than I was. What good was it to have a goddess who could help you, but if you cross her she gets mad and can hurt you? I liked the idea of a more forgiving nature that doesn’t come with being a flawed god. If you feel like converting to be closer to your friends, get more involved with your Catholic parish. Meet some new friends there. You sound like you’re in college, and campus parishes are usually very good about having events to meet people, especially around holidays and before/after semester breaks. Or, spend a little more time with your Catholic friends you do have. You don’t have to stop spending time with your Wiccan friends, just branch out a little and meet others. If it’s the proselytizing you don’t like, then look for people who share your thoughts. (There are some of us who are Catholic and don’t agree with active proselytizing.) Whatever you discover that you like in Wicca, look for something similar in Catholicism.

If after doing that kind of a search you still feel drawn to Wicca, then (to use a little more pagan terminology) maybe there’s something you need to learn there. But even being a Wiccan for years, I know more people who fell away from it than people who stayed forever. Should you leave, you should also know you’re always welcome back when you ever decide to return. Friends may come and go, and you may have to go through a lot of changes before you figure out who you really are, but the good thing about Catholicism is you always are one. I may not agree with the Church on some things, but I still consider myself Catholic. It’s a part of your identity. It’s a part of your heritage. In many cases, it’s a part of your ethnicity. Even if you leave, that doesn’t go away, and I think that was a very big part of what drew me back. Beliefs may waver, ideas may change, but Catholicism is something stamped on your soul and even if you don’t agree with it, even if you don’t believe in it anymore, it stays with you until you’re ready to acknowledge it again.

Feel free to PM me anytime if you need someone to talk to who’s been in your shoes.

 

[Gnosis]

Well, the objective fact is that you are a lost soul. Sorry buddy but that is the hard reality of the situation. We care more about your soul than we do about your feelings.

Objective fact? You don’t even know me, you have no idea as to what kind of person I am. The fact that you consider correct theological views to be the central and foundational point of spirituality is something I can not quite understand, and is not a spirituality that I desire.

As heartfelt as you think your sentiments may be, I am much inclined to believe that your concerns lie not for me, but rather for your own self-preservation.

 

[Ahimsa]

Well, the objective fact is that you are a lost soul. Sorry buddy but that is the hard reality of the situation. We care more about your soul than we do about your feelings.

Objective fact? You don’t even know me, you have no idea as to what kind of person I am. The fact that you consider correct theological views to be the central and foundational point of spirituality is something I can not quite understand, and is not a spirituality that I desire.

As heartfelt as you think your sentiments may be, I am much inclined to believe that your concerns lie not for me, but rather for your own self-preservation.

The Catholic Catechism, if I’m not mistaken, actually says nothing about the characteristics of a “lost soul”. Even someone who is objectively “non-Catholic,” not to mention non-Christian, is not necessarily a lost soul, since there is such a thing as “invincible ignorance,” as well as the law God has written upon each human heart.

 

[rayne100]

Gnosis:

As heartfelt as you think your sentiments may be, I am much inclined to believe that your concerns lie not for me, but rather for your own self-preservation.

Well said Gnosis

 

[LatinCat]

Well, the objective fact is that you are a lost soul. Sorry buddy but that is the hard reality of the situation. We care more about your soul than we do about your feelings.

Objective fact? You don’t even know me, you have no idea as to what kind of person I am. The fact that you consider correct theological views to be the central and foundational point of spirituality is something I can not quite understand, and is not a spirituality that I desire.

As heartfelt as you think your sentiments may be, I am much inclined to believe that your concerns lie not for me, but rather for your own self-preservation.

As for your invalid psychological assessment (when did you get a degree in psychology?) You don’t even know me, you have no idea as to what kind of person I am.

 

[LatinCat]

rayne100:

Well said Gnosis

Why is it that when ever a person engages in some ill concieved psychological evaluation, people are ooooing and ahing? Let us avoid such silliness and return to the issue at hand.

 

[LatinCat]

Well, the objective fact is that you are a lost soul. Sorry buddy but that is the hard reality of the situation. We care more about your soul than we do about your feelings.

Objective fact? You don’t even know me, you have no idea as to what kind of person I am. The fact that you consider correct theological views to be the central and foundational point of spirituality is something I can not quite understand, and is not a spirituality that I desire.

As heartfelt as you think your sentiments may be, I am much inclined to believe that your concerns lie not for me, but rather for your own self-preservation.

Its nice that you can display how slanderous you can be. But any, you don’t know me. And I am in fact very concerned for the soul of any person who has fallen from the grace of the Catholic faith. I care a great deal about other people. I am the oldest of six and caring for those younger than me has always been central to my life. Maybe that is part of the reason that I am a teacher. And, yes, the objective fact is that any who walk away from the Christian faith are lost. Whether they believe so or not.

 

[Belinda]

Gnosis:

Your right, I’m sorry for any offense I might have caused. I would agree with you that Catholicism is a very beautiful faith, indeed, I would not be here unless there was something about it that draws me to it. I was venting my frustration at the assertion that I can not appreciate and even devulge into the beauty of others faiths without being considered confused.

I did not mean to imply that an exclusivist’s faith is, by any means, not authentic. It is simply the exclusivist element, that there is but one way to percieve God, is something I regard as demonstrative of an insecuirty.

I certainly enjoy an exchange of educated dialouge, and would love to continue contrasting and comparing the differences or similarities of our faiths. However, if these exchanges are to be seen as oppertunities to “show me the light” and to convert me from some “apostate religion”, then I will be forced to be highly critical of exlusivism in general. Being evangalized to , I feel, is demeaning. And there is a clear difference between envangalism, with its implications of being a lost and helpless soul, and explaining one’s own beliefs with confidence, hoping that others might be able to learn from them and indeed, hoping you can learn more from others.

Dear Gnosis, I hope you don’t think that our discussions are in any way meant to be demeaning or lack respect, but my intent is to evagalize. When I leave mass each week, I am instructed to go out and love and serve the Lord. Our role in this world is to spread the Good News that JEsus is Lord. That said, I completely respect all other faith traditions and maintain the greatest respect for anyone pursuing and developing their spirituality. My friends and family are an eclectic lot. They tease me that I’m a holy roler but it is all in good fun. I know I will be teased but I never shut up. My family is a group of “debators” We love a good intellectual challenge. I like people to “make me think” and expand my awareness of who God is.

You mentioned some things that makes me think you may feel restricted by “orthodoxy” or religions that appear rigid and inflexible. This was also a problem that I had at one time. I was reading a new author (to me) who wrote at the turn of the last century and engaged in some famous debates with George Bernard Shaw about the existence of God. He also wrote a book called “Orthodoxy” from which the following quote comes,

“The ordinary man has always been sane because he is a mystic. He has permitted the twilight. He has always had one foot in earth and one foot in fairyland. He has always left himself free to doubt his gods; (but unlike the agnostics of today) free also to believe in them. He has always cared more for truth than for consistency. If he saw two truths that seem to contradict each other, he would take the truths and the contradiction along with them. His spiritual sight is stereoscopic; like his physical sight: he sees two different pictures at once and yet sees all the better for that. Thus he has always believed that there was such a thing as fate, but such a think as free will also. Thus he believed that children were the kingdom of heaven but nevertheless aught to be obedient to the kingdom of earth. He admired youth because it was young and age because it was not. It is exactly this balance of apparent condradictions that has been the whole buoyancy of the healthy man. The whole secret of mysticism is this: that man can understand everything by the help of what he does not understand.”

Chesterton was trying to argue against the modern philosophy of the day. My point in quoting him here is to emphasize that orthodoxy is anything but rigid, or lacking in inspiration, or following mindless rules. Each rule, each dogma, each doctrine, when studied, and meditated upon, is a rich opportunity for delving into the essence of God. It’s exciting, mysterious, and makes for opportunities of development I like to describe as my little Epiphany moments. Moments of extreme spiritual clarification that bring glimpses of the Almighty. Unfortunately human weakess and human limitations make these moments few and far between.

You seem to be a person on a similar journey. I prefer a really good road-map. G.K. Chesterton was this author I quoted. He has written many other books besides this one. I am reading the Orthodoxy text now but have ordered several more of his writings including what many recommend as the best summary of St. Thomas Aquinus’ Summa. It’s entitled The Dumb Ox. Although I read mostly Catholic authors now, I have read some about other faith traditions but none have ever tempted me away from my Faith in any serious way. Man have I rambled on…

 

[Gnosis]

I understand that you do not mean to be offensive nor demeaning.

Religion is what my family has labelled to be “an obsession” of mine. As long as I can remember I have had a tendency towards contemplation of it. As a child I was in awe of Catholicism, in the first years of highschool I was a determined literalist protestant, who was forced to remain in the Church out of respect to my mother. In my last years of highschool I devulged into liberal Christianity, Gnosticism and eventually Buddhism. I’m just concluding my first term at university in which I am pursuing a major in religion in culture, I studied Hinduism this term as well as perceptions of evil and psychological elements of religion. I intend to take post-graduate work and work towards a masters and eventually a PHD. Having thoroughly considered my various spiritual stages, I am able to say I am at a very balanced point, and that my spirituality has sustained me in key points of turmoil, most notably, when I came out as gay to my family. But I also know that my spiritual is in a perpetual state of growth.

Are you so terribly confident in your own beliefs that you can freely assert:

1. That your faith is serving you in a manner in which my faith can not possibly do
2. That your beliefs are so infinitely superior as to neccessitate converting everyone to them
3. That correct theological views are more important than where those views can take us as human beings
4. That the validiy of your faith exludes my own as a legitimate engagment with the divine
5. That I have not done the appropriate thinking, introspection and contemplation neccessary before one commits themselves to a faith
6. That there is only one single, valid church that can only deal with God in one single valid way despite the incredible diversity of people and cultures, despite the fact that millions of people have asserted that the Church is simply not for them.
7. That the millions (or more) of people who have decided not to be Catholic can’t possibly have made the right choice, can’t possibly have thought about it enough, and therfore must have been selfish, confused, or mislead?

Again, it may not be your intention to be demeaning. But your intent to evangalise is just dripping with arrogance. I recognize your faith as a legitimate and valid expression of your relationship with God. I can not accept the exclusive element. Yet many will assert that it is this exlcusive element that is the heart of Christianity, that it is a central tenet. If the heart of a religion is, in fact, the denial of all others then it is not a spirituality that I can pursue.

 

[melbourne_guy]

Gnosis:

My point is that (though many people will oppose this) just because you are pursuing the Wiccan religion does not mean that you have to fully discard Catholicism. You can freely take part in both. Every religion is flawed, there is no “all or nothing” scenario. Religion is, most importantly, an individual journey and every person, regardless of what they say they believe, relate to God and understand God in a slightly different way than the next. Some beliefs are incompatible with others, but again, religion is so much more than concepts that we hold to be true. One’s faith is a living, fluid, breathing reality, don’t allow instituitons or the lines that other human beings have drawn to limit your own experiences.

have you ever read the bible, or do you just cherry pick which verses youd like to read. The one thing i iv learnt by reading the old teastament is that god does not tolerate other religions or false idols and specifically tells people that if they do they will be cursed. Silver wings dont take gnosis’s advice because it would be a waste of time to practice catholicism alongside wicca, as you would still be going to hell.

 

[cazayoux]

I infer from Gnosis’ list that …

(1) Gnosis is very intelligent, well studied, and well spoken
(2) Gnosis knows he is very intelligent, well studied, and well spoken
(3) Gnosis doesn’t know which religion holds all truth.
(4) Since Gnosis doesn’t know this, he will (with all intelligence, heart, spirit, study, and sincerity) cover his bases by having shrines to the major religions.

I, personally, do not worry about God and his relationship with Buddhists (or any other religion). I work on what I have in front of me. I’m sure that God has a plan. I’m sure I don’t know what that is.

michel