Converting Between Religions

[Belinda]

Dear Gnosis, your points are well articulated and I appreciate knowing some of your background too as how we develop often explains where we are. I suspected you might be a college student as it is not uncommon for you to have a more universal acceptance of sprirituality at your age and level of education. I was exactly there at your age. But that was 25 years ago and several university degrees ago. I do not say this to imply that I am somehow better educated or have more “authority” to speak, only that I am at an entirely different developmental stage of belief in God than you. Professionally, I specialize in developmental psychology and thus every stage of life is important in understanding development in each area of life, including spirituality. We are speaking from two different stages of life. Yours is valid at your stage. I would think that you will continue to change and grow and become more “specialized” in your faith as well as in your career. That is the normal path we take in life. Increasing our knowledge and understanding constantly. What an exciting time we both have ahead of us. I am only middle-aged so suspect that my spirituality is still in its adolescence. It makes growing older and exciting event rather than something to dread.

1. Yes my faith is serving me in a manner that your faith cannot possibly do. Everyone’s faith serves them according to their needs. My Catholicism is particular to me and unlike any other Catholic. My relationship with the Trinity is “personal”. If you were Catholic, your experience would also be unlike mine although we might be able to connect in some ways.
2. Yes, but my beliefs, I must humbly state, I did not make up, but were revealed by God. This is what most people don’t understand about the “arrogance” of people who “push” their faith. We are very humble because we have realized that we would be nothing without Jesus. That it is Him who is moving us, Him who has the words, Him who we proclaim, not ourselves. This is what gives us the so called “arrogance” to proclaim the truth.
3. As a student, you must accept that truth leads you somewhere and error leads you nowhere. Let me give you an analogy. I can learn my multiplication tables correctly or incorrectly, one leads me to mathmatical truth, the other to error. It is sad if people refuse to use logic in spirituality. Why would we throw out laws that work in every other realm of life but want to “feel” our way in the area of religion. As a student of religion, you are in the business of studying with a method.
4. Never think that Catholicism is an exclusive religion. As you study religion, read Papal bulls. This is clarified as late as 1894 by the pope at that time. He speaks clearly of the universal church and how people of different faiths can be redeemed by Jesus through “baptism of desire” even if they have never heard of the name of Jesus. True Catholicism is not what most people think, even some Catholics. Only those people who hear of the faith in Jesus, believe it to be true, and reject it anyway, are condemned.
5. I assumed you had not commited to a faith by the description of yourself that you gave in your first e-mail. I assumed that you considered yourself “on a journey” but not yet commited to a path. It appeared that you were still deciding what was the best path to take and were exploring many options. I apologize if I misinterpreted. It is difficult to communicate this way and get the full essence of who someone is, isn’t it.
6. That we assert there is one universal church implies that we are all connected through the one True God and how we express it is extremely diverse. There are many different liturgical churches within Catholocism which is a recognition that people express their faith according to different cultural influences, spiritual influences, etc. If everyone on earth decided by popular vote that something was not true, it does not change the fact of whether that thing were true or not. If everyone on earth decided to reject the church of Jesus, it would not change the fact that Jesus established a Church for us to be a part of his Body.
7. The fact that I think they are in error does not not mean that it is what they think. They have the right to be wrong. They have the right to think that I’m wrong, and frequently do. The basic tenent that I must constantly reassert it that there is an Objective Truth, that humans can know, if we accept the revelation of God, and use our logical brains that God gave us so that we can know him. He allows us to seek and find him but we must have a method. I think I’ve found mine. I guess we will know for sure in Heaven. Right now we’ve got faith.

 

[Archbishop]

Silverwings: I can certainly appreciate your situation. I want to suggest something and I do not mean to sound condescending in any way. I am merely bringing up a point that perhaps you have not considered. If you are not getting anything out of your Catholic religion, have you considered that the issue may not be with the Catholic religion, but with your personal relationship to Jesus Christ? I have read the many posts and I see people telling you to go to Mass, pray the Rosary, read this saint, etc. but I don’t recall seeing one which has asked you about your relationship to Jesus? Do you know him as Savior and Lord? You cannot know the Church unless you know its Master.

All of the suggestions are wonderful. Yes, by all means attend Mass. Pray the Rosary. Read St. Francis if you have a love of Nature. I am a Franciscan (Third Order) and I assure you that you will definitely find a partner in our Father Francis+. Find a good Bible Study group. BUT, do you know Jesus Christ? That is the real root of the issue.

And to the idea that you are hearing in your parish that everyone is going to hell and there is nothing you can do about it, that is pure nonsense and downright unscriptural and definitely against the treaching of Holy Mother Church. People who refuse the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ and refuse to accept the benefits of his death on the cross in their own life are going to hell. Plain and simple. Yet, there is a way of escape. To turn to Christ, repent of ones sins, ask for his forgiveness, accept his divine mercy, receive the sacraments of the Church and continue in a life of daily conversion dedicated to pursuing holiness. That is the way by which one is delivered from God’s wrath and placed into the loving and tender arms of the Good Shepherd who tenderly cares for his own.

It becomes a life worth living. A life of joy and peace even in times of heartache and sorrow. A life surrounded by millions of brothers and sisters in Christ who are on the journey with you. When you know Jesus Christ intimately, you will find yourself sometimes so overwhelmed at Mass that you will not be able to contain the tears at times and at other times you may find that you want to burst out with laughter because you are so full of the joy of the Lord when you realize that all that he is donoe for you.

So again, before the Church will have meaning for you, make sure that the Lord of the Church has meaning for you. You are in my prayers. May the prayers of St. Francis and Our Lady be with you. May this blessed Advent season see a fresh coming of the Lord Jesus into your life.

In the peace of Christ,

Abp +Mark

 

[Gnosis]

Belinda,

What I think we have to acknowledge here is a disparity between your conception of religion and mine.

When we study the gospels we find that Christ said “Be perfect therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. The Greek word for perfect used in this quote is telios, which means “complete”, contrary to the popular notion that he implied some kind of sinless purity.

I see the end goal, or purpose of a religion as the making of whole persons. We are a fragmented, hurt, tormented and wayward people. Religion seeks to make us whole again, to pick up those fragments, to heal those wounds, to direct us through that torrential and fierce thing that we call life. It is a means through which we come into our full potential, ever deepening our capacity for love and compassion, for forgiveness, for mercy, for those very noble traits that seem to make us most fully human. It is to look down, deep down inside, to confront the miry grime that has accumulated in our darkest and most ignored spaces, and to emerge in fullness, in wholeness, in completion.

Your approach to religion is rather different. While I know you value everything mentioned above, the purpose of religion you have put forth is a kind of salvation achieved through adherence or belief in correct theological views. Thus your entire claim to an exclusive faith rests on the notion that your beliefs have been revealed by God, and only by holding onto these beliefs can one truly know him.

From my approach, seeing the purpose of religion as one of wholeness, your faith can not possibly be exclusive, for the consequences of your beliefs can only be seen entirely and exclusively in some ambiguous metaphysical realm. That is to say, there is nothing that your “one true faith” can produce that we can observe that other faiths themselves can not bring forward. You mentioned that you “were nothing without Jesus”, which implies that you understand what I am speaking of when I speak of wholeness. Your faith has made you whole, complete. If it was Christianity alone that could bring us to this state of wholeness, then I would immediately convert to your way of thinking. Alas, we do not see a world filled with righteous, loving, compassionate and “whole” Christians, whilst the members of every other faith drown themselves in moral apathy. No, we can see people who have found true peace in every faith. If you were to take a person who knew nothing of any religion, and to have him observe a person of every faith, each being one who follows their religion truly, I suspect they would not be able to say “This one is Christian”, for, in their manner, they become indistinguishable.

This wholeness that you seem to imply, or this salvation that you speak of is not delivered by “belief in Jesus” or loyalty to the Church alone, for there is nothing distinctly and uniquely good about it that we can not see in someone of another faith. This distinction, this exclusive element exists solely in your assertion of it and no where else.

So as far as my current spirituality being a typical, all embracing stage of youthful exploration, I’m afraid you have not made your case. Plead with me as you may, I will not close the doors on the profound truths I have come to understand through various religious channels. Exclusivity is not a trait that I will earn with maturity or age, unless in senility. Grieve my lost soul if you must, but from my perspective, I am just beginning to discover it.

 

[Kendy]

silverwings:

As I said earlier, my decision will not be made lightly or anytime soon. I will study Catholicism and Wicca as my college studies permit during free times, which is very little at the moment due to upcoming finals. For now all I am learning of Wicca is its history. The current lessons are centered on the different holidays and how they came to be. Peer pressue definitely does not drive me to change, and this situation is no different.If I do change I see more need for me to be absolutely sure of my decision. I knwo of one who had her life threatened just because she was Wiccan. I have always loved Nature and the peace and serenity I find within myself when I surround myself with Nature. Feminism, Mary is a very strong woman and role model who deserves the respect she is given. But I would hope that I can find strength in myself before I need look to another woman such as Mary. Power, if it is power to wield over others then no, definitly not. No human should have that power. But power over myself. Life has been extremely trying over the past year and a half, but I looked to myself to control it, not a Creator. Although I have never, nor will I ever, doubt the existence of the Creator. The Church I am attending is indeed a Catholic Church in walking distance, it is also the only one within an hour’s drive. I have not returned fro almost two months now. I have attended other services with Christian friends but those pushed me away even more than the Mass I had attended. I have my Bible and some daily readings which I read as often as I find time for. I guess my only question left unanswered at themoment is how will my Christian family and friends react if I tell then that I am Wiccan? I am dependent on my parents for assitance with college tuition. Financially I can start taking some of the burden next fall, but not yet. Will they withdraw their support? I cannot make it with out them and I have so many dreams about a career that I have had since childhood. Thanks for all advice and the link on mystical Catholicism. I will take it into consideration as I study.

Hi Silverwings

I realize I am joining this conversation a week late. Have you had any thoughts recently about your struggles?

I want to say first that I am protestant and I will make no attempt to get you to leave the catholic church so you can become protestant.

You seem to be experiencing a great deal of spiritual dryness in your Christian practice, and I wanted to ask you a few questions. First, what are you searching for and how will you know that you have found it? What is it that you want from God? And do you have any sense of what He wants from you? Lastly, I know that you have spent a lot of time in the church so I wonder if you have reflected at all on Jesus Christ? What do you believe about Him?

I hope you are well,

Kendy

 

[rayne100]

LatinCat:

Why is it that when ever a person engages in some ill concieved psychological evaluation, people are ooooing and ahing? Let us avoid such silliness and return to the issue at hand.

What are you implying?
All I was saying was that I thought Gnosis presented his idea in well spoken way.
I was not detracting form the conversation.

 

[BrianH]

This may or may not contribute to this coversation. Sometime ago, after being let down by many things about my particular denomination and feeling spiritually void, I went on a spiritual quest, I was willing to consider all religions. It was…in retrospect…the arrogance of MY youth(I mean that only towards me). I thought I found one. It seemed to answer so much. I told my Dad…and he said, “son your decision will effect you and generations of your children, just think some more”(I did not even have five kids at the time!). I thought some more and decided to hold off. Years later, when I look at the lifestyle and what that would have meant for my family, I shudder. What was convincing to me at 24 is laughable to me years later. It is not an easy choice to switch these things as you well know…Good luck, I think you will find TRUTH in Christ Jesus…I really do.
Good luck and sorry to enter this so late.
BrianH

 

[imroc]

silverwings:

I am considering converting to a Non-Christian Reiligion. Four of my closest friends are of this Religion. Two have been in this Religion for quite some time and one of those two is an ordained Reverand. The other two, one of which is my boyfriend, converted about three months ago. I was raised as a Catholic but to be honest, my Catholic upbringing basically stopped after my first communion 12 years ago. My friends are more than happy to include me in there study groups. I have attended one ceremony with them and I will admit that I felt more from that one hour than from anything I felt in a Catholic ceremony of any kind. I have left thier Religion as an unknown for an attempt to have a relatively unbiased response. Should I convert to their Religion? Or should I not? What do you all think? Please let me know, and any advice is welcome. Thank You.

Honestly, you won’t get any support to leave. And to be thoroughly honest with you, you absolutely need some serious 1 on 1 teaching of the Church, catechesis and serious emotional support to get you back on track. There are millions of people seperated from the body of Christ because they “felt” something. Worldly things such as music, an amplifier, a speaker, a charismatic individual, all these things can move people quite easily. Especially if combined. They are of the world. You need the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. That’s exactly what the Bible say’s. That Pillar and that Foundation are through CHRIST’S Church. You’ll find that man made doctrine such as “no drinking wine”, “no rosary beads” and such are merely 400+ year old beliefs. And surely it isn’t some neo-ultra New age movement that is only a phase. You must fall upon the truth and it will not be a short ride, but come home, please.

The other thing that I find disturbing is the fact that you said you have asked other catholics for advise but get brushed off. Well, you’ve asked us and some of your brothers and/or sisters right here in this topic have already experienced what you are going through. They have heartfelt answers and guidance for you, but you seem to brush them off by saying that you will continue to study it. Why? I’m not sure why you asked for advice if you are only going to shelf it. I pray to God that you do not shelf it, join Wicca, find emptiness, come back to the Church and then read back on what we wrote. I ask you to bypass the drama and dangerous game your playing with those beliefs. Your very soul is in grave danger. There are plenty of people in the Church who can help you and you’ve found a great starting point. You’ve already begun the inquiry, follow through and find the truth. The truth is definitely not in some 60 year old activity. God Bless you!

 

[Contarini]

silverwings:

I attend Mass once in awhile but alot of what I hear from that is we are all going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it.

That seems truly bizarre. Are you sure that’s what the priest said? I can’t imagine a Catholic priest saying such a thing. In fact, I’ve rarely heard a Catholic priest even mention hell.

Edwin