Converting from Catholic to Protestant...

[IrishEddieOHara]

I pointed it out BEFORE if were paying attention. Also I’m sure that unless we define it by the supposedly narrow standard set out in the book you keep raving about we’ll be ‘in error’

Hmmmmmmmmm…where’s that emoticon??

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Yeah, I gotta give ya props, dude. You are a MASTER TAP DANCER. At least, when it comes to avoiding the obvious.

What you are really saying is that you don’t WANT to know what a professor of theology at a seminary has taught about the covenant and how he shows the principles of it because you don’t wish to be wrong.

And then you blow me off.

Nice.

 

[climer97007]

Yeah, I gotta give ya props, dude. You are a MASTER TAP DANCER. At least, when it comes to avoiding the obvious.

Like two Irish Staffordshire Bull Terriers going at each others throats. If you and Irish Joe are really Christians, and it is hard to tell sometimes with all the labelling and name calling going both ways, maybe you could dedicate this Lent to being more and more of the ears of Christ, and less and less of the Irish Bull Terrier.

Gene

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

Like two Irish Staffordshire Bull Terriers going at each others throats. If you and Irish Joe are really Christians, and it is hard to tell sometimes with all the labelling and name calling going both ways, maybe you could dedicate this Lent to being more and more of the ears of Christ, and less and less of the Irish Bull Terrier.

Gene

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh…I don’t see that he has called me any names ( you know, like “papist fool” “satan’s child” or “demon inspired katlick” — which I used to get over at CARM all the time by the bigots over there) and I don’t think I called him any names (like “prottie fool” or “hellbound heretic” or any such as I have seen from some Catholic Traddies).

We are in a somewhat warm debate, and it could get worse, I suppose, if we let it. I dunno. I guess it bothers me somewhat when I make reading suggestions to people who are violating certain scriptural principles and their response is to basically blow me off.

Nonetheless, I’ll try to take your advice. I can be somewhat intemperate.

 

[mmmcounts]

Nah, I’d never do that!

However, I’m curious why anyone would.

Some do because they would like to have meaningful assurance of salvation. Others, because they believe certain Catholic teachings contradict what is written in the Bible. And some others just aren’t into Latin Christianity from the Middle Ages as much as you are.

The Protestant wants you do STOP doing things that are spiritually rich.
Stop receiving Eucharist.

We all do Communion. None of us believe transubstantiation actually occurs, and I wouldn’t characterize such a belief as any less spiritually rich. I would, however, characterize is as a belief that is more in touch with reality.

Stop confessing sins.

I confess sins to God first and foremost, and other people are consistently involved (though none of them claim to do the things a priest will claim to do). They must fit the following criteria:

1. Spiritually mature Christians that are growing in Christ.
2. People I know well and can trust.

That’s really about it. I don’t know any priests, so what do you expect me to do- start confessing to a complete stranger who may or may not be “above reproach” (you know what I mean) and start believing him when he says he’s doing something that I don’t think he can actually do? No thank you.

Tell you what. If I ever run into a priest who I become friends with and he’s willing to be as open and honest with me as I am with him, I might be willing to overlook some of the other details. That hasn’t happened yet, though, and I don’t really think it will.

Stop praying for intercession.

Eh…it’s complicated, but not really. Your exact statement here is woefully inadequate and entirely false, but I know what you meant. And even that isn’t entirely true.

Stop obeying Rome.

Please do obey Rome when Rome is right about something. That does happen to be most of the time, but not all the time.

Stop adoration.

That’s fairly accurate, though it depends on the specific type of Protestant. I suppose the exact reasons are unimportant.

You know, you probably should have leveled these accusations against Evangelicals instead of Protestants. “Protestant” tends to bring people like Lutherans and Anglicans to mind- church bodies that broke directly from Rome. Evangelicals are indirect descendants of these kinds of people, and many of them find Lutherans to be too “Catholic” for them to be around all the time.

Stop, stop, stop.

I guess that’s what it feels like to you, huh?

What do they want you to start doing?
Hmmm?

That’s a perfectly valid question, but the addition of “Hmmm?” makes it look rather snarky and disingenuous.

To answer the question, though…discipleship. If you want to know exactly what I mean by discipleship, go ahead and ask.

When someone tells you the road to salvation can only be traveled by those who stop praying I suggest you run…really, really fast!

I’m surprised that there are some Catholics in the world today who really believe Protestants discourage each other from prayer. May I ask where you got such an idea, and how is it that you think it’s at all accurate? Where did you go wrong?

 

[Dokimas]

Nah, I’d never do that!

However, I’m curious why anyone would.

The Protestant wants you do STOP doing things that are spiritually rich. You’re not exactly correct.
Stop receiving Eucharist. - protestant church have communion.
Stop confessing sins. - the Bible teaches us to confess and repent;
Stop praying for intercession. - We intercede for each other; I’ve even asked some here to pray
Stop obeying Rome. - finally you got one totally correct.
Stop adoration. - Jesus is to be adored; It wonderful to do so.

Stop, stop, stop. Yes, stop saying things that aren’t exactly correct, please.

What do they want you to start doing?
Hmmm?

When someone tells you the road to salvation can only be traveled by those who stop praying I suggest you run…really, really fast! I know of no one that says what you seem to be saying. However, if a church teaches not to pray, sure run away right away!!

 

[Holly3278]

Nah, I’d never do that!

However, I’m curious why anyone would.

The Protestant wants you do STOP doing things that are spiritually rich.
Stop receiving Eucharist.
Stop confessing sins.
Stop praying for intercession.
Stop obeying Rome.
Stop adoration.

Stop, stop, stop.

What do they want you to start doing?
Hmmm?

When someone tells you the road to salvation can only be traveled by those who stop praying I suggest you run…really, really fast!

I’d also be interested as to why anyone would want to leave the one true Church, the Catholic Church. I mean, why leave Jesus behind? Why leave confession behind? By leaving Jesus behind, you’re leaving behind many graces. By leaving confession behind, you are also leaving behind many graces. Plus, you’ll no longer have a way to be forgiven of your mortal sins if you leave confession behind.

 

[Holly3278]

I love this website and recommend it to any Catholic who has left the Church:

catholicscomehome.org/

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

I’d also be interested as to why anyone would want to leave the one true Church, the Catholic Church. I mean, why leave Jesus behind? Why leave confession behind? By leaving Jesus behind, you’re leaving behind many graces. By leaving confession behind, you are also leaving behind many graces. Plus, you’ll no longer have a way to be forgiven of your mortal sins if you leave confession behind.

I am always amazed by Catholics who think that I “lost something” when I left the Catholic Church; I did not leave Jesus behind. I confess ALL of my sins to Jesus and know that I am forgiven and cleansed because He died for my sins.

John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

I also did not leave grace behind, since grace comes through faith in Christ. The only thing I left behind are the man made rules of the Catholic Church (and yes, I truly do understand what the Catholic Church teaches). What I gained is a deeper faith in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for my sins. I have also gained a greater desire to submit to his guidance in my life. I have lost nothing and gained everything that matters!

 

[Carlan]

Some do because they would like to have meaningful assurance of salvation. Others, because they believe certain Catholic teachings contradict what is written in the Bible. And some others just aren’t into Latin Christianity from the Middle Ages as much as you are

We all do Communion. None of us believe transubstantiation actually occurs, and I wouldn’t characterize such a belief as any less spiritually rich. I would, however, characterize is as a belief that is more in touch with reality.

Oh,so are you saying that what Jesus did and gave to us at the Last Supper ,was not to be taken as truth only as a symbol of your religious faith. Do you not have the faith to believe in everything Jesus said and did. Would you walk away as so many did that day? Do you believe in the miracle at Cana, if so why not the miracle at the Last Supper?Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

I am always amazed by Catholics who think that I “lost something” when I left the Catholic Church; I did not leave Jesus behind. I confess ALL of my sins to Jesus and know that I am forgiven and cleansed because He died for my sins.

John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

I also did not leave grace behind, since grace comes through faith in Christ. The only thing I left behind are the man made rules of the Catholic Church (and yes, I truly do understand what the Catholic Church teaches). What I gained is a deeper faith in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for my sins. I have also gained a greater desire to submit to his guidance in my life. I have lost nothing and gained everything that matters!

Priscilla, In leaving the Church , you left behind the very center of our Christian worship, The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.Emmanuel, God with us,read and ponder John 6:52-69. Peac, Carlan

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Priscilla, In leaving the Church , you left behind the very center of our Christian worship, The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.Emmanuel, God with us,read and ponder John 6:52-69. Peac, Carlan

I have read and studied ALL of John - Chapter 6 – in fact, the entire New Testament. I would suggest that you do the same.

 

[Bengoshi]

As a matter of a fact, I have. You may not know that I am a convert and these books were like meat and potatoes to me at one time, including all their anti-Catholic rhetoric which kept me out of the Church for years.

Heresy is not fine wine, sir. It is trash, pure and simple, and what I said is considerably tame compared to the reactions of some of the Early Fathers against heresy.

You can say whatever you like, sir. The fact is that in John 5: 28 -29 and Romans 2: 5 -10, it is made quite clear that good works are the basis upon which we will be judged and either given eternal life or eternal death. Please read those verses and think about what is being said there.

Good works are part of the covenant vows we make in baptism, therefore, the doing of good works are not to “prove” to ourselves or others that we have “accepted Jesus”. They are to “keep covenant” with Jesus. If you are not familiar with covenant terms, I suggest you read the book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER by Ray Sutton. He outlines covenant principles very nicely, although he does have certain Calvinist presuppositions in the book which cause him to make erroneous statements from time to time.

Our worship is not about being entertained. You have the traditional American mindset about this. Children learn from what they see. If they see that the Liturgy is important to their parents, they will tune in. I see this quite frequently in our parish.

As for the “presence of God” – are you sure you are not mistaking emotionalism for the presence of God? I was involved for a number of years with Charismania and emotions run away with people and are called “the presence of God”

In other words – been there, done that – reject it all!!!

WEll, I guess I can say the same thing for I am a convert to Evengelicalism as well. I even used to be an altar boy for four years and was a ery religious Catholic. Moreover, I always had excellent grades in our “Religion” and “Christian Living” classes way back in Catholic school. I collected stampitas, brown scapulars, prayer books, and other religious trinkets. However, it is when I got born again that I was able to have a real relationship with God and understood what the Bible really teaches. Right now, I am still continuing my study of Catholicism. I am currently reading CATHOLICISM by Fr. Richard McBrien, the CCC and CFC, and ANSWER TIME by Fr. John Flader, an Opus Dei.

 

[Bengoshi]

With regard to Satanists and Catholics, you simply have no idea what you are saying here. As Christ Himself prayed, Father, they know not what they are doing. May God forgive you.

When Jesus was preaching in the countryside, I suspect that for a 2 year old active child, or a 7 year old, or even a 13 year old, He may well have been boring. Boring is not the reason to keep your child from the very presence of Christ. Indeed, this is a substantial difference between Catholic Christian values, and those of non-Catholics. Jesus said “Do not keep these little ones from me”.

It may well be your common practice to keep Jesus from your children, and even from yourselves, having not the Eucharist. If you had the Eucharist, if you had Christ’s very presence in your midst, you would not be depriving your children of His presence, boring or not. It is not about how I feel or how they feel, it is all about Who He is and His desire to be with me and with my children and grand children.

Gene

Why? What did I say wrong? There was a typo I didn’t notice in my post by the way, I meant "I also know alot of Catholics who are even more eveil than satanists or atheists." I think everyone would agree with me on that. Nobody is perfect of course!

Who says anyone about keeping the children away from Christ? Jesus is also present in the children’s service. It is going down to their level of understanding so that they could appreciate and live out the Gospel better.

I remember when I used to attend mass that there were children who were very noisy (crying, tantrums, playing, talking, etc.) and were very distracting. It disturbs the proceedings. Even as a child, the mass bored me to death! That is why Sunday school/kids church is something the Catholic Church should look into and imitate. There could be a priest who specializes in children’s masses that are appealing to children.

 

[Bengoshi]

I couldn’t disagree more on this point. The Catholic Church might be the only church where kids are able to learn reverence, docility and the ability to simply sit down and listen in the sanctuary. Have you ever paid attention to families at mass? They are able to sit together and worship the Lord together no matter how young they are, with one heart and one spirit, as a FAMILY, attentive and obedient to the whole faith community. It may seem boring to you, but surely you cannot dismiss what we and our children are able to experience interiorly when we worship the Lord together.

I used to be a Catholic child. Most children have no choice but to behave during the mass for fear of their parents’ wrath! But seriously, I highly doubt if the children realy feel God’s presence nor understand what the boring priest is saying. Not all priests are boring preachers, there are some who are not but most are boring. The order of the family sitting together in docility as you say is artificial and merely external.

 

[climer97007]

I am always amazed by Catholics who think that I “lost something” when I left the Catholic Church; I did not leave Jesus behind…

There is nothing really that we can say that will make any difference here. But the Word of God makes ALL the difference.

John 6:28-35
So they said to him, What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’" So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.

John 6:41-71
The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.

Like the unbelieving Jews recorded in this Gospel, you say that this teaching is “Hard to accept”. Like the unbelieving Jews, you packed up your Scriptures and your oppinions, and you left the followers united with Peter in Christ behind to follow someone else with a teaching that was easier to accept.

No amount of pleasant music, lively concerts, tremendous child care, brotherly fellowship, welcoming hospitality, new Bible translations, etc, can make up for this reality. I mean, who would leave Christ for the desert?

Nothing has changed in 2,000 years, because this teaching still is difficult to accept and neither Jesus nor Peter made any effort to go after the unbelievers. Now, this is the only difference in your hearing. We are here witnessing to you and trying to get you back into our midst, but, not unless you too believe that which is hard to accept.

Gene

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

WEll, I guess I can say the same thing for I am a convert to Evengelicalism as well. I even used to be an altar boy for four years and was a ery religious Catholic. Moreover, I always had excellent grades in our “Religion” and “Christian Living” classes way back in Catholic school. I collected stampitas, brown scapulars, prayer books, and other religious trinkets. However, it is when I got born again that I was able to have a real relationship with God and understood what the Bible really teaches. Right now, I am still continuing my study of Catholicism. I am currently reading CATHOLICISM by Fr. Richard McBrien, the CCC and CFC, and ANSWER TIME by Fr. John Flader, an Opus Dei.

Okay. Fair dinkum. At least you are staying connected and you don’t seem to have any real animus.

Just wonder if you have read any Scott Hahn? BTW – which of the many options in Protestantism did you choose to join? And why that one?

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

I used to be a Catholic child. Most children have no choice but to behave during the mass for fear of their parents’ wrath! But seriously, I highly doubt if the children realy feel God’s presence nor understand what the boring priest is saying. Not all priests are boring preachers, there are some who are not but most are boring. The order of the family sitting together in docility as you say is artificial and merely external.

Actually, in the Byzantine Church, the kids can be pretty restless and some are noisy, but we don’t threaten them. They’re kids. + Fr. Mike, our late pastor, used to smile when the kids got particularly loud, which wasn’t really that often.

The Orthodox do it even better. They have no pews, so the kids wander around and interact while the Liturgy is going on.

 

[Bengoshi]

It is not condescending if the person does not understand. I posted a challenge to the poster. I’ll give it to you also.

Give me the five operational principles of a covenant as found in scripture.

If you can’t do it, then you also do not understand a covenant and how it works. That is not a condescending statement. It is a simple and plain fact, said without teeth.

And the fact of the matter is that Protestants DON’T UNDERSTAND!!!

Didn’t you just say in your earlier post that the book on covenant theology you referenced was authored by a Calvinist Protestant?

 

[Bengoshi]

Still waiting for your answer, Bengoshi!

Hold your horses! I only check CAF one a day. What was the question I have not answered again? I have replied to several of your posts that I don’t know which one you are referring to, unless I’ve already answered it…

 

[Bengoshi]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh…I don’t see that he has called me any names ( you know, like “papist fool” “satan’s child” or “demon inspired katlick” — which I used to get over at CARM all the time by the bigots over there) and I don’t think I called him any names (like “prottie fool” or “hellbound heretic” or any such as I have seen from some Catholic Traddies).

We are in a somewhat warm debate, and it could get worse, I suppose, if we let it. I dunno. I guess it bothers me somewhat when I make reading suggestions to people who are violating certain scriptural principles and their response is to basically blow me off.

Nonetheless, I’ll try to take your advice. I can be somewhat intemperate.

Oh, I forgot to thank you for the link to the books you refer to! I appreciate it! I already downloaded some in fact!