Converting 'pro choice' people to the 'pro choices' position

[DanielJohn2300]

It’s not my solution. Over the course of 3 or 4 years, I prayed for the law that would end abortion. Then I received it, and then I cringed at it just like you. Now I’m trying to prove that I did not receive it from God, but every time I try something, it gets quashed.

Here is an example. Right now, my conscience is saying to me, “Daniel, if you go out and commit fornication with a woman and make her pregnant and refuse to pay child support and because of that the taxpayers have to support your child, then don’t you deserve to go to prison with those who don’t pay their taxes?”

 

[OnAJourney]

No. Because fornication isn’t a crime or on par with tax evasion. You’re conflating human life with money, and human life is meant to be a priceless thing

 

[OnAJourney]

The woman is also partially responsible for having sex outside of wedlock. Like it seems your position takes all accountability away from the woman in cases of unwanted pregnancy.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Otherwise, she would be in danger if she wants to bear their child and he does not want to support their child; because in his selfish mind, he would think that she is forcing him into having to pay child support.

But she’s supposed to be safer if the guy knows she can trot over to the government office to report an “unwanted pregnancy”, causing him to be either forced into paying support OR being surgically sterilized??? Is this serious? To me at least, it seems like your proposed plan would make her less safe.

 

[MamaJewel]

People are willing to sacrifice a little privacy as long as they understand that it is necessary for security.

As a person who is in training for a career in health information technology, I respectfully disagree with this statement.

Privacy of one’s health information is very important. Medical confidentiality is a security and a health issue. It’s not like boarding a plane or going to a football game. Trust me on this.

I realize that you are a respectful soul and that you sincerely do your best to avoid judging others. Keeping that in mind, I ask you to realize that pregnancy, in many ways, breaches a woman’s privacy. As her belly swells, people can see she is pregnant and not everyone supports pregnancy. I know many women, some married and some single, who faced scorn, threats against their livelihood, discrimination, and other harsh circumstances because they were pregnant.

We’re human beings and we live by a concept called “social capital”. We judge each other by what we can bring to the table and for many women, a pregnancy can have serious, negative long-term impacts on health, mental well-being, and financial security.

It’s going to take a lot more than a small stipend to get women to change their minds about abortion. In this nation, it will take universal access to effective contraceptives, promotion of effective forms of family awareness methods for conceiving, preventing, and spacing pregnancies, and speaking out against abortion as an acceptable form of birth control.

In addition, the US will need to enact better maternity/family leave laws for parents, offer affordable child care programs, crack down on pregnancy and motherhood discrimination in the work force, and provide better incentives for married couples to have children than the measly tax credits we have now.

And the state doesn’t need to “encourage” anyone who gets pregnant out of wedlock to get married. In the US, getting married because of a pregnancy can later be grounds for an annulment in the catholic church. So we have to tread lightly there.

 

[Peeps]

I disagree with the OP on all counts, especially any kind of forced sterilization. The Church calls sterilization a “grave evil.” and therefore, OP, your “idea” cannot be from God.

I have questions about how a man is supposed to pay “welfare.” Many men don’t have the money to pay for anything (except maybe drugs, and they get that money from some kind of criminal activity, like selling drugs).

Many men live from home to home–they move in with their parents and then get kicked out and so they move in with other relatives until they get kicked out. Or they move in with a a group of their buddies, but that’s not necessarily a good situation since there’s not a lot of space or food, and there are often conflicts over who has paid their share of the rent. OR…they move in with a woman, who is happy to have a man with her even if he doesn’t have a viable job, and if that relationship fails, men move in with another woman–it’s easy for men to find foolish women who welcome them into their place.

Teenagers have little or no money, and its’ extremely difficult for a teenager to find a job in the U.S. today–all the traditional teen jobs (e.g., McDonalds) go to adults who don’t have a high school diploma or who haven’t received any education or vocational training past high school. I think in the case of a teenaged male who owes “Pregnancy Welfare,” it would be his PARENTS who would end up paying, and that would NOT go over well with mature adults who are working and already paying taxes into the system.

 

[TheLittleLady]

the murder of pregnant women

greatest risk for abortion or double murder

Which player in this plan is going to murder pregnant women?

 

[TheLittleLady]

she and their child are also one flesh up until the moment the umbilical cord is cut,

A woman and her baby are two distinct persons, they have separate DNA, they are not “one flesh”. This saga grows curiouser and curiouser.

 

[DanielJohn2300]

The Church calls sterilization a “grave evil.” and therefore, OP, your “idea” cannot be from God.

That’s what I originally thought. But, after further prayer I realized that this is not a proposed church law, but a proposed STATE law. The plea bargain is solely between the state and the criminal. The state could care less if he does a “grave evil” to his body. It only cares about him not causing another unwanted pregnancy. Also, by banking sperm before getting sterilized, he would still be able to have children with a wife through AI if and when he gets married.

With that said, the Church would still advise him to refuse the plea bargain, serve his time in prison, and then sin no more; but the Church could not stop the state from offering him the plea bargain any more than the Church could stop the state from legalizing vasectomy in the first place. If God gave the state the power to crucify his own Son (John 19v11), then God would certainly give the state the power to offer this plea bargain to a criminal, especially if it prevents him from causing a future abortion. Thanks for the comment.

 

[DanielJohn2300]

Thank you for your reply. I needed a few days to pray over this one. If a ‘pro choice’ man causes an unwanted pregnancy, then the woman is in danger of being threatened to get an abortion or killed for not getting one. But if the ‘pro choices’ law is not careful in its attempt to diffuse the situation, then it can actually end up increasing the danger she is already under. So, your point it well taken.

It would have to be required for her to report the unwanted pregnancy before she could get a legal abortion. That way the state would have a chance to tell her that it will give her the money she needs if she bears the child, while telling him that, regardless of whether or not she gets an abortion, one of two things will be due on the due date, either his first payment into the welfare system or a note from his doctor indicating that he has gotten the vasectomy. Also, for her own safety, she would need to report the unwanted pregnancy to the state BEFORE she tells the father of the child about it. Otherwise, there is danger of him telling her to not report it to the state and to get an illegal abortion.

The ‘pro choices’ law is about honorable men holding dishonorable men accountable for causing an unwanted pregnancy, but we have to be careful that we do not make a bad situation worse. So, thanks again for your reply. God bless you.

 

[DanielJohn2300]

Thank you for your reply. I had to pray some more about it. I don’t think your concern requires the ‘pro choices’ plan to be scrapped, but it certainly requires the plan to be tweaked. Here’s how.

The ‘pro choices’ law would have to respect the privacy of the man and the woman, by keeping the unwanted pregnancy private between the state, the man, and the woman. She would need to report the unwanted pregnancy to the state before she could get a legal abortion. That way, the state would have a chance to tell her that it will give her the money she needs if she bears the child, while telling him that, regardless of whether or not she gets an abortion, one of two things is due from him on the due date, either his first payment into the welfare system or a note from his doctor indicating that he has gotten a vasectomy. The doctor would recommend to him that he bank some sperm before the procedure, so that he can still have children with a wife through AI whenever he marries. (Planned Parenthood would probably want to get into the vasectomy and sperm banking business, since the demand for that would go up while the demand for abortion would go down).

Also, for the woman’s own safety, she needs to report an unwanted pregnancy to the state BEFORE she tells the man about it. Otherwise, there is danger of him telling her to not report it and to get an illegal abortion. The ‘pro choices’ law is about honorable men holding dishonorable men accountable for causing an unwanted pregnancy, but we have to be careful to respect every person’s right to privacy. So, thanks again for your reply; and God bless you.

 

[DanielJohn2300]

Curiouser indeed. Lol. The two closest bonds in human relationships happen to be the result of two becoming one flesh, though separate in DNA as you point out. One is the bond between husband and wife, and the other is the bond between mother and child. Also, both bonds happen to be a picture of Christ’s relationship with the church. As St. Paul indicates, the husband’s relationship with his wife is a picture of Christ’s relationship with his church (Eph 5:25-33); and it just so happens that the mother’s relationship with her unborn child is a different picture of Christ’s relationship with his church, because the unborn child draws the breath of physical life (oxygen) through the body and blood of the mother, just as the church draws the breath of Spiritual life (the Holy Spirit) through the body and blood of Christ. This is pretty awesome stuff if you think about it. God bless you.

PS. I just noticed your other question. The double homicide danger is present when the man causes an unwanted pregnancy, and she wants to bear the child, and he does not want to support a child. In his selfish mind, she is forcing him into having to pay child support, and this could cause him to explode into a murderous rage. This is why the leading cause of death among unwed pregnant women is for them to be killed by the father of her child. In case you are interested, we have a prayer list for these victims of double homicide on our ProChoices.us website.

 

[Peeps]

No, we still can’t advocate for The State (our country) to pass unjust laws. If the laws are passed above our protests, then we are obligated to continue to protest.

And God giving Jesus over to the criminals to bring about His Perfect Will is much different than God giving the State the power to do wrong. God has a better plan for men who have made women pregnant and it does not involve compounding their sin by adding another sin.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Would you point me to the Scripture or to the official Church Teaching that a mother and her unborn child are “one flesh”?

Also, to the pregnant mother as a type of Christ and the Church. From my decades of Study, Baptism is what brings a human person into the Church. That Baptism is spoken of as birth into the Body of Christ.

I have never seen the Church referred to or symbolized by a fetus.

he does not want to support a child. In his selfish mind, she is forcing him into having to pay child support, and this could cause him to explode into a murderous rage. This is why the leading cause of death among unwed pregnant women is for them to be killed by the father of her child.

Would you show me the studies the percentage of men kill their pregnant partner over child support?

My gut feeling is that you feel that abortion is all about child support.

 

[DanielJohn2300]

Would you point me to the Scripture or to the official Church Teaching that a mother and her unborn child are “one flesh”?

I didn’t learn about the mother and unborn child being one flesh from scripture or tradition. I learned it from my embryology studies. Blood cells do not form until the embryo has implanted in the womb (ie. when the flesh of the mother and the flesh of the child become one flesh). So before implantation, the embryo is flesh only; and after implantation the embryo is both flesh and blood.

The bad news is that even the earliest abortions happen after implantation; and therefore, every abortion constitutes the shedding of innocent blood. That’s demonic, because it’s innocent blood being shed, not unto remission of sins, but unto demons (see Psalms 106:37, 1Cor 10:20). That’s why I asked God for the law that would end abortion, and why I asked Mary to ask God too.

Getting back to the embryo, scripture says, “the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev 17:11). The breath of physical life (oxygen) goes from the mother’s blood to the placenta to the embryo’s blood, and those blood cells only use a tiny fraction of the oxygen. They give the rest of the oxygen to the cells of the flesh, which use all of the oxygen. I thought it was cool, because the embryo starts drawing the breath of physical life through the body and blood of the mother, just as we start drawing the breath of Spiritual life through the body and blood of Christ.

Also, to the pregnant mother as a type of Christ and the Church. From my decades of Study, Baptism is what brings a human person into the Church. That Baptism is spoken of as birth into the Body of Christ.

I have never seen the Church referred to or symbolized by a fetus.

I agree with you (and the church) about baptism. I believe that is the moment when individual members of the church start drawing the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38) through the body and blood of Christ, being that baptism would have no effect if Jesus had not died for our sins (ie. his blood being shed for us and his body being broken for us). Just as every cell of the human body is a microcosm of the body as a whole (the cells getting oxygen from the blood and the body getting oxygen from the air), every member of the church is a microcosm of the church as a whole.

 

[DanielJohn2300]

Would you show me the studies the percentage of men kill their pregnant partner over child support?

My gut feeling is that you feel that abortion is all about child support.

I googled multiple studies. None of them break down the reason for the double homicide, and none of them break it down between married and unmarried women. From what I found, I have over 90% of the double homicide victims being unmarried women, about 50% of all pregnancies being outside marriage, and about 20% of all pregnant female deaths being by homicide. Doing the math on those numbers reveal that about 4% of pregnant married female deaths are by homicide, and about 36% of pregnant unmarried female deaths are by homicide.

So, it’s safe to say that the leading cause of death among pregnant unmarried female deaths are by homicide. I have found that at least 80% of those homicides are by the father of the child. So, about 30% of pregnant unmarried female deaths are by homicide at the hands of her child’s father (or a hit man hired by her child’s father). The murder motive is the thought that she is forcing him into fatherhood. I have always assumed that the primary factor, in the murder motive, is (in his mind) her forcing him into having to spend his hard earned money to pay child support. Do you think it is something else?

 

[DanielJohn2300]

I don’t see the ‘pro choices’ law being unjust to anyone. A vasectomy is sinful, but it is also legal. The state can accept anything that is legal as a plea bargain to avoid having to put a criminal in prison. Under the ‘pro choices’ law, the church would counsel the criminal to refuse the plea bargain (since it is sinful), serve the prison sentence, and then sin no more. But the criminal would not be obliged to accept the church’s counsel, because we are not a theocracy; and besides, God does not force his will on people.

Since my last post, I have been given confirmation that the ‘pro choices’ law is from God. It is the fact that the ‘pro choices’ law, if passed, would be a fulfillment of Hebrews 13:4, because God would be judging “whoremongers and adulterers” (men who cause unwanted pregnancies) by giving the ‘pro choices’ law to a catholic to give to the state. If I wasn’t supposed to give it to the state, then it’s too late; I’ve already given it to my ‘pro choice’ representatives. If you are ‘pro life’, then you are okay. But if you are ‘pro choice’ then you ought not resist the conversion of the current ‘pro choice’ law to the ‘pro choices’ law; otherwise, you would be obstructing God’s justice. It is only in countries where the ‘pro life’ law is the status quo that it would be incumbent on ‘pro life’ people to change the status quo, and in that case, it would be from the ‘pro life’ law to the ‘pro lives’ law. Otherwise, it is inevitable that the ‘pro life’ law would eventually become ‘pro choice’ at some point, as we saw with Ireland. I added the conversion of ‘pro life’ to ‘pro lives’ to the ProChoices.us website in Figure 5.

Have you ever seen a country convert its law from the ‘pro choice’ law to the ‘pro life’ law? I’m beginning to wonder if that is even possible.

 

[TheLittleLady]

. A vasectomy is sinful, but it is also legal

Direct abortion is sinful, but it is also legal in the US.

I didn’t learn about the mother and unborn child being one flesh from scripture or tradition. I learned it from my embryology studies. Blood cells do not form until the embryo has implanted in the womb (ie. when the flesh of the mother and the flesh of the child become one flesh). So before implantation, the embryo is flesh only; and after implantation the embryo is both flesh and blood.

The child and mother, at every stage, are two distinct separate human beings. The argument you make above has been used by the pro-choice apologists “during pregnancy, the fetus is nothing more than part of the woman’s body. She can do with this as she sees fit.”

therefore, every abortion constitutes the shedding of innocent blood. That’s demonic, because it’s innocent blood being shed, not unto remission of sins, but unto demons (see Psalms 106:37, 1Cor 10:20).

Miscarriage also sheds innocent blood, I’m certain you do not want to accuse women of demonic sin when they miscarry, right?

There is a desire to let go our own personal responsibility for sin by saying that the devil or a demon made me do it. Be careful that your platform does not give credit to devils/demons what is done by pure broken human choices.

Have you ever seen a country convert its law from the ‘pro choice’ law to the ‘pro life’ law? I’m beginning to wonder if that is even possible.

In the US, states have enacted abortion restrictions and then eased restrictions as the political climate changes.