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RomanCath379
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They took it from Scripture.
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Anna_Scott
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Javl,Anna:
As the saying goes “Once burned, twice shy”. I see and understand your position. I would do the same if I were in your place.I can only say pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and wisdom to discern the truth. If you put your trust in Him you cannot go wrong in any of your endeavors or decisions.
And yes, many of our daily, selfish actions do in a way reject Christ, but he is always there with open arms to forgive us, no matter how many times we do so. As long as we trust in Him we should have no fear. But those who do reject Him outright by leaving Christianity for another faith do put their souls in danger and should realize what the consequences of such an action will be. You are in my prayers. God bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Thank you for the words of encouragement. I keep praying and studying.
Anna
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Frost
Guest
God is the judge of man, so we can never know for sure what happens to individuals. What we know is that whoever rejects Christ is condemned.When a Christian converts to another faith, such a Islam, Judaism, etc., in effect he/she is rejecting Christ. In your opinion, is salvation still possible for that person, or has that person condemned him/her self to hell, or…?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Converts to Islam/other religions do not, of course, share this view. From their point of view, they have gained salvation through their newfound faith. The question of salvation/condemnation therefore becomes hopeless to discuss.
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Byzantine_Wolf
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Quote it then.
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dzheremi
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Well, I don’t want to wait until I’m almost dead to find out if that’s true, and I don’t think anyone else should take that chance, either. What if the religious you spoke to is wrong? Why take the risk? What possible reason could there be for NOT following God from the beginning?
A reminder of what is really important: “After Death” (A sermon by H.H. Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Orthodox Church)
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RomanCath379
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An ignorance of Scripture, no direction, knowing nothing about Christ unintentionally. These are the ones who are given a chance at their time of death. God is a merciful God and will give you one last chance.
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Byzantine_Wolf
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RomanCath379, you mentioned that your spiritual guide quoted scripture to prove your point. I asked:
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dzheremi
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I’m sorry, I should have made it more clear that I wrote my post in the context of this thread, which is about Christians converting to another religion, not people who are born in another religion or have some other reasons which might explain their rejection of Christ.
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RomanCath379
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No I won’t. You sound arrogant, therefore you can do the work and look it up.
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cheese_sdc
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Are you God?
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Siddhartha
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Au contraire. Just to stay among the Hindus, many Hindus venerate Jesus as an avatar.
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schaick
Guest
This was actually posted on another thread but works here too:
GOD [holy and just] must to be just demand that sin be punished and debt repayed. Jesus has done that for all of us, all sinners. If you deny that Jesus was crucified for you then you can only be judged by what you have done and what is on your heart.
Those accepting Jesus and the Gift of Grace will have Jesus with them.
Most people today atheist, Budhists, Sihks, etc. understand the crucifixion and why it was done. Muslims deny the crucifixion completely.
I am a trinitarian Christian but have come to believe [after having spoken with many people from many religions] that denying the crucifixion is worse then denying that Jesus is GOD.
Even if Jesus were mere man, He was still chosen by GOD to sacrifice Himself for the good of all mankind. Even if He was mere man He was the perfect sinless man. Jesus believed completely that He/the shephard was laying His life down for His sheep/followers.
Denying the crucifixion is denying a historical fact and there is only one being behind that and that is the devil/satan.
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Hesychios
Guest
This is nothing new.
Jesus was believed to be a god by some pagans of the first centuries too. (Supposedly there was a statue of Jesus in the Parthenon when it was a Roman temple.) The difference is that these people were polytheists (thus, more gods is a good thing), and Apostolic Christianity is firmly rooted in Jewish monotheism.
Jesus was a Jew, preaching to Jews. All of the Apostles were Jews, and the scriptures of the Hebrews are still important to Christians. There is just no place for any other deities alongside God.
Apostolic Christianity demands exclusive devotion to the one God, not even admitting the existence of any other.
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Siddhartha
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Romans were polytheists, but Hindus are not.
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Tradycja
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Funny how this topic ALWAYS comes up. How about an answer from the Council of Florence?
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Oh and by the way for those of you who (erroneously) argue that this Dogma is ONLY directed to those who are already Catholic (and not to everyone) and is an exhortation for Catholics that they don’t leave, well, the topic of this thread is concerning a person in this EXACT category.
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Oh and by the way for those of you who (erroneously) argue that this Dogma is ONLY directed to those who are already Catholic (and not to everyone) and is an exhortation for Catholics that they don’t leave, well, the topic of this thread is concerning a person in this EXACT category.
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GraceDK
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Dear brother.When a Christian converts to another faith, such a Islam, Judaism, etc., in effect he/she is rejecting Christ. In your opinion, is salvation still possible for that person, or has that person condemned him/her self to hell, or…?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Shalom be with you too.
It’s not a question about Christianity, Judaism or Islam.
It’s a question about Yeshua the Messiah. The Bible tells us Jesus is the only Name given to man by which he can be saved.
Why is that?
The Old Testament speaks about a line of covenants and about the sacrifices needed and the Temple instituted in order to bring atonement and peace to the chosen people who were to bring salvation and knowlege of the Living God to all of humanity.
Some strong points to highlight in the Torah and prophets/ typology from the Old to the New Testament:
The promise in Genesis: There will be enmity between the woman and the snake(satan) and her offspring will crush the head of the snake.
Abraham: Isaac, the only beloved son carrying the wood of sacrifice to Moriah. Abrahams obedience.
Exodus: The Blood of the Lamb on the wood of the doors of the Hebrews. Israel led out of slavery.
Isaiah’s chapter 53 Prophesy about the suffering servant, killed for our transgressions.
Zachariah 12:9-10 about the Lord, the first-born, being pierced.
We see in the OT a covenant history that shows a broken realitionship (because of the fall) between God and man, a relationship that cannot be restored through man’s effort alone. he breaks covenant after covenant… It’s the slow and painful death of the human attempt to save one self…
Then the Messiah comes at the appointed time (according to Daniel and to the old Jewish tradition) and He fullfills the law and the prophets, the Son of God, the only Perfect Sacrifice dying on the wood of the cross bearing all our sins. And when you read the New Testament something resounds in your heart. Christ alone teaches man the fullness about himself, his worth, dignity and purpose.
Do not play with salvation. You cannot save your self. Its so easy for man to destroy things that he cannot built up himself… both in his own life and in that of others. Ask the Good Lord to show you the truth about Jesus from Nazareth. If you ask in honestly and sincerety God will answer you.
Peace be with you and your house.
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GraceDK
Guest
We can hope that, but since Christ preached repentance from sin and He did bear the attrocity of sin on the Cross we can know that its urgent that we repent in this life and accept Him as our saviour.
We may have a personal belief that (some)people get a chance at the moment of death to choose Christ, but it’s dangerous to spread this assumption that might make people slumber even more than they already do. Remember the parables about the wedding girls?
If you live without God in practical atheism then it will be ever more difficult to see the truth and admit it, even at the moment of death. Besides, the ones who live to tell are only the ones that survived and were indeed given a second chance.
Peace
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Anna_Scott
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In forum discussions, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.
I would like to know your sources, as well.Javl asks an important question regarding converting to other faiths. We all know that salvation is through Christ. I don’t see Javl’s question as “playing with salvation.”
There are many issues related to converting to other faiths. Can we come back to Christ? Is there a point of no return? What are the spiritual consequences, even if we do return?
How does God view our choices? Will a Christian be judged more strictly, if he/she converts to Judaism (which involves renouncing Christ,) than a Jew who does not acknowledge Christ?
Javl asks a very profound question.
Anna
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jlhargus
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JL: I enjoyed your post, I think you would be a great Catholic. I will pray for you.
[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]
Paul is addressing a Hebrew Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.
Paul warns BELIEVERS, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those ONCE Christian Hebrews, who LEFT fell away from the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, thereby loosing the indwelling Holy Spirit, returning to Judaism placing their faith in circumcision and animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance taking away sin.
It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. [Mk3:28 Verily I say unto you, ALL SINS SHALL BE FORGIVEN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 BUT he that shall BLASPHEME AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST HATH NEVER FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation.] Blasphemy against the Holy Spriit is basically resisting and rejecting every grace to repent. Yet Hb3:29 says, IS IN DANGER OF ETERNAL DAMNATION, not domed to damnation. So there is still hope till one is actually dead.
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Byzantine_Wolf
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As Anna Scott said (thanks, Anna!) when a statement is made - especially one strongly opposed to the point being made - the burden of proving the point is on the person making it.
Therefore, if you want to make a case and state you have evidence for it, please bring it forward. I have done the work, and I can cite scripture to state my case - I only ask you to do the same.
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