Converting to Catholicism and capital punishment

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can one convert while supporting the death penalty? I am aware of the arguments for and against it and am not interested in debating it but was wondering if this would be viewed on the same level as abortion by the Church?
 
simspt said:
…was wondering if this would be viewed on the same level as abortion by the Church?
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No.
Death penalty is allowed. E.g. In Malaysia and Singapore, drug traffickers are subjected to death penalty.
Every intended abortion is rejected by the Church.
 
Eric_Peter said:
No.
Death penalty is allowed. E.g. In Malaysia and Singapore, drug traffickers are subjected to death penalty.
Every intended abortion is rejected by the Church.
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I mostly agree however the teaching does impose limits on when capital punishment is acceptable. However it is clear capital punishment is allowed. BTW - I am against use of capital punishment.
 
Well no one is going to go down a checklist to confirm your beliefs before converting, but I think the better question should be SHOULD you convert if you cannot accept Church teaching. I know what you are going through, this was one issue I had real trouble to understand. But I prayed for the ability to understand better and eventually understood Church teaching. I still have the natural urge towards wanting the death penalty to be used, but I stop myself b/c I know I must obey Christ’s commands. The Church (which we are part of) has been ordered by Jesus to evangelize to everyone, especially the sinners. We have also been told that God wants ALL men to be saved.

Something that may help you is to remember that for EVERYONE there is a couple (at least) Church teachings they struggle with and must work every day to conform themselves to God’s commands through the Church.
 
simspt said:
can one convert while supporting the death penalty? I am aware of the arguments for and against it and am not interested in debating it but was wondering if this would be viewed on the same level as abortion by the Church?
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yes, there very very limited circumstances where execution can be the most safe option for the protection of other human beings (and therefore acceptable), but with our ability to contain criminals here in the US it is a practice that should never EVER be done, save for (if we catch him) (and this is my opinion so bear with me) Osama bin Ladan, because i think that having him here in the US alive would cause the terrorists to want to and attempt to attack us more thereby causing death.
 
zz912 said:
Well no one is going to go down a checklist to confirm your beliefs before converting, but I think the better question should be SHOULD you convert if you cannot accept Church teaching. I know what you are going through, this was one issue I had real trouble to understand. But I prayed for the ability to understand better and eventually understood Church teaching. I still have the natural urge towards wanting the death penalty to be used, but I stop myself b/c I know I must obey Christ’s commands. The Church (which we are part of) has been ordered by Jesus to evangelize to everyone, especially the sinners. We have also been told that God wants ALL men to be saved.

Something that may help you is to remember that for EVERYONE there is a couple (at least) Church teachings they struggle with and must work every day to conform themselves to God’s commands through the Church.
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I cant imagine the Church accepting one who denies the bodily resurrection or deity of Christ. Obviously there are other Church teachings that seem to have more ambiguity in relation to permissable disagreement. Again, Im not interested in debating the arguments for or against capital punishment (been there done that) but rather the Church’s position on allowing converts who in good conscience defend the death penalty.
 
What r the formal documents by the Church on capital punishment??
 
Death penalty is not in the same league with abortion, according to Catholic teaching. Abortion, artificial birth control, euthanasia etc. are “intrinsic evils” meaning that they are ALWAYS evil, under no circumstances are they permissible. Capital punishment, war, and killing another person in self-defense, on the other hand, are not intrinsic evils and can be morally justified under grave circumstances.

Some 20 years ago (December 1989) in Romania, when the people rose up and took to the streets to overthrow the Communist regime, the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife were captured, sentenced to death, and quickly executed by a military firing squad. It was absolutely necessary. Ceausescu’s oppressive regime was set up much like Ahmadinejad’s regime in Iran today, and his henchmen loyal to him perpetrated a great bloodbath among the unarmed civilian protesters, as well as shot military officers and soldiers who sided with the people against the regime. The country was on the verge of descending into civil war, with a larger part of the military on the people’s side and refusing to shoot civilians, and with Ceausescu’s special (elite) units ruthlessly killing civilians and peace-minded military people. The only way to stop the bloodbath was to quickly “decapitate” Ceausescu’s regime, by sentencing and executing both Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife Elena (they were both tyrants who controlled the regime with an iron fist).
 
This is something Cardinal Ratzinger said about it.

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.”

“While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

Cardinal Ratzinger - Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion- General Principles - (L’espresso, June 2004)

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6041
 
WestonGrant said:
This is something Cardinal Ratzinger said about it.

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.”

“While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

Cardinal Ratzinger - Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion- General Principles - (L’espresso, June 2004)

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6041
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thanks for the link.
 
Catholics are free to differ regarding the death penalty. No worries 🙂
 
One can support the death penalty and still be a Catholic in good standing. Catholic teaching actually says that the lawful authority, the state (not vigilante individuals), has the right to impose the death penalty if it is done so in a just manner. However, basic Catholic doctrine calls on us to have compassion and be merciful to even the worst of sinners, just as Jesus has given us His Divine Mercy. But if the lawful authority deems it necessary, it is not intrinsically immoral like abortion. One may *never *support the death penalty because they want vengeance. Death penalty is *not *acceptable as a means of revenge, but only as a means of protecting innocent civilians from being hurt.
 
I haven’t completely tested this thought out, but I used to hold out “capital punishment” as an exception that I somehow reconciled with my Catholic Faith.

If one considers it part/parcel as a means that society has to protect itself…as with just war…it’s possible to remain consistent with Catholic Teaching.

In the United States, capital punishment cannot be at this time held as a last resort to protect society. We have the money to lock away these people, to protect society, but our will doesn’t reinforce this tactic.

So in principle, it’s still morally possible for the US to one day need to resort to capital punishment, but it’s not at this point practically called for.

Were we we to go ‘anarchic’ we conceivably may need to engage in capital punishment again, but that’s a long way off.

So, the principle remains but in practice it’s not a ast resort.

Does this thinking fall apart?
 
Edward_H said:
I haven’t completely tested this thought out, but I used to hold out “capital punishment” as an exception that I somehow reconciled with my Catholic Faith.

If one considers it part/parcel as a means that society has to protect itself…as with just war…it’s possible to remain consistent with Catholic Teaching.

In the United States, capital punishment cannot be at this time held as a last resort to protect society. We have the money to lock away these people, to protect society, but our will doesn’t reinforce this tactic.

So in principle, it’s still morally possible for the US to one day need to resort to capital punishment, but it’s not at this point practically called for.

Were we we to go ‘anarchic’ we conceivably may need to engage in capital punishment again, but that’s a long way off.

So, the principle remains but in practice it’s not a ast resort.

Does this thinking fall apart?
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It does fall apart because we don’t have the money to lock up offenders for life in gated criminal communities wherein prisoners brutalize each other and harden their criminal lifestyles, bringing oftentimes worse evil back into the world than they brought into the joint.

Prisons don’t reform; it’s a rare individual who does come out of the hole a changed man. Most come out even worse, which is why gang activity flourishes behind bars - some gangs even operate solely in prisons, such as the *Sindicato Nuevo Mexico *in New Mexico. If rehabilitation was what happened, there would be no prison gangs but instead men’s Catholic groups where inmates learned how to grow closer to the Lord and be decent citizens upon release.
If the US were to go “anarchic”, the prisons would empty and we’d have a much worse problem on our hands than being able to sit back and calmly decide whether or not hardened, violent criminals should be indefinitely housed on the taxpayer’s dime. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure; give even the worst criminals a chance to repent but when they demonstrate that’s not what they intend to do, eliminate the threat - innocent society demands better than what it gets, today.
 
This is helpful food for me to think through.

I do know that we probably spend far far more on Doritos and porn than we do on capital case prisoners. So I will have to think about the money argument more and whether it’s truly a pivotal factor. At this point, it seems that it’s a prioritization of resources question and less so a “no other option / last resort” issue. And there’s also the whole parallel endless appeals / game the game process that makes it seem like we have no other choice than to take more life.

I had a close personal friend in college who was kidnapped, raped, murdered, burned…and I used to be a “pull the switch” guy.

As perhaps a bad example, to care/feed/house Marine recruits (feed, shelter, control, train) isn’t all that expensive on a per person basis. And I think we have far far more recruits than death row inmates.

Our goals would seem to be to protect people and to save the souls of prisoners.

Mainstreaming all/many/most criminals back into the civilian population may seem like a laudable/reachable goal, but I don’t think that goal has been debated in a deep, tough minded fashion in a very long time. So I’d like to see that sort of debate, structured around real options.

We’ve sort of bought into the “mainstream as the logical/humane goal” line of thinking.

But prisoners can still serve man and God from prison and lead a life of enormous heroic virtue. “Rebooting” them into society isn’t perhaps realistic, but we seem to live as though it might be. Killing them isn’t our only other option.

Our society, because it has lost its supernatural outlook, has 'run out of options" so it straddles badly the middle ground.

We should put no permanent barriers to reconciliation (as we do with "remarriage after divorce) when we do capital punishment. One of the reasons why the Church doesn’t support remarriage after divorce is it places a real barrier to eventual reconciliation.

You’ve got me thinking.
 
simspt said:
can one convert while supporting the death penalty? I am aware of the arguments for and against it and am not interested in debating it but was wondering if this would be viewed on the same level as abortion by the Church?
Click to expand...
I am sure someone will give the relevant catechism sections. The CAtholic Church does not require an absolute rejection of the death penalty, nor of just war for that matter.
 
puzzleannie said:
I am sure someone will give the relevant catechism sections. The CAtholic Church does not require an absolute rejection of the death penalty, nor of just war for that matter.
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2266 and 2267

However, I think the biggest issue is that one simply is not obligated to believe everything the Church teaches. Rather, one has, in accord to conscience the following obligations.
  1. To accept what the Church has defined as dogma (the big stuff) with Catholic faith. In other words, because one accepts the authority of the Catholic Church, one accepts what the Church has defined 100%.
  2. To try to understand the mind of the Church when one disagrees with other areas of teaching. This means one needs to form one’s conscience in areas of dissent and accept the fact you may be wrong. This is process I am at on capital punishment, and may be my whole life.
 
VetA said:
yes, there very very limited circumstances where execution can be the most safe option for the protection of other human beings (and therefore acceptable), but with our ability to contain criminals here in the US it is a practice that should never EVER be done, save for (if we catch him) (and this is my opinion so bear with me) Osama bin Ladan, because i think that having him here in the US alive would cause the terrorists to want to and attempt to attack us more thereby causing death.
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Ability to “contain” is very often not good enough.
Many prisoners are killed by prisoners because they have “nothing to lose”.
Prison GUARDS are killed by prisoners because they have “nothing to lose”

Death penalty would prevent this.

I’m not for it (as a rule) but when/if a person is dangerous, has no regard for human life and may kill again, yes,… death penalty.
 
pnewton said:
2266 and 2267

However, I think the biggest issue is that one simply is not obligated to believe everything the Church teaches. Rather, one has, in accord to conscience the following obligations.
  1. To accept what the Church has defined as dogma (the big stuff) with Catholic faith. In other words, because one accepts the authority of the Catholic Church, one accepts what the Church has defined 100%.
  2. To try to understand the mind of the Church when one disagrees with other areas of teaching. This means one needs to form one’s conscience in areas of dissent and accept the fact you may be wrong. This is process I am at on capital punishment, and may be my whole life.
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Scripture states that we are “to be of one mind” - that inclludes EVERYTHING the Church teaches. = you are to conform your mind to that of the Church.
 
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