Converting to Catholicism (background; small details)

[James83]

Hello all (my first post). And happy new year to everyone.

For the past few years I’ve been away from Church (Baptist) due to what it has become - particularly its indulgence/lack of focus on the Word. Not away from the Bible - but certainly distant from organized religion., for a number of reasons RE Baptist faith/Protestantism:

• 30-45 minutes of ‘worship’, with almost zero content thereafter. This ‘worship’ is very impure, and, frankly, driven by money. Baptist faith has been overtaken by the likes of Lentz etc and their mass-marketing/commodotization of religion as yet another product to be purchased
• Sermons/content thereafter is more akin to pop psychology with the occasional ‘God’ reference thrown in (tangentially) for reference/assurance
• Bible study is almost zero, with focus on ‘feeling good’ given #1 priority

Plus many other issues.

In reading the Bible and looking at contemporary ‘Christianity’, I only see dichotomy.

Something I’ve found particularly disturbing - and I admit in advance, the issue is possibly ‘sensitive’ - is the Baptist focus on Christian Zionism/continual talk of helping Israel - when our own communities are in need of serious help - financially and spiritually.

Any insight RE the above appreciated in advance. Of course, I’m looking at Catholicism not only as a reaction to negative experiences with other faiths (very much a wrong reason for conversion) - but the above are, for sure, some of the reasons for my doubts towards Baptist etc.

Thanks/regards

 

[Dlee]

I can appreciate your frustration. Same thing happened with me - all the focus was on worship which meant being entertained by the “worship team.” I didn’t like the irreverence that I saw in the sanctuary (not Catholic sanctuary) - running, talking, drinking coffee, going in and out for refills, minister’s wife part of of the worship team was on the platform in a backless halter dress. Again, these were not the reasons for my conversion, but they led me to realize that this was not where I wanted to be. I began searching and found the Catholic Church. I notice that many Baptists have converted in my time here.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Something I’ve found particularly disturbing - and I admit in advance, the issue is possibly ‘sensitive’ - is the Baptist focus on Christian Zionism/continual talk of helping Israel -

We believe the Catholic Church is the new Israel, the transfigured body of Christ. When we pray for Israel, we’re praying for the Church. God’s living stones.

Bible study is almost zero, with focus on ‘feeling good’ given #1 priority

You should probably go to YouTube & watch Daily Mass. May give you an idea what to expect on Sundays.

 

[James83]

Thanks Justin_Mary. Good answers. Very useful (listening to the 30th Dec. Mass just now).

I didn’t know that RE the Catholic view of the new Israel. As such, what is the Catholic view of what is politically known as Israel - and what is the view of the things I mentioned in relation to Baptists? I appreciate the answer will vary slightly for everyone, but I’m curious if there are some points agreed upon in general.

Again, I realise the above is slightly controversial for an early post, but when leaving Baptist behind, matters of faith aside, the biggest reason was the general feeling of ‘are we more focused on sending money to Israel/praising Israel than we are on helping the very people around us?’

When I raised the issue, it was met with the stock ‘anti-semite’ response - when the concern was very genuine.

Apparently within the Baptist faith there are certain issues that simply can’t be discussed - so, thanks for the reply.

 

[Justin_Mary]

As such, what is the Catholic view of what is politically known as Israel

I don’t know.

particularly its indulgence/lack of focus on the Word. Not away from the Bible - but certainly distant from organized religion.,

Can you rephrase this? I don’t understand what you are saying.

30-45 minutes of ‘worship’, with almost zero content thereafter. This ‘worship’ is very impure, and, frankly, driven by money.

I would bet your idea of pure worship & my idea of pure worship are different. I’ve never seen Baptist service as worship.

Sermons/content thereafter is more akin to pop psychology with the occasional ‘God’ reference thrown in (tangentially) for reference/assurance

We don’t really have “sermons” more like reflections.

Bible study is almost zero, with focus on ‘feeling good’ given #1 priority

I’m blessed. In my parish there are at least three bible study groups going on right now. From what I hear in many parishes if you want a bible study you’ll have to start one.

Which I’ll say is a peeve of mine. More & more Catholics are “focusing” on bible study. Which… I don’t know how to say it. Living the Gospel is our call.

 

[Michael16]

Personally, @James83

I don’t like the Protestant focus on sermons. They’re interesting, no doubt; and I’ve heard good sermons from Protestants. To me, the focus should be on Jesus and building me up to live the Gospel and my Baptismal vows.

It should be about getting to heaven and helping others to get there too.

I’ve never been keen on “ worship services “ that seem to be more entertainment that reverently honoring and adoring God.

 

[James83]

Apologies, I don’t know how to quote. I’ll write your quotes below, and reply:

Can you rephrase this? I don’t understand what you are saying.
What I mean is the music is indulgent in the sense that it appears to be more focused on selling albums in the bookstore at the back of the hall. There is also a distinct element of narcissism to it - not to mention how the worship team (those on stage in general) can be harnessed in communicating what it means ‘to be a Christian’ i.e manner of dress, general manner of being etc.
God appears to come last in the worship.
I admit I’m possibly completely misunderstanding the Baptist faith, and therein could lie the problem.

Lack of focus on the Word: as said i.e sermons, in general, had more resemblance to pop psychology/self-help videos on YouTube than to the Bible.

The general path of Baptist sermons came across as pop psychology bookended with ‘Jesus said’.

I agree with you RE Bible study not being the focus. But reading/having read the Bible surely helps, and it isn’t simply a case of Bible study vs. living the Gospel? Otherwise there would be no doctrinal differences (which must arise as a product of Bible study)? I enjoy reading/studying the Bible - and can do so at times when I couldn’t necessarily live the Gospel i.e read the Bible for an hour before bed etc.

At Church, I was amazed at how many hadn’t read the Bible. In most cases it certainly isn’t for lack of time i.e most of us have an hour or two each night when we could read the Bible rather than watching the latest TV show? It surely speaks more of priority?

I personally had difficulty attending services almost devoid of Biblical content.

Again, perhaps I completely misinterpreted Baptist faith.

Thanks again

 

[Michael16]

Personally, @James83

What you’re describing sounds like a horror story and parody of what a Christian community should be like.

I’ve never been to a Baptist service. I’ve been to Methodist and ELCA.

The ELCA service is basically a severely watered down Mass.

 

[James83]

Thanks Michael, reply appreciated.

Now you have a little RE my background/general concerns with the Baptist faith, perhaps some (name removed by moderator)ut/views could be provided with regards the current Pope? From what I’ve read, opinion is divided. But this could be more a case of media than reality.

From the outside, it appears that the Catholic Church is divided with respect certain positions in relation to the current Pope i.e gay marriage etc.

Would this be accurate?

Thanks

 

[Michael16]

@James83,

As far as gay “ marriage “? No. There’s no issue with the Holy Father. The main issues, if I’m not mistaken; is Amoris Laetitia ( Allowing civilly remarried but not annulled Catholics to receive Communion) and I’m not sure what else at the moment.

 

[James83]

Thanks. From your reply, do you mean gay marriage isn’t marriage?

Is it something the Catholic Church approves of? From my readings of the Bible, it is unbiblical.

Aside from the doctrinal issue you mention, the Church is quite unified?

Thanks

 

[thelibrarian]

Thanks. From your reply, do you mean gay marriage isn’t marriage?

A gay marriage is an invalid marriage. It is both invalid and not biblical.

The pope is not pro gay marriage.

 

[Michael16]

@James83,

No, gay “ marriage “ is not accepted by the Church as it contradicts the Word of God.

Marriage, as defined in the Bible and Holy Mother Church teaches; is between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation and the raising of children and for everyone in the family to help each other get to heaven.

As for unity, we have three camps of Catholics:

A: The Traditionalists. They’re the pre Vatican 2 Catholics.

B: Conservatives. Like me. We lean towards tradition and conservative Catholic values but not hard core Trads like A.

C: Liberals. These are the “ progressives “ like Fr James Martin who support non Catholic issues but are just Catholic enough not to leave or be kicked out for heresy.

 

[James83]

Thanks. I’m in the UK, and almost every religion is embracing the current progressive agenda (even/especially the Church of England).

You wrote ‘as defined in the Bible and Holy Mother Church teaches’ - I’m curious as you have two conditions here. What happens if the position of Holy Mother Church changes?

Thanks

 

[Michael16]

@James83,

Holy Mother Church will never stray from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

No need to worry about that.

As for here in America, the Church is pretty much the only institution that’s resisting the progressive agenda; we may have the conservative mainline Protestant denominations as well.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I admit I’m possibly completely misunderstanding the Baptist faith, and therein could lie the problem

I get what you’re saying.

The general path of Baptist sermons came across as pop psychology bookended with ‘Jesus said

Gotcha. What did you think of the Mass on YouTube?

But reading/having read the Bible surely helps, and it isn’t simply a case of Bible study vs. living the Gospel?

I’ve got no problem with reading the bible. I’ve got nothing against studying the bible. I do both. But I think study should go beyond memorizing chapter & verse & more towards discipleship.

At Church, I was amazed at how many hadn’t read the Bible.

In my experience I noticed many Catholics did not know the bible as well as I did. Getting to know them I came to realize they know the Gospel far better than I.

 

[Michael16]

@James83,

There’s a stereotype about Catholics:

Protestants believe we don’t read the Bible.

Spend some time here and you’ll see Catholics here with a depth of Scripture knowledge that would and does put a Protestant pastor to shame.

@Justin_Mary:

I think it’s a shame that more Catholics don’t get in up and close with Scripture; really delve right in and know it, live it and love it.

We’d keep more Catholics that way.

 

[Lara]

If you attend Mass for three years, you will hear about 60% of the Bible. There are three years, A, B, and C for the readings at Mass. The first reading is always from the Old Testament and often has a link to the Gospel reading and there is a second reading in between. So there are three readings each Mass, two from the New Testament.

I have read the New Testament once or twice on my own. To be honest, it’s hard to forget any of it. I don’t feel a need to study it with a fine tuned comb. I’ve heard readings for many years by now.

The challenge doesn’t lie in knowing what to do; it lies in carrying out Jesus’s teachings. It is incredibly difficult to love my neighbour, for instance, when he uses his leafblower for a centimetre of snow. Practicing the cardinal virtues is not easy.

While the readings are all right, I mainly go to Mass for the Eucharist. I have very little money right now, and I’m glad I don’t have to put much in the collection box. I couldn’t afford a tithe for instance. Do Baptists tithe?

 

[James83]

@Justin_Mary

Thanks. All understood/appreciated.

Regarding your question of what I thought of the Mass (…always interesting to have the perspective of an outsider!):

1. Structured/organized
2. Conducted with humility/lack of self
3. Message was to the point
4. Clothing preferable to what I’m used to seeing on stage (and removes potential problems I previously mentioned)
5. Simple setup, uncluttered
6. Church appears almost empty?

Is attendance at Catholic services in the West on a sharp decrease?

 

[Michael16]

That’s something I wanted to mention to @James83.

That just paying attention at Mass and you absorb so much Scripture and theology. It’s a rich treasure that I’m always getting richer in my Faith.