Converts from Islam

[Sister_Amy]

I am not proud of much of the filth that is spewed forth from Hollywood, nor of much of the Code-Pink, ANSWER, leftist, defeatist, anti-American tripe that is spouted by much of the ivory tower elitists.

But I am proud of the fact that they are free to make fools of themselves in public. I don’t have to agree with it, nor do I have to respect it, just their rights to say/act in that manner.

I am religious, and I seek not to flee from that. That is not what my Lord and Saviour taught. He taught me that I am to be a light in the darkness, and by my words and actions to show others the way to the Truth, so that I might lead others to Him, and He will lead them to His Father for eternity. I cannot be a light and a beacon from the desert.

I don’t want my children to be abused or mocked in school because of their faith. I don’t want to see naked women on billboards when I drive them to school. I don’t want to live in fear that someone will break into my house or car. I don’t want my children to be taught in schools that homosexuality is okay and that premarital sex is okay, to live in a culture without shame. I don’t want my daughters growing up teased about their clothes or about their bodies. Just some of many reasons…

 

[Booklover]

Why? You are proud of a country so vulgar, so laden with crime and decadence, that religious people flee to the desert?

Excuse me? Real virtue has to be freely chosen, it cannot be imposed otherwise it’s just the semblance of it! Yes, we do have lots of things wrong here but in a free society, people can always change their ways.

This article expresses it a lot better than I can:

Let us concede at the outset that, in a free society, freedom will frequently be used badly. The Islamic critics have a point when they deplore our high crime rates and illegitimacy rates, and the triviality and vulgarity of our popular culture. Freedom, by definition, includes freedom to do good or evil, to act nobly or basely. Thus we should not be surprised that there is a considerable amount of vice, licentiousness, and vulgarity in a free society. Given the warped timber of humanity, freedom becomes a forum for the expression of human flaws and weaknesses.

But if freedom brings out the worst in people, it also brings out the best. The millions of Americans who live decent, praiseworthy lives deserve our highest admiration because they have opted for the good when the good is not the only available option. Even amidst the temptations that a rich and free society offers, they have remained on the straight path. Their virtue has special luster because it is freely chosen. The free society does not guarantee virtue, any more than it guarantees happiness. But it allows for the pursuit of both, a pursuit rendered all the more meaningful and profound because success is not guaranteed, it has to be won through personal striving.

**By contrast, the authoritarian society that Islamic fundamentalists advocate undermines the possibility of virtue. If the supply of virtue is insufficient in free societies, it is almost nonexistent in Islamic societies because coerced virtues are not virtues at all. Consider the woman who is required to wear a veil. There is no modesty in this, because the woman is being compelled. Compulsion cannot produce virtue, it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue. **

I sincerely wish you Good Luck!

Vickie

 

[txsoldier94]

I don’t want my children to be abused or mocked in school because of their faith. I don’t want to see naked women on billboards when I drive them to school. I don’t want to live in fear that someone will break into my house or car. I don’t want my children to be taught in schools that homosexuality is okay and that premarital sex is okay, to live in a culture without shame. I don’t want my daughters growing up teased about their clothes or about their bodies. Just some of many reasons…

Amy,

You have choices, you can homeschool (as we do); you can place your children in private schools, you can be closely involved with your local school.

Every child gets teased…every child gets taught things that are not right. You can deal with that by being involved in your children’s education, regardless of where they get it.

As for the billboards, you can deal with those by contacting the company that is using that type of advertising and informing them that you will never use their produces. We don’t deal with much of that because we decided, as a family, to eliminate cable/satellite/etc TV from our house. We watch only VHS/DVD and we talk to our children (we have 4 from 14-4yo) about what we do and see. You cannot shelter them forever. Your daughters stand a damnsight better chance of living happy and free lives under our system of government (for all of its flaws) that in any supposedly Islamic state. Or is there a place you would rather raise your family?

Mik

 

[txsoldier94]

Compulsion cannot produce virtue, it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue.

I sincerely wish you Good Luck!

Vickie

Vickie,

Said much better by you than my clumsy phrasings…

:bowdown2:

Mik

 

[Sister_Amy]

There is no compulsion in religion.

Qur’an 2:256.

 

[AgnosTheist]

This is kind of silly, really. It’s not two “imams” versus nations. It is SCHOLARS agains RULERS. The scholars have the knowledge, while the rulers act with their corruption and prevent the scholars from teaching the laypeople any better.

We both know for a fact that there are many Scholars in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan & Taliban. So you are still down to 2 vs a couple of nations.

I did think about it. I DO think that a man might commit murder without being a serial killer, without being a further danger to society, and I do believe what Jesus said–that forgiveness is important.

Thats it??? Well then you sure failed to think about these very important points.

1. Selling forgiveness allows wealthy transgressors to buy their way out of murder.
2. Letting murderers loose poses a greater hazard to society. If they killed again, you deserved blame as well.
3. Jesus did not say anything about recieving money for forgiveness.

And I do believe that JUSTICE is set by God–and if that means allowing the victim’s family to set the punishment or pardon it, then such is justice. Yes.

Look at it this way, if the end result doesnt really amount to justice, then that proves that you are clinging to a FALSE God. A false religion. Here is your chance to free yourself from falsehood.

By the fact that apostasy has to be judged by a Muslim judge in a Muslim state and satisfy certain conditions before the death penalty is applied.

what conditions?

 

[Sister_Amy]

We both know for a fact that there are many Scholars in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan & Taliban. So you are still down to 2 vs a couple of nations.

Scholars in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan & Taliban??

Do you recall the story I told about the scholar in Medina who was expelled, not allowed to make hajj/umrah because of saying a hadith was weak? That was a government reaction to a SCHOLAR. My own sheikh talks about why he came to the USA–because scholars weren’t allowed to teach Islam and the government was forcing them to give certain sermons and stuff against Islam.

It’s the same now. Look at actual scholars–the Arabic word 'ulema. What you will find is how they disagree with COUNTRIES, the leaders of which likely don’t know much of anything about real Islam. The scholars will condemn acts like Pakistan’s ‘state of emergency’ and the Sudan teddy bear fiasco, and the revocation of the Saudi lawyer’s license… Egyptian torture, Palestinian suicide bombings… the SCHOLARS condemn these things, if only people were listening.

 

[Booklover]

There is no compulsion in religion.

Qur’an 2:256.

Wrong! Doesn’t the Quran state that Allah only accepts Islam and that if anyone chooses any other religion it won’t be accepted of him?

Iranian ex-Muslim Amil Imani:

Islam proclaims itself as the only legitimate religion for the entire world, grudgingly granting minor recognition to Judaism and Christianity from whom it has liberally plagiarized many of its dogma. Jews and Christians are allowed to live under the rule of Islam as dhimmis and must pay a special religious tax of jazyyeh. Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Baha’is, members of other religions, agnostics, or atheists are not even allowed to live practicing their belief or disbelief.

• Islam actively suppresses and even prohibits the practice of other religions, including those of the “people of the book,” Jews and Christians. There is not a single church or synagogue in the cradle of Islam, Saudi Arabia, while thousands of mosques dot the tolerating and welcoming non-Moslem lands. Islamic countries that allow for Jewish and Christian places of worship subject these “people of the book” to numberless subtle and not-so-subtle forms of persecution. Moslems in non-Moslem lands proselytize relentlessly and convert others while any Moslem who leaves Islam is judged as apostate and automatically condemned to death.

Sorry for the quote from FFI, but can’t be helped!

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Wrong! Doesn’t the Quran state that Allah only accepts Islam and that if anyone chooses any other religion it won’t be accepted of him?

Indeed! And I know WHERE! 3:85.

Catholics teach something similar, I’m told. Do Catholics believe God grants salvation to Muslims? If not, you’re in the same boat. I’ve been asked to convert on this board.

They say: “Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).” Say thou: “Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah.” 2:135

The Qur’an also says that Jews and Christians will not have fear on them **as long as **they have accepted all the revelation that has come to them, that they believed and did righteousness.

Religious diversity is a FACT attested to in the Qur’an–that not everyone will believe in Islam. We know it, and accept it.

Sorry for the quote from FFI, but can’t be helped!

Try harder.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Do you recall the story I told about the scholar in Medina who was expelled, not allowed to make hajj/umrah because of saying a hadith was weak? That was a government reaction to a SCHOLAR.

I cant really make any comment on that until I see the original report. Do you happen to know a link to this story?

My own sheikh talks about why he came to the USA–because scholars weren’t allowed to teach Islam and the government was forcing them to give certain sermons and stuff against Islam.

of all the muslim countries out there, dont you find it a little wierd how he had to choose an infidel nation? and then YOU had the guts to allege that we infidels are suppressing religions.

It’s the same now. Look at actual scholars–the Arabic word 'ulema. What you will find is how they disagree with COUNTRIES, the leaders of which likely don’t know much of anything about real Islam. The scholars will condemn acts like Pakistan’s ‘state of emergency’ and the Sudan teddy bear fiasco, and the revocation of the Saudi lawyer’s license… Egyptian torture, Palestinian suicide bombings… the SCHOLARS condemn these things, if only people were listening.

Im more interested in seeing SCHOLARS condemn the policies of Saudi Arabia (the heart of islam). Did they? The policies on apostacy, women’s rights, freedom, etc.

By the fact that apostasy has to be judged by a Muslim judge in a Muslim state and satisfy certain conditions before the death penalty is applied.

Hey I really want to hear about the ‘conditions’.

 

[mchale]

There is no compulsion in religion.

Qur’an 2:256.

With respect, your quote from the Qur’an, contradicts your earlier stated desires not to live in a culture that allows many things that you find distasteful. The only way to live in a culture where all obey Shari’ah is to live in a culture where all are forced to follow Shari’ah.

For almost 1500 years, Islam has been a major force in Northern Africa and Western Asia. It is true that Islamic Courts have sentenced Christians to death for preaching the Gospel in lands that were controlled by Muslim leaders. It is true that Apostates were executed for their apostatcy.

Now, if this had all been things that happened in the past, then I would accept your quote from the Qur’an; after all, Christianity’s history is also often soiled with blood. The difference is that the Catholic Church, the Orthodox and the vast majority of Protestants and Evangelicals have foresworn violence in the name of God. It seems to remain far to popular with Muslims.

–
Bill

 

[Sister_Amy]

I cant really make any comment on that until I see the original report. Do you happen to know a link to this story?

I’m sorry, I don’t. This happened a while ago and I don’t even think it would be reported much in the news.

of all the muslim countries out there, dont you find it a little wierd how he had to choose an infidel nation? and then YOU had the guts to allege that we infidels are suppressing religions.

I don’t use that word. He came the to USA because he was offered a job here. The point was that he couldn’t stay in Syria.

Im more interested in seeing SCHOLARS condemn the policies of Saudi Arabia (the heart of islam). Did they? The policies on apostacy, women’s rights, freedom, etc.

Let me do some research and I’ll see what I can find for you.

Hey I really want to hear about the ‘conditions’.

There are 4.

1. Not under force
2. Not insane/mentally unstable
3. Not ignorant of what he is doing
4. Not in doubt about something

 

[Sister_Amy]

With respect, your quote from the Qur’an, contradicts your earlier stated desires not to live in a culture that allows many things that you find distasteful. The only way to live in a culture where all obey Shari’ah is to live in a culture where all are forced to follow Shari’ah.

Not really. I am living in a society in which it is very difficult if not impossible for me to abstain from doing something which is in fact forbidden in my religion–dealing with interest. So I choose to not live in such a culture. People are ALWAYS subject to a certain law. Here I am subject to American law and I’m forced to follow it instead, even if I disagree with it.

The difference is that the Catholic Church, the Orthodox and the vast majority of Protestants and Evangelicals have foresworn violence in the name of God. It seems to remain far to popular with Muslims.

Facts on the ground in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Serbia just to name a few places, contradict what you have just said. There is violence–from Christians and Muslims (and Jews too.)

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… The purpose of Shari’ah is to protect 5 things. Life, lineage, property, intellect, and deen. I would prefer to live under Shari’ah law, and hopefully soon enough I will. I believe it is a just system…

emphasis mine]

Hello Sister Amy,

That is a stunning confession. I’ve been wondering for hours why you would say that.

Could you name me a country - that you aspire to -which currently operates under Shari’ah law?

 

[Rocky]

Not really. I am living in a society in which it is very difficult if not impossible for me to abstain from doing something which is in fact forbidden in my religion–dealing with interest. So I choose to not live in such a culture. People are ALWAYS subject to a certain law. Here I am subject to American law and I’m forced to follow it instead, even if I disagree with it

Hi Sister Amy,

I believe it is possible to live in the US without paying interest— One can rent instead of buying a domicile. I know of many people, including some in my own family, who do not own a home out of choice and actually prefer to rent. I pay off my credit card bills monthly, so I never pay interest charges I make. I am able to do this by not buying what I cannot pay for at the end of the month. Many people use credit cards in the same way. I do receive interest on my savings account (not much:shrug: ) but I do not think that is the type of interest that bothers you. I have always owned my car for at least 10 years, and by putting some money in my savings account each month, I am able to drive it off the lot fully paid for.

Now, not all people are able to do as I do. But for people who feel that dealing with interest infringes on their faith life (I do not feel this way, I just don’t like to pay it) they can use better money management.

But I, too, am interested in exactly where you would like to live under perfect sharia law. Is there such a place, and where is it?

 

[mchale]

Not really. I am living in a society in which it is very difficult if not impossible for me to abstain from doing something which is in fact forbidden in my religion–dealing with interest. So I choose to not live in such a culture. People are ALWAYS subject to a certain law. Here I am subject to American law and I’m forced to follow it instead, even if I disagree with it.

There is a huge difference between Islamic law and American law. Shari’ah and those who enforce it are answerable to no one on this Earth. If their interpretation of Shari’ah differs from your interpretation, well, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

In contrast, in America, if you don’t like the law, you can work to change the law. You can also work to vote out of office many of the officials who are responsible for interpreting the law or at the very least, those who appoint those who interpret the law.

Facts on the ground in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Serbia just to name a few places, contradict what you have just said. There is violence–from Christians and Muslims (and Jews too.)

There is a difference between violence by members of a group, and violence sanctioned by a group. The Catholic Church certainly did not sanction the Iraq war, nor did they sanction the war in Afghanistan. Christians are involved in both sides of the conflict in Serbia which I think shows the fact that it is not primarily religion which motivates Christians in that conflict.

But lets look a little closer at Afghanistan for the moment. If we look back at 2001, we can recall that Bin Laden was living in Afghanistan. He freely admitted his role in the deaths of over 2000 civilians (including children!) on September 11th. The Taliban, a group that claimed to enforce Islamic Law, decided to protect him rather than hand him over to legal authorities. In order to limit the ability of Al Quaeda to operate from Afghanistan, the United States had little choice but to invade. Either we must assume that the Taliban were corrupt, or Shari’ah is (or both are). Either way, it does present a picture of Shari’ah that makes it appear in any way preferable to the law of the United States.

–
Bill

 

[ralphinal]

I must have missed it. Why is apostacy from Islam considered treason?

 

[txsoldier94]

I must have missed it. Why is apostacy from Islam considered treason?

Because Islam is a code of government, not (just) a religion. So to turn away from Islam is…more like a (slave) rebellion rather than treason…but hey…the penalties remain the same.

Mik

 

[ralphinal]

Because Islam is a code of government, not (just) a religion. So to turn away from Islam is…more like a (slave) rebellion rather than treason…but hey…the penalties remain the same.

Mik

That is what I thought. My follow-up, then, is does it call it treason in the Koran, or make it seem to be the same?

But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Where in the Bible is this quote?

 

[Sister_Amy]

That is what I thought. My follow-up, then, is does it call it treason in the Koran, or make it seem to be the same?

This is not an issue which appears in the Qur’an–rather, it is an authentic hadith.

Where in the Bible is this quote?

Deuteronomy 13:9, KJV But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
…and it goes on…
13:10
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Here is another powerful verse in the Bible:
Leviticus 24:15-16 Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.