Converts from Islam

[AgnosTheist]

Let me do some research and I’ll see what I can find for you.

any luck?

There are 4.

1. Not under force
2. Not insane/mentally unstable
3. Not ignorant of what he is doing
4. Not in doubt about something

oh the same 4 conditions you went through when you swtiched religions. do you really need a judge for that? the last time a sharia judge declared an afghan insane for converting to christianity. remember that one? its those kinds of lunacies which makes us think that people who convert INTO islam are insane.

so the bottome line is in sharia law muslims who come to sincerely believe that there is a better religion than islam is sentenced to death. thats practically a form of religious compulsion. dont you agree?

 

[Sister_Amy]

any luck?

I’m sorry. My net died last night and I couldn’t check much of anything.

No I don’t think it’s compulsion, yes a judge is needed and if the judge says the person is insane then he wouldn’t be killed–or if he were ignorant or in doubt or forced. there are no shari’a judges in afghanistan, ok?

[/QUOTE]

 

[AgnosTheist]

No I don’t think it’s compulsion, yes a judge is needed and if the judge says the person is insane then he wouldn’t be killed–or if he were ignorant or in doubt or forced. there are no shari’a judges in afghanistan, ok?

what do you call this then:

msnbc.msn.com/id/11955289/

Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country’s Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

But prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

Islamic Laws and Trials require Sharia Judges, does it not?

You know, if trials are held for those leaving Islam its only fair that Trials be held for those entering Islam. Like you. Perhaps questions would be raised regarding YOUR mental fitness.

My dear, I have proven yet another instance of Sharia injustice.

The true God cannot possibly be a champion of injustice. What have you gotten yourself into.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Haven’t I already said that Afghanistan is not following shari’ah law? I’m sorry but your example doesn’t apply at all. Shari’ah is just… and apparently the Afghanis are not. Too bad.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Haven’t I already said that Afghanistan is not following shari’ah law? I’m sorry but your example doesn’t apply at all.

thats your unauthorized opinion.

Shari’ah is just… and apparently the Afghanis are not. Too bad.

Then please explain where is the justice in holding trials for those leaving islam and not for people like you who enter islam. you are equally liable for being questioned for your mental stability.

Or are you going to tell us that true sharia law under a caliphate requires trials for every new convert to islam?

 

[Sister_Amy]

thats your unauthorized opinion.

Is mine less authorized than yours?

Then please explain where is the justice in holding trials for those leaving islam and not for people like you who enter islam. you are equally liable for being questioned for your mental stability.

Or are you going to tell us that true sharia law under a caliphate requires trials for every new convert to islam?

Nope. There was a Muslim man (whose name unfortunately escapes me at the moment…Hudhayfah I think) who was fighting a disbeliever, who, as the Muslim was about to kill him, he declared the shahadah (testified his faith in Islam.) The Muslim proceeded to kill him, and he reported the event back to Muhammad who became very angry at the news. While the Muslim declared that the man only said shahadah to save his life, Muhammad rebuked him asking if he could see the man’s heart, and how did he know?

In Islam, if a person declares he is Muslim, then for all intents and purposes he is to be treated as a Muslim.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Is mine less authorized than yours?

No. But with regards to sharia law, yours is less authorized than the taliban & saudi arabia. Im just an outside observer who goes along with the higher authority.

In Islam, if a person declares he is Muslim, then for all intents and purposes he is to be treated as a Muslim.

And there is the injustice and the discrimination. People can go in without hassle, but for those who wants to go out you put him in trial and when you verify his sincerity and sound of mind, you kill him if you cant convince him back. Sharia Law clearly violates the Golden Rule. You people deserve the same measure you give others.

 

[mchale]

Haven’t I already said that Afghanistan is not following shari’ah law? I’m sorry but your example doesn’t apply at all. Shari’ah is just… and apparently the Afghanis are not. Too bad.

The problem here is that who is the one who gets to decide who is and is not following Shari’ah? Certainly the Taliban seem to think that they are following Shari’ah. How do you determine what is and what is not a just interpretation of the law?

It is fine to have the Shari’ah set up as a moral concept that people can choose to live by. The problem is that there is a huge difference between using it as a moral standard and using it as a legal one. Humans are by definition flawed and their intrepretations are going to be flawed. Over time, with no recourse to address flawed interpretations, the law it self becomes unjust.

Hence, while I would love it if the United States would adopt a civil law more in accord with the precepts of the Bible, I would never want the Church to be the arbiters of American Law. Only by allowing the people a say in the law is there any chance of redressing bad laws or more importantly bad interpretations of the law.

–
Bill

 

[Sister_Amy]

If you aren’t going to listen to what I have to say, then I need not waste my time saying it.

 

[AgnosTheist]

If you aren’t going to listen to what I have to say, then I need not waste my time saying it.

for me, your time was useful. i learned a lot of new stuff from you. the trials, the conditions, where you get your opinions. thanks. i’m pretty much done here. I will just await your research, if you can find any formal scholarly complaints against the inhumane policies of saudi arabia. good luck.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Do you want to read about how Saudis treat al-Qaeda?

And can you tell me which “inhumane” policy you want condemned in particular?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Do you want to read about how Saudis treat al-Qaeda?

thanks for the offer but i think i already know. tortured and beheaded. alqaida wants to overthrow the monarchy.

And can you tell me which “inhumane” policy you want condemned in particular?

i would prefer hearing that from muslim scholars themselves.

 

[Sister_Amy]

(I’m looking)

Tell you what, though. What I said is:

The scholars will condemn acts like Pakistan’s ‘state of emergency’ and the Sudan teddy bear fiasco, and the revocation of the Saudi lawyer’s license… Egyptian torture, Palestinian suicide bombings… the SCHOLARS condemn these things, if only people were listening.

I mentioned these things, and somehow that got twisted to Saudi policies. Forgive me for getting confused if I did–but it was these things I was talking about, not general Saudi policies.

 

[pismopal]

I don’t want my children to be abused or mocked in school because of their faith. I don’t want to see naked women on billboards when I drive them to school. I don’t want to live in fear that someone will break into my house or car. I don’t want my children to be taught in schools that homosexuality is okay and that premarital sex is okay, to live in a culture without shame. I don’t want my daughters growing up teased about their clothes or about their bodies. Just some of many reasons…

I don’t want my children to be persecuted because of their faith. I don’t want to see people beheaded because they don’t believe in islam. I don’t want my children to be taught that it is g-d’s desire that homosexuals are to be executed alng with others who fall into allah’s displeasure. You are very right about American culture and if I were you I would move to an Islamic country ASAP. I want to know when you are leaving so that I can send you a going away present. That is a serious offer Sister…a very nice going away present.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I mentioned these things, and somehow that got twisted to Saudi policies. Forgive me for getting confused if I did–but it was these things I was talking about, not general Saudi policies.

Forgive me for maneuvering it towards the Saudis, but they stand out as Islam’s earthly symbol today.

Fix them up and you would have largely succeeded in fixing Islam’s reputation.

 

[ralphinal]

This is not an issue which appears in the Qur’an–rather, it is an authentic hadith.

Thank you.

Deuteronomy 13:9, KJV But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
…and it goes on…
13:10
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Here is another powerful verse in the Bible:
Leviticus 24:15-16 Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Again, thank you. I will point out that Jesus taught his followers that is someone does not recieve you, leave them and shake the dust off your feet as you go. Major difference with that. Jesus NEVER ordered anyone to be killed. IN fact, he said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

 

[Booklover]

I don’t want my children to be persecuted because of their faith. I don’t want to see people beheaded because they don’t believe in islam. I don’t want my children to be taught that it is g-d’s desire that homosexuals are to be executed alng with others who fall into allah’s displeasure. You are very right about American culture and if I were you I would move to an Islamic country ASAP. I want to know when you are leaving so that I can send you a going away present. That is a serious offer Sister…a very nice going away present.

I’d like to add:

I don’t want to live by the 7th century rules of the ignorant, superstitious and barbaric bedouin arabs where chauvinism, bigotry, haughtiness, arrogance, megalomania, stupidity, greed, lust for sex, disrespect for life and other ignoble qualities such as these, that are the hallmark of Islam were already present as the materia prima in the Arabia where Muhammad launched his prophetic career.

Vickie

 

[planten]

I’d like to add:

I don’t want to live by the 7th century rules of the ignorant, superstitious and barbaric bedouin arabs where chauvinism, bigotry, haughtiness, arrogance, megalomania, stupidity, greed, lust for sex, disrespect for life and other ignoble qualities such as these, that are the hallmark of Islam were already present as the materia prima in the Arabia where Muhammad launched his prophetic career.

Vickie

But these beduin Arabs built a good knowledge base in Spain where many princes of Europe used to come for their education. The Christian Europe was then in dark ages.
There is nothing wrong with Jesus and his teachings. If anything is wrong then it is with the christians. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with Islam. If anything is wrong, it is with the present day Muslims.

But surely, the teachings of islam are far superior to those of christianity. The same fact can easily be verified.

 

[AgnosTheist]

But these beduin Arabs built a good knowledge base in Spain where many princes of Europe used to come for their education. The Christian Europe was then in dark ages.

Much of that credit goes to the spanish jews. When muslims backstabbed the jews (massacred them), so did muslim moorish kingdom began to seriously deteriorate. they just beheaded their goose that lays golden eggs.

But surely, the teachings of islam are far superior to those of christianity. The same fact can easily be verified.

Easily verified huh? LOL! Ok then, start proving it. Name your top 5 islamic teachings that are ‘far superior’ to christian teachings. Good luck.

 

[ralphinal]

But these beduin Arabs built a good knowledge base in Spain where many princes of Europe used to come for their education. The Christian Europe was then in dark ages.
There is nothing wrong with Jesus and his teachings. If anything is wrong then it is with the christians. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with Islam. If anything is wrong, it is with the present day Muslims.

But surely, the teachings of islam are far superior to those of christianity. The same fact can easily be verified.

My memory may be off, but I thought that the Moors were the Muslim version of the North Africans that filled the vacuum left by the fall of Rome.

To say that Islam is superior is a matter of personal thought. You cannot prove that at all in a scientific way.